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So the sun is out today, and it's a glorious day.
Except for one simple thing, and I'll try to explain.
There have been a number of posts here recently concerning foreign and domestic issues and immigrants/refugees etc, and I have had several discussions with folks here about what it means to be "British" and "Proud of England".
My stand is that I have no particular allegiance to this country, and as far as I'm concerned this is just another piece of rock floating on the sea that happens to have been labelled “England”.
We’ve seen a rise in the right-wing politics in France over the past couple of days, as well as a surge of right-wing votes/candidates in Germany, Italy and previously calm Switzerland.
There is the argument that “being proud of your country doesn’t mean your racist”. I agree with that idea, to an extent.
The way I feel, the moment you start saying “Well you live here then you observe our customs and ways” starts to sound a little strange to me. You have nothing to do with the fact that you are English, your parents do. Aside from the language you speak and the geographical location, you are exactly the same as Mehmet/Abdul/Nu-Gyen etc etc, and to insist they follow your traditions merely because they live in the same borders as you strikes me as odd.
But that’s just me.
To be “proud of your country” would suggest that you’ve done something for it. Fought in a war maybe, or just done something other than…well…nothing at all.
Being born here doesn’t make you any more worthy of being “proud to British” in my eyes.
And the fuss that gets caused because some council in Birmingham wants to rename Christmas etc etc is so utterly pointless, it doesn’t affect you at all.
So, to Wookie, YH and everyone else that has been banging on about being proud of being British etc (not specifically you two, but the only two names that spring to mind), I have 1 question:
Why has nobody mentioned the fact it’s St George’s Day today?
I would have thought that staunch UK Supporters might have made a little post about it somewhere.
Except for one simple thing, and I'll try to explain.
There have been a number of posts here recently concerning foreign and domestic issues and immigrants/refugees etc, and I have had several discussions with folks here about what it means to be "British" and "Proud of England".
My stand is that I have no particular allegiance to this country, and as far as I'm concerned this is just another piece of rock floating on the sea that happens to have been labelled “England”.
We’ve seen a rise in the right-wing politics in France over the past couple of days, as well as a surge of right-wing votes/candidates in Germany, Italy and previously calm Switzerland.
There is the argument that “being proud of your country doesn’t mean your racist”. I agree with that idea, to an extent.
The way I feel, the moment you start saying “Well you live here then you observe our customs and ways” starts to sound a little strange to me. You have nothing to do with the fact that you are English, your parents do. Aside from the language you speak and the geographical location, you are exactly the same as Mehmet/Abdul/Nu-Gyen etc etc, and to insist they follow your traditions merely because they live in the same borders as you strikes me as odd.
But that’s just me.
To be “proud of your country” would suggest that you’ve done something for it. Fought in a war maybe, or just done something other than…well…nothing at all.
Being born here doesn’t make you any more worthy of being “proud to British” in my eyes.
And the fuss that gets caused because some council in Birmingham wants to rename Christmas etc etc is so utterly pointless, it doesn’t affect you at all.
So, to Wookie, YH and everyone else that has been banging on about being proud of being British etc (not specifically you two, but the only two names that spring to mind), I have 1 question:
Why has nobody mentioned the fact it’s St George’s Day today?
I would have thought that staunch UK Supporters might have made a little post about it somewhere.
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It made me titter today when I actually found out that St.George was in fact a Turk and had never set foot in this country. If he had no doubt he would have recieved generous benefits and free bus passes in place of ones for OAPs.
But I feel it sad that people actually do not feel and patriotism to their own country. I myself would fight to the death for England/GB. We should take a page out of the Americans book - show pride in your country. We seem to forget that it was only 63 years ago that britain was unashamedly patriotic. And all the years before that, leading to a point today that people are to afraid to stand up for whats right in their own country. I say all this as a serving member of the Armed Forces, but we also suffer from this "don't give a toss" attitude. If its one thing the Americans show us up on, it's patriotism.
There is no way I will discriminate, I feel that everyone has an equal footing on this earth. But from what The Decoy said about PC is right. It stinks. I have been made to sit through an exam on PC before now. And to be honest it made me think more to the side of the racist. This was not just my feeling, it was the feeling of many. To be told you cannot discriminate and then to be told you can be discriminated against - it is not right. We were told it is POSITIVE discrimination. Example : 2 equally qualified people go for a job, both give excellent interviews - nothing in it, they are neck and neck. One is abled bodied One is disabled . Automatically the disabled person will get job. POSITIVE . PC has gone crazy. I am not allowed to have any nationalistic tatoo, incase it offends anyone. Do gooders love this stuff, my god what did they do before this thing called PC came about??
For god sake some one get some balls and sort it out. Le Pen has SOME sound ideas, shame about the rest of the crap he is spouting. Like someone said before he has struk a cord with the french, some sane person needs to pick the good bits out and include that in their manifesto.
Totoro, their is a way of removing this image of the hooligan and the george cross. We as a country need to show it more, associate it with us, with you. All you need is a few photos with the new generation flying the flag then that picture of the hooligan will go.
But I feel it sad that people actually do not feel and patriotism to their own country. I myself would fight to the death for England/GB. We should take a page out of the Americans book - show pride in your country. We seem to forget that it was only 63 years ago that britain was unashamedly patriotic. And all the years before that, leading to a point today that people are to afraid to stand up for whats right in their own country. I say all this as a serving member of the Armed Forces, but we also suffer from this "don't give a toss" attitude. If its one thing the Americans show us up on, it's patriotism.
There is no way I will discriminate, I feel that everyone has an equal footing on this earth. But from what The Decoy said about PC is right. It stinks. I have been made to sit through an exam on PC before now. And to be honest it made me think more to the side of the racist. This was not just my feeling, it was the feeling of many. To be told you cannot discriminate and then to be told you can be discriminated against - it is not right. We were told it is POSITIVE discrimination. Example : 2 equally qualified people go for a job, both give excellent interviews - nothing in it, they are neck and neck. One is abled bodied One is disabled . Automatically the disabled person will get job. POSITIVE . PC has gone crazy. I am not allowed to have any nationalistic tatoo, incase it offends anyone. Do gooders love this stuff, my god what did they do before this thing called PC came about??
For god sake some one get some balls and sort it out. Le Pen has SOME sound ideas, shame about the rest of the crap he is spouting. Like someone said before he has struk a cord with the french, some sane person needs to pick the good bits out and include that in their manifesto.
Totoro, their is a way of removing this image of the hooligan and the george cross. We as a country need to show it more, associate it with us, with you. All you need is a few photos with the new generation flying the flag then that picture of the hooligan will go.
The thought of hooligan football "fans" still makes me shudder. Using the flag of St.George to show of their "patriotism", will we ever lose that image? Probably not:(
This is the thought of thing I was saying in my topic. How can it be racist to celebrate your country? I'm sure most countries in the world do but why is it different for us? Just because we are English it doesn't mean we are racist.
on the other hand to much Political Correctness is bad.
Besides it's only for one day after that we can go back to being politically correct Britain.
on the other hand to much Political Correctness is bad.
Besides it's only for one day after that we can go back to being politically correct Britain.
Goatboy wrote:
> The way I feel, the moment you start saying “Well you live here then
> you observe our customs and ways” starts to sound a little strange to
> me. .
Many immigrants weren't brought up with our customs and ways, and I believe that they don't have to follow them. If they don't want to celebrate Christmas then fine by me. I don't care if they don't speak English, if they want to learn they can, nothing stopping them.
What I have a problem with is that we have to adopt our customs and ways to avoid "causing offence" to them. Renaming Christmas for example, if they don't celebrate it then what does it matter?
One man in my town has a couple of flag poles outside his house, and when England was playing he had the English flag flying. Because of the world cup the council stole his flags, saying that their presence could upset the ethnic minorities.
Yet despite my 20 years I have never seen or heard of anyone complaining when the Italian portion of my town cover their roofs with the Italian flag, or drive around with flags flying from their car windows.
All of this so-called political correctness is getting ridiculous. Soon all the public holidays will be labelled "Public Holiday 1, Public Holiday 2" etc so as not to cause offence to anyone.
> The way I feel, the moment you start saying “Well you live here then
> you observe our customs and ways” starts to sound a little strange to
> me. .
Many immigrants weren't brought up with our customs and ways, and I believe that they don't have to follow them. If they don't want to celebrate Christmas then fine by me. I don't care if they don't speak English, if they want to learn they can, nothing stopping them.
What I have a problem with is that we have to adopt our customs and ways to avoid "causing offence" to them. Renaming Christmas for example, if they don't celebrate it then what does it matter?
One man in my town has a couple of flag poles outside his house, and when England was playing he had the English flag flying. Because of the world cup the council stole his flags, saying that their presence could upset the ethnic minorities.
Yet despite my 20 years I have never seen or heard of anyone complaining when the Italian portion of my town cover their roofs with the Italian flag, or drive around with flags flying from their car windows.
All of this so-called political correctness is getting ridiculous. Soon all the public holidays will be labelled "Public Holiday 1, Public Holiday 2" etc so as not to cause offence to anyone.
The thing that bugs me most about Richard Littlejohn and his whole idea of patriotism is how pathetically confused he is.
So he hates the French far-right (who villify and discriminate against 'immigrants' - for which read Arabs or Jews) but then starts banging on about a flood of illegal immigrants into this country. Quite apart from the rabble-rousing lie about a 'flood' of refugees, you would think that the very fact that oppressed people still want to come to Britain, would be a source of pride. However mistakenly, this country is still seen as offering freedom and opportunity. An important reason for this is that Britain - unlike most European states - doesn't have a neo-fascist party as a significant political force. We have to make a choice: have an open, responsible, non-discriminating country; or start capitulating to bigotry and shutting people and their problems out on the basis of skin colour or religion. The things said on immigration by Le Pen and the UK tabloid press are not a million miles apart in tone or intent. If there ever was some kind of fascist regime in the UK I'd be willing to bet (outrageous slander warning) that Littlejohn would one of its most enthusiastic cheerleaders.
So he hates the French far-right (who villify and discriminate against 'immigrants' - for which read Arabs or Jews) but then starts banging on about a flood of illegal immigrants into this country. Quite apart from the rabble-rousing lie about a 'flood' of refugees, you would think that the very fact that oppressed people still want to come to Britain, would be a source of pride. However mistakenly, this country is still seen as offering freedom and opportunity. An important reason for this is that Britain - unlike most European states - doesn't have a neo-fascist party as a significant political force. We have to make a choice: have an open, responsible, non-discriminating country; or start capitulating to bigotry and shutting people and their problems out on the basis of skin colour or religion. The things said on immigration by Le Pen and the UK tabloid press are not a million miles apart in tone or intent. If there ever was some kind of fascist regime in the UK I'd be willing to bet (outrageous slander warning) that Littlejohn would one of its most enthusiastic cheerleaders.
Small Frog wrote:
> I understand that it is human nature to create borders between
> ourselves and others...
What we call human nature is actually human habit.
> I understand that it is human nature to create borders between
> ourselves and others...
What we call human nature is actually human habit.
There are a couple of points on this issue that realluy irritate me, so Ill mention them here so tyhey can irritate you all too.
The first is things like renaming christmas in Birmingham, and changing BC to BCT (before common time) and AD to something else. It seems that in a few years we won't have any traditions or customs left because they were all banned for fear of offending people of races or religions who do not participate in them. I think this is, to be blunt, bl00dy stupid.
Another thing that gets me is the racial backlash that we have now. Renaming christmas seems to be all very well, but can you imagine the uproar if a councel tried to ban or renamejewish passover or muslim Ramadan? it would be unbelievable! Jobs would be lost and lives possibly ruined by endless racism claims etc. Similarly, Tiger Woods has founded a Charity to help black kids in America and the rest of the world if they are in trouble. I don't have a problem with it, but again the fuss would be unbelievable if you or I tried to start a charity solely for white children in the UK. Grrrr.
The first is things like renaming christmas in Birmingham, and changing BC to BCT (before common time) and AD to something else. It seems that in a few years we won't have any traditions or customs left because they were all banned for fear of offending people of races or religions who do not participate in them. I think this is, to be blunt, bl00dy stupid.
Another thing that gets me is the racial backlash that we have now. Renaming christmas seems to be all very well, but can you imagine the uproar if a councel tried to ban or renamejewish passover or muslim Ramadan? it would be unbelievable! Jobs would be lost and lives possibly ruined by endless racism claims etc. Similarly, Tiger Woods has founded a Charity to help black kids in America and the rest of the world if they are in trouble. I don't have a problem with it, but again the fuss would be unbelievable if you or I tried to start a charity solely for white children in the UK. Grrrr.
The feeling of nationalism is not an instict, it is conditioned into you as you develop, or not as the case may be (and what is it anyway - it is a very very broad term). The problem with racism is either prejudice, or people are confused about what to do - the issue of racism in their heads gets them nervous, so they actually do something odd - people around less able people do not see them as people, but as a disabled person, and so don't know how to treat them.
Anyway, if England (or the UK) is a floating piece of rock, then it is my home, I love it, and this planet will be the only one I will ever touch, and so a feeling of love/affection has developed - Yet people fight etc as it is our nature, and that will never change.
Anyway, if England (or the UK) is a floating piece of rock, then it is my home, I love it, and this planet will be the only one I will ever touch, and so a feeling of love/affection has developed - Yet people fight etc as it is our nature, and that will never change.
I just want to point out how much of a crap writer Littlejohn is. I couldn't even read half of that without drifting off.
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