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For the first time in years, there are more than two serious consoles hitting the market. Even more amazingly, two of these consoles are launching head-to-head, and the other is extremely well established... both with brand name and games.
So, not only has Nintendo got to compete with Sony (again!), but this time Microsoft have joined the scene. Add to that, the PS2 has had two Christmases worth of sales, and a huge repetoire of games, and the Xbox has a huge marketting budget (and a strong launch to go).
Clearly, Nintendo cannot compete with Microsoft on the TV screens- they simply don't ahve the money for that.
Oh no... Ninty have a far greater weapon at their disposly- games. And lots of them. With characters and franchises ranging from Mario and Zelda to Metroid and Kirby you wouldn't be suprised if Nintendo launched the Gamecube with the best line up of AAA titles seen...
In fact, I thought Nintendo had gone one better when they announced, a while back, that they had given the rights to many of their games away. Metroid, Smash Brothers and Starfox, amongst others, were to have sequals made by developers outside Nintendo. This would then enable Nintendo to concentrate on making some of the most spectacular games ever. Maybe a new Zelda for launch? Maybe something totally new!
But alas, things seem to be crumbling. First we hear news of Ninty's in house games. It turns out that Mario and Zelda will be absent from launch, to be replaced by a couple of weaker games. Ok, so the in house games are good fun, no doubt, BUT will these attract gamers to buy the Gamcube. Methinks not.
Nor will the news of a new Zelda wet gamers appetites- 90% of gamers are the casual sort who will buy a console on brandname alone, and don't read multiformat mags. How are Nintendo going to get these gamers to part with their PS2s, and buy a console that looks like a kids toy? (Sorry, but the console doesn't look "serious".)
OH! And things get worse!...
Those franchised games Ninty have given out aren't all they were promised to be.
At Spaceworld, there was a big absence of Metroid clips- only 8 seconds of the game were shown. Asked why this was, Mr. Miyamoto had to admit that he'd only got the code for the game just before the show, and he wasn't impressed by what he saw. The game had bad pop-up, no sound, was not interactive, and certainly wasn't worth the months of work that had been spent on it. (I believe the game was 8 months into developent at this time!). In fact, the whole future of the game looked on a knife edge.
The other games Ninty had handed out were all good, but many were so far from ready that you wonder why Nintendo didn't just make one of these games themselves to get it out at launch.
Before Nintendo fans throw a riot, let me just saya few things:
1) I am only talking about launch titles
2) I'm a huge Miyamoto fan and will be buying a GC myself
3) This topic is MEANT to cause discussion.
Oh, and remember, all the titles that miss release will come out eventually. So those Zeldas and Marios will certainly mean the console is a great piece of kit. That;s not what I'm arguing about.
I just want to know where all of Ninty's time has gone? They've given away many of their big games, has ages to make a killer titles, and instead they come out with Pikmin... fun, but not AAA by any means.
Sonic
So, not only has Nintendo got to compete with Sony (again!), but this time Microsoft have joined the scene. Add to that, the PS2 has had two Christmases worth of sales, and a huge repetoire of games, and the Xbox has a huge marketting budget (and a strong launch to go).
Clearly, Nintendo cannot compete with Microsoft on the TV screens- they simply don't ahve the money for that.
Oh no... Ninty have a far greater weapon at their disposly- games. And lots of them. With characters and franchises ranging from Mario and Zelda to Metroid and Kirby you wouldn't be suprised if Nintendo launched the Gamecube with the best line up of AAA titles seen...
In fact, I thought Nintendo had gone one better when they announced, a while back, that they had given the rights to many of their games away. Metroid, Smash Brothers and Starfox, amongst others, were to have sequals made by developers outside Nintendo. This would then enable Nintendo to concentrate on making some of the most spectacular games ever. Maybe a new Zelda for launch? Maybe something totally new!
But alas, things seem to be crumbling. First we hear news of Ninty's in house games. It turns out that Mario and Zelda will be absent from launch, to be replaced by a couple of weaker games. Ok, so the in house games are good fun, no doubt, BUT will these attract gamers to buy the Gamcube. Methinks not.
Nor will the news of a new Zelda wet gamers appetites- 90% of gamers are the casual sort who will buy a console on brandname alone, and don't read multiformat mags. How are Nintendo going to get these gamers to part with their PS2s, and buy a console that looks like a kids toy? (Sorry, but the console doesn't look "serious".)
OH! And things get worse!...
Those franchised games Ninty have given out aren't all they were promised to be.
At Spaceworld, there was a big absence of Metroid clips- only 8 seconds of the game were shown. Asked why this was, Mr. Miyamoto had to admit that he'd only got the code for the game just before the show, and he wasn't impressed by what he saw. The game had bad pop-up, no sound, was not interactive, and certainly wasn't worth the months of work that had been spent on it. (I believe the game was 8 months into developent at this time!). In fact, the whole future of the game looked on a knife edge.
The other games Ninty had handed out were all good, but many were so far from ready that you wonder why Nintendo didn't just make one of these games themselves to get it out at launch.
Before Nintendo fans throw a riot, let me just saya few things:
1) I am only talking about launch titles
2) I'm a huge Miyamoto fan and will be buying a GC myself
3) This topic is MEANT to cause discussion.
Oh, and remember, all the titles that miss release will come out eventually. So those Zeldas and Marios will certainly mean the console is a great piece of kit. That;s not what I'm arguing about.
I just want to know where all of Ninty's time has gone? They've given away many of their big games, has ages to make a killer titles, and instead they come out with Pikmin... fun, but not AAA by any means.
Sonic
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Dringo wrote:
"PS2 is a sad Teenage brand name appealing to the depressed angered teenager so isn't a cooler brand, the PS2 has more games for now will it at the end it a different matter and wider range of genre's i see what you mean but i can argue differently."
Ummmm... two points:
1) You can argue differently... so why don't you argue about why the PS2 brand as gone downmarket as you see it... I can hardly argue with this view if you don't justify it now can I?
2) If this PS2 is less of a cool brand than I have said, please explain its huge sales, and continued over-selling of the GC.
"The Gamecube will have just as many, fun beat 'em ups- Smash Brothers, these will be absent on the PS2, Nintendo have survival horror rapped up - Resident evil and the new Psychological thriller -Eternal Darkness. Normal beat 'em ups - Tekken, Soul Calibur, Driving sims i dunno but Futuristic - F Zero, biking - Excitebike, water - Wave RAce, sun- Mario KArt i spilt each genre into smaller genre's and personally i feel Nintendo have a wider selection of genres."
I certainly think Ninty have a selection of games in genres the PS2 does not cover... but this says nothing about casual gamers wanting this console over the PS2.
For example, the GC has, as you rightly point out, some great futuristic racers... which I personally love. Howeverm it doesn't have a AAA simulation racer... and this genre is FAR more important to selling consoles to the casual gamer. Likewise with Smash bros etc...
One other point you make is thr GC's more "adult" games like the Res Evil series. I think this will be very important for the console's sales when these games are released, but a couple of series os not enough... the whole console's image has to be "adultish" to attract the adult gamer... to begin with, the look of the box- it looks like a kid's toy! This isn't important to real gamers like you or I, but the casual gamer DOES find the look of the box important.
Sonic
"PS2 is a sad Teenage brand name appealing to the depressed angered teenager so isn't a cooler brand, the PS2 has more games for now will it at the end it a different matter and wider range of genre's i see what you mean but i can argue differently."
Ummmm... two points:
1) You can argue differently... so why don't you argue about why the PS2 brand as gone downmarket as you see it... I can hardly argue with this view if you don't justify it now can I?
2) If this PS2 is less of a cool brand than I have said, please explain its huge sales, and continued over-selling of the GC.
"The Gamecube will have just as many, fun beat 'em ups- Smash Brothers, these will be absent on the PS2, Nintendo have survival horror rapped up - Resident evil and the new Psychological thriller -Eternal Darkness. Normal beat 'em ups - Tekken, Soul Calibur, Driving sims i dunno but Futuristic - F Zero, biking - Excitebike, water - Wave RAce, sun- Mario KArt i spilt each genre into smaller genre's and personally i feel Nintendo have a wider selection of genres."
I certainly think Ninty have a selection of games in genres the PS2 does not cover... but this says nothing about casual gamers wanting this console over the PS2.
For example, the GC has, as you rightly point out, some great futuristic racers... which I personally love. Howeverm it doesn't have a AAA simulation racer... and this genre is FAR more important to selling consoles to the casual gamer. Likewise with Smash bros etc...
One other point you make is thr GC's more "adult" games like the Res Evil series. I think this will be very important for the console's sales when these games are released, but a couple of series os not enough... the whole console's image has to be "adultish" to attract the adult gamer... to begin with, the look of the box- it looks like a kid's toy! This isn't important to real gamers like you or I, but the casual gamer DOES find the look of the box important.
Sonic
Sonic wrote:
Let's face it, the PS2 has more games, in a wider range of genres and a far cooler brand.
Thats where, no i won't face it i think the PS2 is a sad Teenage brand name appealing to the depressed angered teenager so isn't a cooler brand, the PS2 has more games for now will it at the end it a different matter and wider range of genre's i see what you mean but i can argue differently.
The Gamecube will have just as many, fun beat 'em ups- Smash Brothers, these will be absent on the PS2, Nintendo have survival horror rapped up - Resident evil and the new Psychological thriller -Eternal Darkness. Normal beat 'em ups - Tekken, Soul Calibur, Driving sims i dunno but Futuristic - F Zero, biking - Excitebike, water - Wave RAce, Fun- Mario KArt i spilt each genre into smaller genre's and personally i feel Nintendo have a wider selection of genres.
Let's face it, the PS2 has more games, in a wider range of genres and a far cooler brand.
Thats where, no i won't face it i think the PS2 is a sad Teenage brand name appealing to the depressed angered teenager so isn't a cooler brand, the PS2 has more games for now will it at the end it a different matter and wider range of genre's i see what you mean but i can argue differently.
The Gamecube will have just as many, fun beat 'em ups- Smash Brothers, these will be absent on the PS2, Nintendo have survival horror rapped up - Resident evil and the new Psychological thriller -Eternal Darkness. Normal beat 'em ups - Tekken, Soul Calibur, Driving sims i dunno but Futuristic - F Zero, biking - Excitebike, water - Wave RAce, Fun- Mario KArt i spilt each genre into smaller genre's and personally i feel Nintendo have a wider selection of genres.
Dringo wrote:
"If this was the case i would go upstairs and play on my brothers PS2 with his large catalogue of games, i don't the reason why is because it is the biggest pile of bull crap i have ever tried to play. Devil May Cry and GTA3 are the only two titles that had me go back to it and my brother has Tekken, GT3, FIFA, SSX, Soul Reaver, Twisted Metal black, Crazy Taxi etc... and i don't find them special at all (but FIFA is FIFA) after playing my N64 i expected more from the PS2 i knew it would be Nintendo's best mates Capcom that provides some of the only reasons to get the system."
Remind me where I said that YOU should like PS2 games... I never said you do, or should...
BUT casual gamers (ie 90% of the gamers out there) actually do like the games on the PS2... whether it's for the right reason or not.
They like GT3 because it's GT2+1... it has real cars, and is very realistic.
They will not like games like Pikmin anywhere near as much... the tried and tested beat em ups, sim racers and footie games are what they're after.
Sonic
"If this was the case i would go upstairs and play on my brothers PS2 with his large catalogue of games, i don't the reason why is because it is the biggest pile of bull crap i have ever tried to play. Devil May Cry and GTA3 are the only two titles that had me go back to it and my brother has Tekken, GT3, FIFA, SSX, Soul Reaver, Twisted Metal black, Crazy Taxi etc... and i don't find them special at all (but FIFA is FIFA) after playing my N64 i expected more from the PS2 i knew it would be Nintendo's best mates Capcom that provides some of the only reasons to get the system."
Remind me where I said that YOU should like PS2 games... I never said you do, or should...
BUT casual gamers (ie 90% of the gamers out there) actually do like the games on the PS2... whether it's for the right reason or not.
They like GT3 because it's GT2+1... it has real cars, and is very realistic.
They will not like games like Pikmin anywhere near as much... the tried and tested beat em ups, sim racers and footie games are what they're after.
Sonic
Thats not what I meant i meant these big AAA PS2 titles which all my PS2 owning friends are going mad over came out as GC launch titles titles that took a year to appear on the PS2. I would use smash Brothers, Pikmin and Star Wars if i wanted to argue properly and as for Tony hawks not needing to go wow over if this is the case why did Gamespot give it game of the year?
Sonic Rav:
Let's face it, the PS2 has more games, in a wider range of genres and a far cooler brand. It has more adult games (in comparison with the GC's launch games), and certainly has enough AAA titles to completely wipe the floor of the GC's launch.
If this was the case i would go upstairs and play on my brothers PS2 with his large catalogue of games, i don't the reason why is because it is the biggest pile of bull crap i have ever tried to play. Devil May Cry and GTA3 are the only two titles that had me go back to it and my brother has Tekken, GT3, FIFA, SSX, Soul Reaver, Twisted Metal black, Crazy Taxi etc... and i don't find them special at all (but FIFA is FIFA) after playing my N64 i expected more from the PS2 i knew it would be Nintendo's best mates Capcom that provides some of the only reasons to get the system.
Sonic Rav:
Let's face it, the PS2 has more games, in a wider range of genres and a far cooler brand. It has more adult games (in comparison with the GC's launch games), and certainly has enough AAA titles to completely wipe the floor of the GC's launch.
If this was the case i would go upstairs and play on my brothers PS2 with his large catalogue of games, i don't the reason why is because it is the biggest pile of bull crap i have ever tried to play. Devil May Cry and GTA3 are the only two titles that had me go back to it and my brother has Tekken, GT3, FIFA, SSX, Soul Reaver, Twisted Metal black, Crazy Taxi etc... and i don't find them special at all (but FIFA is FIFA) after playing my N64 i expected more from the PS2 i knew it would be Nintendo's best mates Capcom that provides some of the only reasons to get the system.
Dringo wrote:
> But lets just look at two Gamecube launch titles - SSX Tricky and Tony Hawks 3.
> Now these two titles took over a year to surface on the PS2 and are examples of
> PS2 excellence the fact that the Nintendo Gamecube recieves these titles right
> at the beginning is a good sign in my eyes.
Are these the best launch titles you can name!?!? They're good and all, but nothing to go "WOW- I need a GC" over!
Which is the whole point of this topic! Ninty have really let themselves down at launch... they haven't come out with a killer app, have next to nothing in the marketting budget, and really have nothing over the PS2 in terms of "why should I get a GC instead of a PS2...
Let's face it, the PS2 has more games, in a wider range of genres and a far cooler brand. It has more adult games (in comparison with the GC's launch games), and certainly has enough AAA titles to completely wipe the floor of the GC's launch.
The fact is that CASUAL gamers will go on this alone... and not read about the next Zelda/Mario or the Res Evil series.
Sonic
> But lets just look at two Gamecube launch titles - SSX Tricky and Tony Hawks 3.
> Now these two titles took over a year to surface on the PS2 and are examples of
> PS2 excellence the fact that the Nintendo Gamecube recieves these titles right
> at the beginning is a good sign in my eyes.
Are these the best launch titles you can name!?!? They're good and all, but nothing to go "WOW- I need a GC" over!
Which is the whole point of this topic! Ninty have really let themselves down at launch... they haven't come out with a killer app, have next to nothing in the marketting budget, and really have nothing over the PS2 in terms of "why should I get a GC instead of a PS2...
Let's face it, the PS2 has more games, in a wider range of genres and a far cooler brand. It has more adult games (in comparison with the GC's launch games), and certainly has enough AAA titles to completely wipe the floor of the GC's launch.
The fact is that CASUAL gamers will go on this alone... and not read about the next Zelda/Mario or the Res Evil series.
Sonic
But lets just look at two Gamecube launch titles - SSX Tricky and Tony Hawks 3. Now these two titles took over a year to surface on the PS2 and are examples of PS2 excellence the fact that the Nintendo Gamecube recieves these titles right at the beginning is a good sign in my eyes.
The launch is a few months not 3-5 years...
Dringo... please read the original post...
The point is that Ninty haven't done themselves justice at launch... read the post!
Sonic
The point is that Ninty haven't done themselves justice at launch... read the post!
Sonic
Finally, Ninty is a company.. with investors. Now, not only has the
> Japanese ecconomy collapsed, but many games companies have had to slash jobs
> (SNK went out of business, Sega had to get rid of all their arcade and hardware
> divisions and make all their departments independent). So, if the console
> doesn't do well and impress investors, then it'll crash Ninty... after all,
> Ninty has promised investors a 25% share of the console market, and if they fail
> to deliver, the results could be disasterous.
But they won't, Nintendo won't fail due to their software.
> Japanese ecconomy collapsed, but many games companies have had to slash jobs
> (SNK went out of business, Sega had to get rid of all their arcade and hardware
> divisions and make all their departments independent). So, if the console
> doesn't do well and impress investors, then it'll crash Ninty... after all,
> Ninty has promised investors a 25% share of the console market, and if they fail
> to deliver, the results could be disasterous.
But they won't, Nintendo won't fail due to their software.
The N64 did sell far more units than the SNES. But my point was that the market has grown to such a size that far, far more units need to be sold now to make a profit than did during the 16bit era.
The reason for this is quite simple:
To begin with, games on the SNES cost next to nothing to make- the Darling Brothers (founders of Codemasters) made SNES games in their garage! But to make a killer App now, you need far, far more resources, and hence more units sold.
Next, there is the question of third parties. If you do not sell enough consoles to get a sizable proportion of the market, third party manufacturers leave you. And hence you end up with an N64-like situation... a range of games far too small for a mass market gamer to go for. (NB, the N64 had few third parties because of totally different reasons to that which I have given... however, the console illustrates what happens if you have a lack of third parties).
Finally, Ninty is a company.. with investors. Now, not only has the Japanese ecconomy collapsed, but many games companies have had to slash jobs (SNK went out of business, Sega had to get rid of all their arcade and hardware divisions and make all their departments independent). So, if the console doesn't do well and impress investors, then it'll crash Ninty... after all, Ninty has promised investors a 25% share of the console market, and if they fail to deliver, the results could be disasterous.
Sonic
The reason for this is quite simple:
To begin with, games on the SNES cost next to nothing to make- the Darling Brothers (founders of Codemasters) made SNES games in their garage! But to make a killer App now, you need far, far more resources, and hence more units sold.
Next, there is the question of third parties. If you do not sell enough consoles to get a sizable proportion of the market, third party manufacturers leave you. And hence you end up with an N64-like situation... a range of games far too small for a mass market gamer to go for. (NB, the N64 had few third parties because of totally different reasons to that which I have given... however, the console illustrates what happens if you have a lack of third parties).
Finally, Ninty is a company.. with investors. Now, not only has the Japanese ecconomy collapsed, but many games companies have had to slash jobs (SNK went out of business, Sega had to get rid of all their arcade and hardware divisions and make all their departments independent). So, if the console doesn't do well and impress investors, then it'll crash Ninty... after all, Ninty has promised investors a 25% share of the console market, and if they fail to deliver, the results could be disasterous.
Sonic
Page: