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Heh, two controversial threads about Muslim values by me in a couple of weeks ... think it's just a subject I find interesting, all religion and its effect on our way of life. Being non-religious I'm concerned that religious values are dictating our laws in a country that is supposed to enjoy 'freedom of speech'. I'm not picking at the Islamic faith ... but it's all over the media right now and some things I find hard to ignore ...
I feel the same about any group of people that tries to force others to live by it's values ... whoever that might be.
So here's the next controversial topic, shown tonight on C4 ...
The Dispatches Debate:
Muslims and Free Speech
Channel 4 Monday 23 October 2006, 8pm
Jon Snow chairs a special Dispatches debate on whether Muslims are threatening freedom of speech in the UK. Recent events such as the protests over remarks made by the Pope about the nature of Islam; to demonstrations over the publication of Danish cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed; to the censorship of works of art depicting holy scriptures have all raised an urgent question: whether the objections made by Muslims are legitimate reasons to prevent publication or display? Jon Snow will question a series of guests who have been directly involved in these controversies.
Anyone any views on this they wish to share?
I feel the same about any group of people that tries to force others to live by it's values ... whoever that might be.
So here's the next controversial topic, shown tonight on C4 ...
The Dispatches Debate:
Muslims and Free Speech
Channel 4 Monday 23 October 2006, 8pm
Jon Snow chairs a special Dispatches debate on whether Muslims are threatening freedom of speech in the UK. Recent events such as the protests over remarks made by the Pope about the nature of Islam; to demonstrations over the publication of Danish cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed; to the censorship of works of art depicting holy scriptures have all raised an urgent question: whether the objections made by Muslims are legitimate reasons to prevent publication or display? Jon Snow will question a series of guests who have been directly involved in these controversies.
Anyone any views on this they wish to share?
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Will hoodies soon be getting unbanned from town centres and stores and such?
Corazon wrote:
> Sibs wrote:
> Just as it may be someone's decision to
> wear makeup to look like a 'goth' or whatever.
>
> Dont get me started on Goths! :D
But whether you like/agree with it or not, you surely wouldn't try to ban people from dressing as 'goth's? At the end of the day, people have a right to wear what they please. Just to turn the argument on it's head, if someone had a T-Shirt or other item of clothing with a print of one of those cartoons mocking Islam (along with just about every other religion) and people were clamouring for it to be banned to wear something, would you then be saying the person had the right to wear whatever they wanted?
> Voice is only a small part of communication so yes you're
> lacking communication and also i think dehumanising people.
Who is dehumanising people? If the women is forced to wear the veil, it's bad. If it's her choice, well, so be it.
> You also have to ask what message it sends to the children when
> their teacher believes it's wrong to show her face to men. This
> is not the culture we live in. We're a vain, looks obsessed
> society damnit and long may it stay that way :D
Maybe it would be good for kids to realise people aren't defined by their looks... Your jokey point about us being a vain, beauty-obsessed society... It's really not such a great thing.
> Honestly i just think this comes down to being defensive of this
> countrys culture. There is a definite feeling of Britishness
> being supressed in favour of a mix. You can call that racism if
> you like, i think it's a natural instinct to protect something.
How is 'Britishness' (whatever the hell that is) being suppressed by a tiny minority of people CHOOSING to wear an item of clothing? This isn't about 'Britishness', it's about people wearing something that is part of their own identity. Just because their identity is more diverse than the 'traditional' or steretypical 'British identity', doesn't mean they are somehow suppressing Britishness.
> Seeing as no-one answered last time i asked. Did this stuff
> happen before 9/11? Did Muslim women just not teach or did they
> accept the rules of common sense?
Obviously Muslim women taught. I would suspect most who wore the veil taught in Muslim schools (so it wasn't seen as an issue). I think the more pertinent question would be whether or not the media or general public would have cared if someone was teaching while wearing a veil pre-9/11...
> Sibs wrote:
> Just as it may be someone's decision to
> wear makeup to look like a 'goth' or whatever.
>
> Dont get me started on Goths! :D
But whether you like/agree with it or not, you surely wouldn't try to ban people from dressing as 'goth's? At the end of the day, people have a right to wear what they please. Just to turn the argument on it's head, if someone had a T-Shirt or other item of clothing with a print of one of those cartoons mocking Islam (along with just about every other religion) and people were clamouring for it to be banned to wear something, would you then be saying the person had the right to wear whatever they wanted?
> Voice is only a small part of communication so yes you're
> lacking communication and also i think dehumanising people.
Who is dehumanising people? If the women is forced to wear the veil, it's bad. If it's her choice, well, so be it.
> You also have to ask what message it sends to the children when
> their teacher believes it's wrong to show her face to men. This
> is not the culture we live in. We're a vain, looks obsessed
> society damnit and long may it stay that way :D
Maybe it would be good for kids to realise people aren't defined by their looks... Your jokey point about us being a vain, beauty-obsessed society... It's really not such a great thing.
> Honestly i just think this comes down to being defensive of this
> countrys culture. There is a definite feeling of Britishness
> being supressed in favour of a mix. You can call that racism if
> you like, i think it's a natural instinct to protect something.
How is 'Britishness' (whatever the hell that is) being suppressed by a tiny minority of people CHOOSING to wear an item of clothing? This isn't about 'Britishness', it's about people wearing something that is part of their own identity. Just because their identity is more diverse than the 'traditional' or steretypical 'British identity', doesn't mean they are somehow suppressing Britishness.
> Seeing as no-one answered last time i asked. Did this stuff
> happen before 9/11? Did Muslim women just not teach or did they
> accept the rules of common sense?
Obviously Muslim women taught. I would suspect most who wore the veil taught in Muslim schools (so it wasn't seen as an issue). I think the more pertinent question would be whether or not the media or general public would have cared if someone was teaching while wearing a veil pre-9/11...
Sibs wrote:
> Just as it may be someone's decision to
> wear makeup to look like a 'goth' or whatever.
Dont get me started on Goths! :D
> Obviously there are some situations where a veil would not be
> appropriate, but even the teacher situation I don't really
> understand... Is a veil really detrimental to childrens
> education? I don't know really, I'd assume as long as they can
> hear and understand the teacher properly, there should be no
> problem. Although if she intended to wear it during lessons, she
> really should have worn it to the job interview, but hey, getting
> a bit bogged down in the specifics of that case...
Voice is only a small part of communication so yes you're lacking communication and also i think dehumanising people.
You also have to ask what message it sends to the children when their teacher believes it's wrong to show her face to men. This is not the culture we live in. We're a vain, looks obsessed society damnit and long may it stay that way :D
Honestly i just think this comes down to being defensive of this countrys culture. There is a definite feeling of Britishness being supressed in favour of a mix. You can call that racism if you like, i think it's a natural instinct to protect something.
Seeing as no-one answered last time i asked. Did this stuff happen before 9/11? Did Muslim women just not teach or did they accept the rules of common sense?
> Just as it may be someone's decision to
> wear makeup to look like a 'goth' or whatever.
Dont get me started on Goths! :D
> Obviously there are some situations where a veil would not be
> appropriate, but even the teacher situation I don't really
> understand... Is a veil really detrimental to childrens
> education? I don't know really, I'd assume as long as they can
> hear and understand the teacher properly, there should be no
> problem. Although if she intended to wear it during lessons, she
> really should have worn it to the job interview, but hey, getting
> a bit bogged down in the specifics of that case...
Voice is only a small part of communication so yes you're lacking communication and also i think dehumanising people.
You also have to ask what message it sends to the children when their teacher believes it's wrong to show her face to men. This is not the culture we live in. We're a vain, looks obsessed society damnit and long may it stay that way :D
Honestly i just think this comes down to being defensive of this countrys culture. There is a definite feeling of Britishness being supressed in favour of a mix. You can call that racism if you like, i think it's a natural instinct to protect something.
Seeing as no-one answered last time i asked. Did this stuff happen before 9/11? Did Muslim women just not teach or did they accept the rules of common sense?
I really don't understand why there's been this sudden outrage at people wearing veils...
Given that we're (supposedly) living in a free society, why can't people choose to wear what they damn well please? I certainly don't agree with women being 'forced' to wear a veil in order to somehow prove their faith, but if it's their own decision, fair enough. Just as it may be someone's decision to wear makeup to look like a 'goth' or whatever.
Obviously there are some situations where a veil would not be appropriate, but even the teacher situation I don't really understand... Is a veil really detrimental to childrens education? I don't know really, I'd assume as long as they can hear and understand the teacher properly, there should be no problem. Although if she intended to wear it during lessons, she really should have worn it to the job interview, but hey, getting a bit bogged down in the specifics of that case...
Anyway. What's the big deal about veils? Oh noes, you can't see the persons face!!! If they don't want you to see their face for whatever reason, big deal... Get over it.
The security angle? If they're going into some security critical area they will surely get checked and have to remove the veil... If they're not in a security critical area then it'd be just as easy for you or I to hide our identity... Shave your head or get a strange looking haircut, whatever, if people want to they will find a way to make themselves look 'different' so they are harder to recognise... So I really don't see what the big fuss is with regards to security...
Isn't it slightly ironic that this thread is discussing our freedom to talk about taking away other peoples freedoms...?
Given that we're (supposedly) living in a free society, why can't people choose to wear what they damn well please? I certainly don't agree with women being 'forced' to wear a veil in order to somehow prove their faith, but if it's their own decision, fair enough. Just as it may be someone's decision to wear makeup to look like a 'goth' or whatever.
Obviously there are some situations where a veil would not be appropriate, but even the teacher situation I don't really understand... Is a veil really detrimental to childrens education? I don't know really, I'd assume as long as they can hear and understand the teacher properly, there should be no problem. Although if she intended to wear it during lessons, she really should have worn it to the job interview, but hey, getting a bit bogged down in the specifics of that case...
Anyway. What's the big deal about veils? Oh noes, you can't see the persons face!!! If they don't want you to see their face for whatever reason, big deal... Get over it.
The security angle? If they're going into some security critical area they will surely get checked and have to remove the veil... If they're not in a security critical area then it'd be just as easy for you or I to hide our identity... Shave your head or get a strange looking haircut, whatever, if people want to they will find a way to make themselves look 'different' so they are harder to recognise... So I really don't see what the big fuss is with regards to security...
Isn't it slightly ironic that this thread is discussing our freedom to talk about taking away other peoples freedoms...?
Corazon wrote:
> Sibelius wrote:
> But isn't this country's most cherished and important ethical
> rule Freedom of Expression?
>
> No, it isn't. There are more important freedoms and rights that
> come above the right to wear a piece of cloth over your face.
Freedom of expression is much more than choosing what you want to wear. Freedom of speech, belief, opinion, religion, art, imagination. I don't understand why this veil thing has got so many people riled. What's next on the list of forbidden expressions? Is that the way you really want to go?
> Sibelius wrote:
> But isn't this country's most cherished and important ethical
> rule Freedom of Expression?
>
> No, it isn't. There are more important freedoms and rights that
> come above the right to wear a piece of cloth over your face.
Freedom of expression is much more than choosing what you want to wear. Freedom of speech, belief, opinion, religion, art, imagination. I don't understand why this veil thing has got so many people riled. What's next on the list of forbidden expressions? Is that the way you really want to go?
Sibelius wrote:
> But isn't this country's most cherished and important ethical
> rule Freedom of Expression?
No, it isn't. There are more important freedoms and rights that come above the right to wear a piece of cloth over your face.
> But isn't this country's most cherished and important ethical
> rule Freedom of Expression?
No, it isn't. There are more important freedoms and rights that come above the right to wear a piece of cloth over your face.
Sibelius wrote:
> But isn't this country's most cherished and important ethical
> rule the Freedom of Expression?
True, but this takes it to the limits though, in France if they dont accept the French way of life they can leave.
When did you last see a Church in a Muslim country?
> But isn't this country's most cherished and important ethical
> rule the Freedom of Expression?
True, but this takes it to the limits though, in France if they dont accept the French way of life they can leave.
When did you last see a Church in a Muslim country?
Seifer wrote:
> I think that Muslims should have to abide by rules set down in
> the UK. If they want to wear veils why cant they go to Muslim
> Countries?
But isn't this country's most cherished and important ethical rule the Freedom of Expression?
> I think that Muslims should have to abide by rules set down in
> the UK. If they want to wear veils why cant they go to Muslim
> Countries?
But isn't this country's most cherished and important ethical rule the Freedom of Expression?
I think that Muslims should have to abide by rules set down in the UK. If they want to wear veils why cant they go to Muslim Countries? I think society should not tolerate this because its not a Muslim country but they keep demanding laws especially for them. Women who wear veils remind me of post boxes.
Actually I can feel it winding me up already ... I'm going to watch fifth gear instead ... :P
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