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So the sun is out today, and it's a glorious day.
Except for one simple thing, and I'll try to explain.
There have been a number of posts here recently concerning foreign and domestic issues and immigrants/refugees etc, and I have had several discussions with folks here about what it means to be "British" and "Proud of England".
My stand is that I have no particular allegiance to this country, and as far as I'm concerned this is just another piece of rock floating on the sea that happens to have been labelled “England”.
We’ve seen a rise in the right-wing politics in France over the past couple of days, as well as a surge of right-wing votes/candidates in Germany, Italy and previously calm Switzerland.
There is the argument that “being proud of your country doesn’t mean your racist”. I agree with that idea, to an extent.
The way I feel, the moment you start saying “Well you live here then you observe our customs and ways” starts to sound a little strange to me. You have nothing to do with the fact that you are English, your parents do. Aside from the language you speak and the geographical location, you are exactly the same as Mehmet/Abdul/Nu-Gyen etc etc, and to insist they follow your traditions merely because they live in the same borders as you strikes me as odd.
But that’s just me.
To be “proud of your country” would suggest that you’ve done something for it. Fought in a war maybe, or just done something other than…well…nothing at all.
Being born here doesn’t make you any more worthy of being “proud to British” in my eyes.
And the fuss that gets caused because some council in Birmingham wants to rename Christmas etc etc is so utterly pointless, it doesn’t affect you at all.
So, to Wookie, YH and everyone else that has been banging on about being proud of being British etc (not specifically you two, but the only two names that spring to mind), I have 1 question:
Why has nobody mentioned the fact it’s St George’s Day today?
I would have thought that staunch UK Supporters might have made a little post about it somewhere.
Except for one simple thing, and I'll try to explain.
There have been a number of posts here recently concerning foreign and domestic issues and immigrants/refugees etc, and I have had several discussions with folks here about what it means to be "British" and "Proud of England".
My stand is that I have no particular allegiance to this country, and as far as I'm concerned this is just another piece of rock floating on the sea that happens to have been labelled “England”.
We’ve seen a rise in the right-wing politics in France over the past couple of days, as well as a surge of right-wing votes/candidates in Germany, Italy and previously calm Switzerland.
There is the argument that “being proud of your country doesn’t mean your racist”. I agree with that idea, to an extent.
The way I feel, the moment you start saying “Well you live here then you observe our customs and ways” starts to sound a little strange to me. You have nothing to do with the fact that you are English, your parents do. Aside from the language you speak and the geographical location, you are exactly the same as Mehmet/Abdul/Nu-Gyen etc etc, and to insist they follow your traditions merely because they live in the same borders as you strikes me as odd.
But that’s just me.
To be “proud of your country” would suggest that you’ve done something for it. Fought in a war maybe, or just done something other than…well…nothing at all.
Being born here doesn’t make you any more worthy of being “proud to British” in my eyes.
And the fuss that gets caused because some council in Birmingham wants to rename Christmas etc etc is so utterly pointless, it doesn’t affect you at all.
So, to Wookie, YH and everyone else that has been banging on about being proud of being British etc (not specifically you two, but the only two names that spring to mind), I have 1 question:
Why has nobody mentioned the fact it’s St George’s Day today?
I would have thought that staunch UK Supporters might have made a little post about it somewhere.
Page:
When in Rome!...Theres a very good reason for that!...If you don't like it. Then get the bloody hell out! Don,'t shove your foreign ignorant,16th century,backward attitudes,at me or my kind! Why the hell should I change,too suit you! It's MY country! Not some alien,foriegners,with alien cultures,relegions,belifes,language,dress/costums,attitudes! They want to preach/promote,their way of life! Fine,so long as they do it some where else! Not insult me,my culture,my heritage,my way of life,my identity! They come here! No one forces them to stay! they stay,then they intergrate! they don't want to! Then get the hell out! Don't tell me I have to change,FOR THEM! Cos that is not only bloody stupid! It's totally against the whole concept of life,nature & ultimatily,self-presservation & survival!
The English don't celerbrate,st Georges day,cos if you look at the nerds/mongrels/retards/religeous fanatics,that celerbrate St patric's,etc;your know why! In many ways,our/my attitudes & culture,is a hundred years & more,advanced!
The English don't celerbrate,st Georges day,cos if you look at the nerds/mongrels/retards/religeous fanatics,that celerbrate St patric's,etc;your know why! In many ways,our/my attitudes & culture,is a hundred years & more,advanced!
Goatboy! Get a brain! Theres more to Nationallity than where you live! It's your life! Your heritidge! your whole identity! Your nothin without it! It comes from the basic animal / life instincts! Too survive! Predudice is natural! It's all part of life! Looking after No 1. Looking after your own kind,your own family,your own kith & kin! With it comes territory/food/space/survival! You whouldn't feed a stranger,too let your family starve!you whouldn't give up your bed/home,just so's someone else,could have it!
$alvatore wrote:
> its St George`s day today? i had no idea
You maybe didn't know because you didn't really care. Which is fair enough.
But I bet you knew when St. Patrick's Day was, because it's rammed down your throat by pretty much everyone.
The reason you don't get that with St. George's Day is that English people are scared to mention anything relating to patriotism or nationalism because they'll be labelled as a racist.
> its St George`s day today? i had no idea
You maybe didn't know because you didn't really care. Which is fair enough.
But I bet you knew when St. Patrick's Day was, because it's rammed down your throat by pretty much everyone.
The reason you don't get that with St. George's Day is that English people are scared to mention anything relating to patriotism or nationalism because they'll be labelled as a racist.
unknown kernel wrote:
> or start capitulating to bigotry and shutting people and
> their problems out on the basis of skin colour or religion.
The way I see it, it's not about shutting people out on the basis of anything. It's about shutting people out, full stop. Not necessarily on a permanent basis, but for as long as it takes to drag the UK back to its feet.
This country is sinking fast, and currently we have very little to be proud of as a nation. Our education system, public transport, health service, police force - everything is collapsing around us. We can't sort out something as relatively simple as Wembley Stadium - what hope do we have with the important things?
The country is so bent on falling over backwards and accommodating everyone else that it has forgotten about its own. People can come here, claim asylum and get free houses and handouts of hundreds or thousands of pounds, while OAP's who have lived, worked and paid taxes all their life can't get a decent pension from the state, and are left to freeze (to death in some cases) in cold houses because they can't afford heating bills. Some of these people fought in wars to make and keep this country the haven that it is, and this is how we repay them.
That is absolutely SICK. And don't even BEGIN to tell me that that is right-wing propaganda - I have TWO aunts who are social workers and deal with asylum seekers and illegals on a regular basis, and have seen it first hand. One of them is recovering from a recent nervous breakdown from the pressure of the job, simply dealing with the sheer numbers of them, along with personal threats by them to her and her family.
And then there are the people being flown into the country for "free" (read "at taxpayers expense") operations, while our own people - who have paid those taxes - are shipped to France for surgery. Or, worse still, needing to raise tens of thousands of pounds to fly to America and have surgery there. Tell me - please - how in the hell is this right or acceptable?
I'm all for helping people where possible, but this is a small country, with limited resources and services. It's time to take a step back and start helping OURSELVES, because only when we are on our feet as a nation will we be able to help others properly.
At the moment, this country simply cannot handle any more. We're not even coping with what we've got, for Christ's sake. Granted, immigrants ARE NOT THE CAUSE of our problems, but accepting endless numbers with open arms and no regard for the consequences will not make the situation any better at all.
And I don't see why anyone in this country who simply says this should be branded as fascist or racist. Other countries have far stricter immigration policies, and no-one castrates them over it.
> If there ever was some kind of fascist regime in the UK I'd be willing
> to bet (outrageous slander warning) that Littlejohn would one of its
> most enthusiastic cheerleaders.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about (no personal offence intended). Someone dares say something against the whole situation and they're immediately fascist, racist, ill-informed, ill-educated, stupid, a moron, or some other imaginitive term that is equally insulting and derogatory. Regardless of your personal opinion of people like Littlejohn, they often have some very valid points. Their views are rubbished, no matter how many valid points they may contain, and all the lefties kick and scream (and occasionally riot, as we've seen...) until it's all brushed over and forgotten about.
And that all adds to the tension.
I don't claim to know the first thing about the politics behind the situation, and I certainly can't provide easy answers. But that doesn't make me ignorant or stupid. It simply means I have opinions based on my own personal experiences What it makes me is not a racist, but a concerned citizen. And I do believe that EVERYONE needs to be concerned, because unless we all come into a large amount of money in the near future, things don't look good for any of us, whether we're born and bred English, or stormed in through the Chunnel.
The one thing I CAN surmise from the vote in France, is that there IS a problem, which IS getting worse, and which no-one in authority has the balls to face head-on. More and more people are getting sick of the whole situation (hence the sudden upturn in votes for Le Pen), and if the 'respectable' governments don't start taking steps - fair steps - towards doing something about it, then people will slowly but surely turn to those who would take more extreme measures; and they will turn simply because they feel they have no other choice.
That said, the sudden increase in Le Pen's vote may indicate that the change won't be as slow as expected. Should the BNP ever get elected here, it will only be down to the successive failures of the main parties to tackle the problems - something which they are doing on a frighteningly regular basis.
It's all very well for politicians and journalists for high-brow newspapers to brush things under the carpet, tell us that there is no problem and that we should tow the line - because they don't live and work in the areas where the problems exist.
I've spent all of my 30 years living on council estates where social problems between races certainly do exist. I lived in Hackney, London from birth until 1986 and was subject to racial bullying at school. I watched as minority communities grew, and as they did, so did the tension. The tension led to increased crime. It went from being able to play on the streets safely as a kid, to being nervous about going out of the flat in broad daylight as a teenager.
The flats where I used to live in Hackney Wick - considered luxury flats when they were built - now look like a prison, because they all have wrought iron bars over the doors and windows; only these are to keep people out, rather than in. My best friend's mum still lives there, and there are apparently shootings on an almost daily basis.
We were burgled three times in the fifteen years we lived there, on one occasion losing all the Christmas presents that had been bought. A fourth occasion was foiled by my dad returning home early to find a group of men trying to remove the window of the front door to gain access; by this time we had welded shut window frames on the front balcony and re-inforced the door itself with deadbolts and a steel plate. On the same estate, my nan was burlged twice, and mugged on several occasions, making her a nervous wreck.
I obviously can't go into details on this forum about these issues, because the post would be deleted. But suffice to say my nan - may she rest in peace - hated "foreigners" as a direct result of these incidents, and my dad also has his moments.
Now we've lived in Northampton for 16 years, and this estate is slowly but surely heading the same way. So while I do my absolute best to get along with everyone equally, I do get pig sick of being told (a) that there are no problems, and (b) we must change everything to suit everyone else, and (c) all the other crap that goes with it.
I long for the day when we can all "just get along" as one big happy family, but it won't happen until policies are changed, because current policies breed resentment.
So that's my rant over.
No doubt there are those among you who will now proceed to tell me how wrong/ignorant/uneducated/racist/fascist/"insert catchy new insult here" I am, and how I belong in a zoo with all the other knuckle-dragging, flag-waving, right-wing, neo-Nazi morons.
Then again, maybe I am just that, and I just don't know it yet? After all, I'm proud of my country and I like to wave the flag. In some people's books, that's me banged to rights as a bona fide racist.
Whatever you think is fine by me. You don't know me, I don't know you, and so I don't care too much what your opinion of me is; I'll live - unfortunate as that may seem to some of you. Those who know me well enough - even the 'foreigners' - know how I think, and they also know that I would, and indeed often do, help anyone with anything at any time, regardless of where they're from. But you only have my word for that.
> or start capitulating to bigotry and shutting people and
> their problems out on the basis of skin colour or religion.
The way I see it, it's not about shutting people out on the basis of anything. It's about shutting people out, full stop. Not necessarily on a permanent basis, but for as long as it takes to drag the UK back to its feet.
This country is sinking fast, and currently we have very little to be proud of as a nation. Our education system, public transport, health service, police force - everything is collapsing around us. We can't sort out something as relatively simple as Wembley Stadium - what hope do we have with the important things?
The country is so bent on falling over backwards and accommodating everyone else that it has forgotten about its own. People can come here, claim asylum and get free houses and handouts of hundreds or thousands of pounds, while OAP's who have lived, worked and paid taxes all their life can't get a decent pension from the state, and are left to freeze (to death in some cases) in cold houses because they can't afford heating bills. Some of these people fought in wars to make and keep this country the haven that it is, and this is how we repay them.
That is absolutely SICK. And don't even BEGIN to tell me that that is right-wing propaganda - I have TWO aunts who are social workers and deal with asylum seekers and illegals on a regular basis, and have seen it first hand. One of them is recovering from a recent nervous breakdown from the pressure of the job, simply dealing with the sheer numbers of them, along with personal threats by them to her and her family.
And then there are the people being flown into the country for "free" (read "at taxpayers expense") operations, while our own people - who have paid those taxes - are shipped to France for surgery. Or, worse still, needing to raise tens of thousands of pounds to fly to America and have surgery there. Tell me - please - how in the hell is this right or acceptable?
I'm all for helping people where possible, but this is a small country, with limited resources and services. It's time to take a step back and start helping OURSELVES, because only when we are on our feet as a nation will we be able to help others properly.
At the moment, this country simply cannot handle any more. We're not even coping with what we've got, for Christ's sake. Granted, immigrants ARE NOT THE CAUSE of our problems, but accepting endless numbers with open arms and no regard for the consequences will not make the situation any better at all.
And I don't see why anyone in this country who simply says this should be branded as fascist or racist. Other countries have far stricter immigration policies, and no-one castrates them over it.
> If there ever was some kind of fascist regime in the UK I'd be willing
> to bet (outrageous slander warning) that Littlejohn would one of its
> most enthusiastic cheerleaders.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about (no personal offence intended). Someone dares say something against the whole situation and they're immediately fascist, racist, ill-informed, ill-educated, stupid, a moron, or some other imaginitive term that is equally insulting and derogatory. Regardless of your personal opinion of people like Littlejohn, they often have some very valid points. Their views are rubbished, no matter how many valid points they may contain, and all the lefties kick and scream (and occasionally riot, as we've seen...) until it's all brushed over and forgotten about.
And that all adds to the tension.
I don't claim to know the first thing about the politics behind the situation, and I certainly can't provide easy answers. But that doesn't make me ignorant or stupid. It simply means I have opinions based on my own personal experiences What it makes me is not a racist, but a concerned citizen. And I do believe that EVERYONE needs to be concerned, because unless we all come into a large amount of money in the near future, things don't look good for any of us, whether we're born and bred English, or stormed in through the Chunnel.
The one thing I CAN surmise from the vote in France, is that there IS a problem, which IS getting worse, and which no-one in authority has the balls to face head-on. More and more people are getting sick of the whole situation (hence the sudden upturn in votes for Le Pen), and if the 'respectable' governments don't start taking steps - fair steps - towards doing something about it, then people will slowly but surely turn to those who would take more extreme measures; and they will turn simply because they feel they have no other choice.
That said, the sudden increase in Le Pen's vote may indicate that the change won't be as slow as expected. Should the BNP ever get elected here, it will only be down to the successive failures of the main parties to tackle the problems - something which they are doing on a frighteningly regular basis.
It's all very well for politicians and journalists for high-brow newspapers to brush things under the carpet, tell us that there is no problem and that we should tow the line - because they don't live and work in the areas where the problems exist.
I've spent all of my 30 years living on council estates where social problems between races certainly do exist. I lived in Hackney, London from birth until 1986 and was subject to racial bullying at school. I watched as minority communities grew, and as they did, so did the tension. The tension led to increased crime. It went from being able to play on the streets safely as a kid, to being nervous about going out of the flat in broad daylight as a teenager.
The flats where I used to live in Hackney Wick - considered luxury flats when they were built - now look like a prison, because they all have wrought iron bars over the doors and windows; only these are to keep people out, rather than in. My best friend's mum still lives there, and there are apparently shootings on an almost daily basis.
We were burgled three times in the fifteen years we lived there, on one occasion losing all the Christmas presents that had been bought. A fourth occasion was foiled by my dad returning home early to find a group of men trying to remove the window of the front door to gain access; by this time we had welded shut window frames on the front balcony and re-inforced the door itself with deadbolts and a steel plate. On the same estate, my nan was burlged twice, and mugged on several occasions, making her a nervous wreck.
I obviously can't go into details on this forum about these issues, because the post would be deleted. But suffice to say my nan - may she rest in peace - hated "foreigners" as a direct result of these incidents, and my dad also has his moments.
Now we've lived in Northampton for 16 years, and this estate is slowly but surely heading the same way. So while I do my absolute best to get along with everyone equally, I do get pig sick of being told (a) that there are no problems, and (b) we must change everything to suit everyone else, and (c) all the other crap that goes with it.
I long for the day when we can all "just get along" as one big happy family, but it won't happen until policies are changed, because current policies breed resentment.
So that's my rant over.
No doubt there are those among you who will now proceed to tell me how wrong/ignorant/uneducated/racist/fascist/"insert catchy new insult here" I am, and how I belong in a zoo with all the other knuckle-dragging, flag-waving, right-wing, neo-Nazi morons.
Then again, maybe I am just that, and I just don't know it yet? After all, I'm proud of my country and I like to wave the flag. In some people's books, that's me banged to rights as a bona fide racist.
Whatever you think is fine by me. You don't know me, I don't know you, and so I don't care too much what your opinion of me is; I'll live - unfortunate as that may seem to some of you. Those who know me well enough - even the 'foreigners' - know how I think, and they also know that I would, and indeed often do, help anyone with anything at any time, regardless of where they're from. But you only have my word for that.
I should make it clear, I have nothing against patriotism at all.
Do what you want to, it matters not a jot to me.
You want to sign up and join the army? Good for you, I wish you all the best.
But you need to differentiate between patriotism and nationalism.
Patriotism is saying "I love my country and wish to share it with everyone"
Nationalism is saying "You either love my country like I do or you can get out"
A fine line.
And as for The Sun/Richard Littlejohn being a voice for anything?
That paper, and especially that man, serve as nothing more than agitators for the masses. The sorts of people that take their news from The Sun have basic, if any, grips on world politics and the wider issues.
Sorry if you take offence at that, but it's true. A paper that thinks a haircut of a footballer is front page news has no business trying to explain events to the cud-chewers that read that paper.
I'd prefer to see The Daily Sport as Europe's No.1 paper, because that is just boobs and made-up stories.
It's when a rag like The Sun starts to comment on the world that it becomes dangerous, because a vast majority of the readers look no further than that paper for their ideas of the world.
I remember when Labour won the election, the headline was
"It wos us wot won it"
Retarded paper.
Or the coverage of the Falklands war, when the Belgrano was sunk outside of UK territorial waters, headed away from the island
"Argy Bargy".
That's the level of that newspaper and Richard Littlejohn is a fool.
He panders to whatever emotion is running high, bashes a few words out mirroring public sentiment and voila! "Voice of The People".
I do not want my voice represented by a paper that a topless woman on Page 3or a man that used to host a gameshow on Channel 4.
He is a danger to those people that have the ability to stop and think about a situation befor committing themselves to it.
So Littlejohn spoke about "rampant PC", so what?
---
Christ I'm in a bad mood and I can't sleep.
Damn The Sun, damn Richard Littlejohn and damn anyone that thumped their chest about "being proud to be English", but forgot today was St George's Day or lacked the courage of their beliefs to post a simple "Today is St George's Day"
Choose an issue, by all means, but get behind it 100% otherwise it's a joke.
Do what you want to, it matters not a jot to me.
You want to sign up and join the army? Good for you, I wish you all the best.
But you need to differentiate between patriotism and nationalism.
Patriotism is saying "I love my country and wish to share it with everyone"
Nationalism is saying "You either love my country like I do or you can get out"
A fine line.
And as for The Sun/Richard Littlejohn being a voice for anything?
That paper, and especially that man, serve as nothing more than agitators for the masses. The sorts of people that take their news from The Sun have basic, if any, grips on world politics and the wider issues.
Sorry if you take offence at that, but it's true. A paper that thinks a haircut of a footballer is front page news has no business trying to explain events to the cud-chewers that read that paper.
I'd prefer to see The Daily Sport as Europe's No.1 paper, because that is just boobs and made-up stories.
It's when a rag like The Sun starts to comment on the world that it becomes dangerous, because a vast majority of the readers look no further than that paper for their ideas of the world.
I remember when Labour won the election, the headline was
"It wos us wot won it"
Retarded paper.
Or the coverage of the Falklands war, when the Belgrano was sunk outside of UK territorial waters, headed away from the island
"Argy Bargy".
That's the level of that newspaper and Richard Littlejohn is a fool.
He panders to whatever emotion is running high, bashes a few words out mirroring public sentiment and voila! "Voice of The People".
I do not want my voice represented by a paper that a topless woman on Page 3or a man that used to host a gameshow on Channel 4.
He is a danger to those people that have the ability to stop and think about a situation befor committing themselves to it.
So Littlejohn spoke about "rampant PC", so what?
---
Christ I'm in a bad mood and I can't sleep.
Damn The Sun, damn Richard Littlejohn and damn anyone that thumped their chest about "being proud to be English", but forgot today was St George's Day or lacked the courage of their beliefs to post a simple "Today is St George's Day"
Choose an issue, by all means, but get behind it 100% otherwise it's a joke.
And besides, my point of this thread wasn't to raise that age old bore of "Why can't I be proud of being white without being racist?"
This thread was to say that every single person here that is that proud of being British made no effort whatsoever to mention St George's Day here until I did.
Which, as I've said before, indicates just how committed you are to this whole "UK number 1!" premise.
This thread was to say that every single person here that is that proud of being British made no effort whatsoever to mention St George's Day here until I did.
Which, as I've said before, indicates just how committed you are to this whole "UK number 1!" premise.
Beware the Toads wrote:
Similarly, Tiger Woods
> has founded a Charity to help black kids in America and the rest of
> the world if they are in trouble. I don't have a problem with it, but
> again the fuss would be unbelievable if you or I tried to start a
> charity solely for white children in the UK. Grrrr.
---
That may have something to do with the fact that, in America, blacks are 9 times more likely to end up in prison or not graduating college than whites.
Due to things like blacks not being given the right to vote until when?
Thaaaat's right, the 1960's.
Lynchings, murder, segregation etc up to just over 30 years ago.
That is one of the weakest arguments you can use, "Well there's no Miss White America is there? Why not?"
Because whites have always, and will always stand a better chance over there and here of making a success of things.
White haven't been used as slaves here or anywhere else to my knowledge.
White culture wasn't supressed and, sometimes, beaten out of existence was it?
Similarly, Tiger Woods
> has founded a Charity to help black kids in America and the rest of
> the world if they are in trouble. I don't have a problem with it, but
> again the fuss would be unbelievable if you or I tried to start a
> charity solely for white children in the UK. Grrrr.
---
That may have something to do with the fact that, in America, blacks are 9 times more likely to end up in prison or not graduating college than whites.
Due to things like blacks not being given the right to vote until when?
Thaaaat's right, the 1960's.
Lynchings, murder, segregation etc up to just over 30 years ago.
That is one of the weakest arguments you can use, "Well there's no Miss White America is there? Why not?"
Because whites have always, and will always stand a better chance over there and here of making a success of things.
White haven't been used as slaves here or anywhere else to my knowledge.
White culture wasn't supressed and, sometimes, beaten out of existence was it?
$alvatore wrote:
> its St George`s day today? i had no idea
Exactly my point.
> its St George`s day today? i had no idea
Exactly my point.
Like I said this is what my topic (St Georges day) was about.
PC can get silly at some point as I said will we not have the jubilee as it offends Republicans and other countries without a monarch?
But is there a limit to when we can accept asylum seekers? My grandad (god rest his soul) said he didn't like them building mosques. He said what would happen if we built a christian church in their contries? it would get pulled down.
PC can get silly at some point as I said will we not have the jubilee as it offends Republicans and other countries without a monarch?
But is there a limit to when we can accept asylum seekers? My grandad (god rest his soul) said he didn't like them building mosques. He said what would happen if we built a christian church in their contries? it would get pulled down.
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