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So the sun is out today, and it's a glorious day.
Except for one simple thing, and I'll try to explain.
There have been a number of posts here recently concerning foreign and domestic issues and immigrants/refugees etc, and I have had several discussions with folks here about what it means to be "British" and "Proud of England".
My stand is that I have no particular allegiance to this country, and as far as I'm concerned this is just another piece of rock floating on the sea that happens to have been labelled “England”.
We’ve seen a rise in the right-wing politics in France over the past couple of days, as well as a surge of right-wing votes/candidates in Germany, Italy and previously calm Switzerland.
There is the argument that “being proud of your country doesn’t mean your racist”. I agree with that idea, to an extent.
The way I feel, the moment you start saying “Well you live here then you observe our customs and ways” starts to sound a little strange to me. You have nothing to do with the fact that you are English, your parents do. Aside from the language you speak and the geographical location, you are exactly the same as Mehmet/Abdul/Nu-Gyen etc etc, and to insist they follow your traditions merely because they live in the same borders as you strikes me as odd.
But that’s just me.
To be “proud of your country” would suggest that you’ve done something for it. Fought in a war maybe, or just done something other than…well…nothing at all.
Being born here doesn’t make you any more worthy of being “proud to British” in my eyes.
And the fuss that gets caused because some council in Birmingham wants to rename Christmas etc etc is so utterly pointless, it doesn’t affect you at all.
So, to Wookie, YH and everyone else that has been banging on about being proud of being British etc (not specifically you two, but the only two names that spring to mind), I have 1 question:
Why has nobody mentioned the fact it’s St George’s Day today?
I would have thought that staunch UK Supporters might have made a little post about it somewhere.
Except for one simple thing, and I'll try to explain.
There have been a number of posts here recently concerning foreign and domestic issues and immigrants/refugees etc, and I have had several discussions with folks here about what it means to be "British" and "Proud of England".
My stand is that I have no particular allegiance to this country, and as far as I'm concerned this is just another piece of rock floating on the sea that happens to have been labelled “England”.
We’ve seen a rise in the right-wing politics in France over the past couple of days, as well as a surge of right-wing votes/candidates in Germany, Italy and previously calm Switzerland.
There is the argument that “being proud of your country doesn’t mean your racist”. I agree with that idea, to an extent.
The way I feel, the moment you start saying “Well you live here then you observe our customs and ways” starts to sound a little strange to me. You have nothing to do with the fact that you are English, your parents do. Aside from the language you speak and the geographical location, you are exactly the same as Mehmet/Abdul/Nu-Gyen etc etc, and to insist they follow your traditions merely because they live in the same borders as you strikes me as odd.
But that’s just me.
To be “proud of your country” would suggest that you’ve done something for it. Fought in a war maybe, or just done something other than…well…nothing at all.
Being born here doesn’t make you any more worthy of being “proud to British” in my eyes.
And the fuss that gets caused because some council in Birmingham wants to rename Christmas etc etc is so utterly pointless, it doesn’t affect you at all.
So, to Wookie, YH and everyone else that has been banging on about being proud of being British etc (not specifically you two, but the only two names that spring to mind), I have 1 question:
Why has nobody mentioned the fact it’s St George’s Day today?
I would have thought that staunch UK Supporters might have made a little post about it somewhere.
Page:
Meka Dragon wrote:
> We buy foreign cars.
>
> Would you honestly buy a Rover? Foreign cars are better, and indeed,
> cheaper.
Actually I do drive a Rover - for no real reason.
But I'm not defending British industry, I'm saying if people feel that strongly about foreigners "coming over 'ere", then buy British.
Yeah, but come on, Four Weddings and a Funeral, Notting Hill, Briget
> Jone's Diary? Give me Attack of the Clones and Spiderman anyday.
Ah but if you're so pro-British then you should be doing everything you can to support your country, regardless of whether you like it or not.
Otherwise it's hypocritical.
I don't want to go around
> gettign rid of all that's not British.
And that's the knee-jerk reaction from so many people (not you).
Who exactly is "trying to get rid of all that's British"?
Give me an example where this has directly affected you in any way whatsoever.
Everyone has "heard" of these stories, but I have yet to be given any kind of mandate that I feel threatens my perception of what it is to be English.
> We buy foreign cars.
>
> Would you honestly buy a Rover? Foreign cars are better, and indeed,
> cheaper.
Actually I do drive a Rover - for no real reason.
But I'm not defending British industry, I'm saying if people feel that strongly about foreigners "coming over 'ere", then buy British.
Yeah, but come on, Four Weddings and a Funeral, Notting Hill, Briget
> Jone's Diary? Give me Attack of the Clones and Spiderman anyday.
Ah but if you're so pro-British then you should be doing everything you can to support your country, regardless of whether you like it or not.
Otherwise it's hypocritical.
I don't want to go around
> gettign rid of all that's not British.
And that's the knee-jerk reaction from so many people (not you).
Who exactly is "trying to get rid of all that's British"?
Give me an example where this has directly affected you in any way whatsoever.
Everyone has "heard" of these stories, but I have yet to be given any kind of mandate that I feel threatens my perception of what it is to be English.
Your Honour wrote:
You can't ask for a black coffee because you may offend some black
> people.
YH mate, that is utter utter balls.
Where have you ever asked for black coffee and gotten any kind of reply whatsoever to do with race?
Minorites don't celebrate Christmas? Fine, no problem. So why should
> we change the name of it then? If they don't celebrate it, what's the
> problem?
Again, when were you told you had to change the name of christmas?
When? I've never been told that ever.
And as for "c***k" being filtered, it's a racial slur.
It may be another meaning, but the common meaning these days is in reference to Asians and I have no problem with that being filtered.
It's the same as someone saying "Kike".
Both are extremely offensive words, it may mean something else but when the primary meaning is the racial slur then I think it's a good thing it's filtered.
You can't ask for a black coffee because you may offend some black
> people.
YH mate, that is utter utter balls.
Where have you ever asked for black coffee and gotten any kind of reply whatsoever to do with race?
Minorites don't celebrate Christmas? Fine, no problem. So why should
> we change the name of it then? If they don't celebrate it, what's the
> problem?
Again, when were you told you had to change the name of christmas?
When? I've never been told that ever.
And as for "c***k" being filtered, it's a racial slur.
It may be another meaning, but the common meaning these days is in reference to Asians and I have no problem with that being filtered.
It's the same as someone saying "Kike".
Both are extremely offensive words, it may mean something else but when the primary meaning is the racial slur then I think it's a good thing it's filtered.
Meka Dragon wrote:
> At the moment. it wasn't long ago that 'Britpop' was the in thing, and
> given the cyclic nature of the industry, it seems to be just around
> the corner again.
>
*Stops reading and runs away screaming*
> At the moment. it wasn't long ago that 'Britpop' was the in thing, and
> given the cyclic nature of the industry, it seems to be just around
> the corner again.
>
*Stops reading and runs away screaming*
Goatboy wrote:
> You see, "The English" have zero interest in their
> culture.
But what exactly IS our culture? You'd think that would be a simple question, but the fact is many schools don't teach the history of the UK, which I always found a sodd, as in my own reading, I found much of it to be very interesting, and more relevant to say the history of China, which I studied in some depth some years ago.
> Our national food is now Chicken Masala.
Because it tastes good. And it's rather quick and easy, where a roast dinner, just as tasy, does take quite some preparation.
> Our football teams are staffed by foreign players.
In the lower divisions there are quite a few foreign players, simply because they can be bought for smaller fees. The thing about football is that it's all about money and success, and not so much tradition anymore. The desire for success has meant letting go of traditions, like the England team now having a foreign coach.
> We buy foreign cars.
Would you honestly buy a Rover? Foreign cars are better, and indeed, cheaper.
> We flock to see Hollywood films
Yeah, but come on, Four Weddings and a Funeral, Notting Hill, Briget Jone's Diary? Give me Attack of the Clones and Spiderman anyday.
> buy American music
At the moment. it wasn't long ago that 'Britpop' was the in thing, and given the cyclic nature of the industry, it seems to be just around the corner again.
> eat foreign foods.
Traditional English meals tend to be rather rich, and not overly good for the heart, a health balance diet is easier if you also eat 'foreign' foods.
> The only time we, as a nation, even think of "being British"
> is times of war or sporting events.
It's something the whole country takes notice of though, and can feel a part of. If we have a bit of success, it's nice to share it together. (Note, I'm talking sport here, rather than war).
> Apart from that, nobody gives it a second thought.
But should we be giving it a second thought? I don't want to go around gettign rid of all that's not British. I like being able to experience a number of different things in this country. Is it true that in France they have to play a certain level of French language music on their stations? I wouldn't want to say we have to listen to a certain amount of UK produced music, I want to listento decent music from the world around. I don't want to just watch films from the UK, especially not our damn romantic comedies, I want to be able to watch the best movies from around the world.
I like to drive a car that's reliable, and affordable.
I like to eat more than fish and chips, and roast dinners.
Being able to do all of this here makes me happy to like in the UK, rather than anywhere that's stiffled with it's own traditions.
> You see, "The English" have zero interest in their
> culture.
But what exactly IS our culture? You'd think that would be a simple question, but the fact is many schools don't teach the history of the UK, which I always found a sodd, as in my own reading, I found much of it to be very interesting, and more relevant to say the history of China, which I studied in some depth some years ago.
> Our national food is now Chicken Masala.
Because it tastes good. And it's rather quick and easy, where a roast dinner, just as tasy, does take quite some preparation.
> Our football teams are staffed by foreign players.
In the lower divisions there are quite a few foreign players, simply because they can be bought for smaller fees. The thing about football is that it's all about money and success, and not so much tradition anymore. The desire for success has meant letting go of traditions, like the England team now having a foreign coach.
> We buy foreign cars.
Would you honestly buy a Rover? Foreign cars are better, and indeed, cheaper.
> We flock to see Hollywood films
Yeah, but come on, Four Weddings and a Funeral, Notting Hill, Briget Jone's Diary? Give me Attack of the Clones and Spiderman anyday.
> buy American music
At the moment. it wasn't long ago that 'Britpop' was the in thing, and given the cyclic nature of the industry, it seems to be just around the corner again.
> eat foreign foods.
Traditional English meals tend to be rather rich, and not overly good for the heart, a health balance diet is easier if you also eat 'foreign' foods.
> The only time we, as a nation, even think of "being British"
> is times of war or sporting events.
It's something the whole country takes notice of though, and can feel a part of. If we have a bit of success, it's nice to share it together. (Note, I'm talking sport here, rather than war).
> Apart from that, nobody gives it a second thought.
But should we be giving it a second thought? I don't want to go around gettign rid of all that's not British. I like being able to experience a number of different things in this country. Is it true that in France they have to play a certain level of French language music on their stations? I wouldn't want to say we have to listen to a certain amount of UK produced music, I want to listento decent music from the world around. I don't want to just watch films from the UK, especially not our damn romantic comedies, I want to be able to watch the best movies from around the world.
I like to drive a car that's reliable, and affordable.
I like to eat more than fish and chips, and roast dinners.
Being able to do all of this here makes me happy to like in the UK, rather than anywhere that's stiffled with it's own traditions.
I didn't reply to this yesterday as I took the day off work to celebrate St. Georges day. So I'll post my views now.
I have NO PROBLEM at all with other people/cultures etc coming over here and mixing with ours. I love to eat foreign food and I like the times when I go into London so I can see areas where there are different cultures etc.
However, what I do object to is being told to change the way I live/act/talk so I don't offend minorites.
Did you know you can't say you have a c***k* in the top of your curtains unless you can prove there is a Chinese man up there?
You can't ask for a black coffee because you may offend some black people.
Ridiculous!
We've been using these words/phrases for years with no racial intent. How come someone suddenly decided that they are racist?
I agree completely with Meka, other cultures have brough us benefits, but the problem lies when we embrace other cultures so much that it is to our detriment.
Minorites don't celebrate Christmas? Fine, no problem. So why should we change the name of it then? If they don't celebrate it, what's the problem?
I lived in Leicester for two years, and I'm going back their in September to finished my uni course off. I love living there. Why? Because there's so many different races. There is a large Asian community in Leicester, and you also get a lot of foreign students, Spanish, Greek, Chinese, Arab, and God knows what else.
There is a realy mixture of races and it all goes down well. They celebrate their festivals, we celebrate ours. One of the reasons why there's no problems is because of this.
They have thei ways and do them, we can join in the celebrations if we want. And the same other way.
That is how it should work.
*The SR filter wouldn't let me post the word "c***k". Sorry, but that's fudging ridiculuos.
I have NO PROBLEM at all with other people/cultures etc coming over here and mixing with ours. I love to eat foreign food and I like the times when I go into London so I can see areas where there are different cultures etc.
However, what I do object to is being told to change the way I live/act/talk so I don't offend minorites.
Did you know you can't say you have a c***k* in the top of your curtains unless you can prove there is a Chinese man up there?
You can't ask for a black coffee because you may offend some black people.
Ridiculous!
We've been using these words/phrases for years with no racial intent. How come someone suddenly decided that they are racist?
I agree completely with Meka, other cultures have brough us benefits, but the problem lies when we embrace other cultures so much that it is to our detriment.
Minorites don't celebrate Christmas? Fine, no problem. So why should we change the name of it then? If they don't celebrate it, what's the problem?
I lived in Leicester for two years, and I'm going back their in September to finished my uni course off. I love living there. Why? Because there's so many different races. There is a large Asian community in Leicester, and you also get a lot of foreign students, Spanish, Greek, Chinese, Arab, and God knows what else.
There is a realy mixture of races and it all goes down well. They celebrate their festivals, we celebrate ours. One of the reasons why there's no problems is because of this.
They have thei ways and do them, we can join in the celebrations if we want. And the same other way.
That is how it should work.
*The SR filter wouldn't let me post the word "c***k". Sorry, but that's fudging ridiculuos.
It's nothing to do with being ashamed, it's never ever having celebrated it in the 1st place.
I don't know why, and the "We're over-run with darkies" brigade can point fingers at rampant PC and say what they want.
Maybe it's because we, as a nation, are feckless and spare no thought for our identity unless it's things like the World Cup?
How many "I LOVE THE UK!" people here go to the Last Night At The Proms?
Or make an effort to watch British Cinema (Sexy Beast anyone?)?
I don't blame an influx of foreigners and our governments attitudes for the fact we have no sense of our nation's identity.
I think it's more to do with England being fulled to the brim with people that take no interest in England - regardless of foreigners.
Who here can tell me who won what in the Winter Olympics? How many medals did England take home?
What was the name of the woman that set the record for the transatlantic crossing?
Anyone?
(runs to quickly check the net for the answers....yeah right)
You see, "The English" have zero interest in their culture.
Our national food is now Chicken Masala. Our football teams are staffed by foreign players. We buy foreign cars. We flock to see Hollywood films, buy American music, eat foreign foods.
The only time we, as a nation, even think of "being British" is times of war or sporting events.
Apart from that, nobody gives it a second thought.
Which is EXACTLY why nobody mentioned St George's Day yesterday.
Not through a fear of being bigotted but the simple fact you either
(a) Forgot
(b) Didn't care anyway
Don't lay the blame for "The English" not celebrating it's culture at the feet of Johnny-Foreigner.
Blame a nation that has more people voting for Big Brother than in the elections.
Our country's infrastructure in is disrepair and neglect?
Don't blame government concentrating on PC policy. Blame over a decade of privitisations, layoffs, quangos and people put in charge of areas they know nothing about.
If anyone here thinks our problems have anything to do with foreigners being here? I guess maybe we should have concentrated on mainting our sense of self rather than expanding across the globe and creating "The British Empire" perhaps? Maybe instead of colonising India we should have dealt with unemployment here? Instead of selling arms to Indochina, Malaysia, East Timoor etc, we could have spent that money paying teachers more then we do train drivers?
The fact this country is a toilet has more to do with public apathy than it does any foreign nationals being here.
It has to do with the fact that we have the highest tax-bands in Europe, yet enjoy one of the lowest standards of living.
It has to be with the fact that we pay more for public services, yet meekly accept another tax hike disguised as National Insurance contributions.
It has to do with the fact that we, as a nation, are more interested in what's on tv and who will win Pop Idol than we are in the choices that affect our real, day-to-day lives.
Don't tell me the reason you don't have a job is because a disabled person was chosen over you or a dark-skinned person was chosen over you.
Stop blaming others for the fact that you should have worked harder, payed more attention at school and be more aware of UK politics.
It's not Mr Patel's fault that you expect to be handed a living simply because you were born here.
It's nobodies fault but our own that we have no sense of identity.
It's laziness and apathy that is the reason we have one of the most draconian governments this side of North Korea.
Not immigrants.
And it still doesn't change the fact that not one of you people talking about the problems of England being laid at the feet of foreigners mentioned, not once, St Georges day.
You either forgot or didn't care, otherwise you would have made mention of it because you are "proud to be British".
This blinkered "I love my country" view is fine if you live by that.
But it seems to be a convenient viewpoint when things are bad for you, "Bloody darkies" are to blame for the fact this country sucks.
Nobody else is to blame for the fact that voter apathy is at an all-time high, hardly anyone can tell me their MP or even the email address for Downing St.
It's not foreigners, it's our own lethargy and neglect to blame for the fact that "England", whatever that is, has no sense of itself.
I don't know why, and the "We're over-run with darkies" brigade can point fingers at rampant PC and say what they want.
Maybe it's because we, as a nation, are feckless and spare no thought for our identity unless it's things like the World Cup?
How many "I LOVE THE UK!" people here go to the Last Night At The Proms?
Or make an effort to watch British Cinema (Sexy Beast anyone?)?
I don't blame an influx of foreigners and our governments attitudes for the fact we have no sense of our nation's identity.
I think it's more to do with England being fulled to the brim with people that take no interest in England - regardless of foreigners.
Who here can tell me who won what in the Winter Olympics? How many medals did England take home?
What was the name of the woman that set the record for the transatlantic crossing?
Anyone?
(runs to quickly check the net for the answers....yeah right)
You see, "The English" have zero interest in their culture.
Our national food is now Chicken Masala. Our football teams are staffed by foreign players. We buy foreign cars. We flock to see Hollywood films, buy American music, eat foreign foods.
The only time we, as a nation, even think of "being British" is times of war or sporting events.
Apart from that, nobody gives it a second thought.
Which is EXACTLY why nobody mentioned St George's Day yesterday.
Not through a fear of being bigotted but the simple fact you either
(a) Forgot
(b) Didn't care anyway
Don't lay the blame for "The English" not celebrating it's culture at the feet of Johnny-Foreigner.
Blame a nation that has more people voting for Big Brother than in the elections.
Our country's infrastructure in is disrepair and neglect?
Don't blame government concentrating on PC policy. Blame over a decade of privitisations, layoffs, quangos and people put in charge of areas they know nothing about.
If anyone here thinks our problems have anything to do with foreigners being here? I guess maybe we should have concentrated on mainting our sense of self rather than expanding across the globe and creating "The British Empire" perhaps? Maybe instead of colonising India we should have dealt with unemployment here? Instead of selling arms to Indochina, Malaysia, East Timoor etc, we could have spent that money paying teachers more then we do train drivers?
The fact this country is a toilet has more to do with public apathy than it does any foreign nationals being here.
It has to do with the fact that we have the highest tax-bands in Europe, yet enjoy one of the lowest standards of living.
It has to be with the fact that we pay more for public services, yet meekly accept another tax hike disguised as National Insurance contributions.
It has to do with the fact that we, as a nation, are more interested in what's on tv and who will win Pop Idol than we are in the choices that affect our real, day-to-day lives.
Don't tell me the reason you don't have a job is because a disabled person was chosen over you or a dark-skinned person was chosen over you.
Stop blaming others for the fact that you should have worked harder, payed more attention at school and be more aware of UK politics.
It's not Mr Patel's fault that you expect to be handed a living simply because you were born here.
It's nobodies fault but our own that we have no sense of identity.
It's laziness and apathy that is the reason we have one of the most draconian governments this side of North Korea.
Not immigrants.
And it still doesn't change the fact that not one of you people talking about the problems of England being laid at the feet of foreigners mentioned, not once, St Georges day.
You either forgot or didn't care, otherwise you would have made mention of it because you are "proud to be British".
This blinkered "I love my country" view is fine if you live by that.
But it seems to be a convenient viewpoint when things are bad for you, "Bloody darkies" are to blame for the fact this country sucks.
Nobody else is to blame for the fact that voter apathy is at an all-time high, hardly anyone can tell me their MP or even the email address for Downing St.
It's not foreigners, it's our own lethargy and neglect to blame for the fact that "England", whatever that is, has no sense of itself.
If we kicked out all the 'foreigners' were would I get my Chinese food from?
Other cultures have brought us good things too you know.
Shame that some people will scream that all foreiners should leave, then cheer on an Arsenal team containing people from France, Cameroon and Holland, then go for a kebab.
But I had no idea it was St Georges Day yesterday. Not one mention of it on the radio, but St Patricks Day is rather rammed down your throat, something I'm not fond of, as people tend to get really drunk, and some really drunk people can be nasty.
Am I patriotic? No, not really, I'll be cheering on our football team in the world cup, and I care about the country in the ways it can effect me.
It's a shame St George's Day isn't even mentioned, I mean Canada have a Canada day, which is celebrated by all to no offence, why would anyone be offended by St George's Day?
Other cultures have brought us good things too you know.
Shame that some people will scream that all foreiners should leave, then cheer on an Arsenal team containing people from France, Cameroon and Holland, then go for a kebab.
But I had no idea it was St Georges Day yesterday. Not one mention of it on the radio, but St Patricks Day is rather rammed down your throat, something I'm not fond of, as people tend to get really drunk, and some really drunk people can be nasty.
Am I patriotic? No, not really, I'll be cheering on our football team in the world cup, and I care about the country in the ways it can effect me.
It's a shame St George's Day isn't even mentioned, I mean Canada have a Canada day, which is celebrated by all to no offence, why would anyone be offended by St George's Day?
Frogy, you are exactly the sort of problem we face as a race and a nation.
Whilst I disagree with Wookiee, he puts his points across as best as he can - he gives reasons and answers for how he feels.
And as such I would never tell him he was "wrong". I disagree 100% with his views, but he takes the time to try and explain why.
You, on the other hand, really don't belong in a situation where others have to listen to your bigotted crap.
Whilst I disagree with Wookiee, he puts his points across as best as he can - he gives reasons and answers for how he feels.
And as such I would never tell him he was "wrong". I disagree 100% with his views, but he takes the time to try and explain why.
You, on the other hand, really don't belong in a situation where others have to listen to your bigotted crap.
I HATE St. Georges day. I have to march with the scouts. Not even thinking about going this year, though.
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