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Heh, two controversial threads about Muslim values by me in a couple of weeks ... think it's just a subject I find interesting, all religion and its effect on our way of life. Being non-religious I'm concerned that religious values are dictating our laws in a country that is supposed to enjoy 'freedom of speech'. I'm not picking at the Islamic faith ... but it's all over the media right now and some things I find hard to ignore ...
I feel the same about any group of people that tries to force others to live by it's values ... whoever that might be.
So here's the next controversial topic, shown tonight on C4 ...
The Dispatches Debate:
Muslims and Free Speech
Channel 4 Monday 23 October 2006, 8pm
Jon Snow chairs a special Dispatches debate on whether Muslims are threatening freedom of speech in the UK. Recent events such as the protests over remarks made by the Pope about the nature of Islam; to demonstrations over the publication of Danish cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed; to the censorship of works of art depicting holy scriptures have all raised an urgent question: whether the objections made by Muslims are legitimate reasons to prevent publication or display? Jon Snow will question a series of guests who have been directly involved in these controversies.
Anyone any views on this they wish to share?
I feel the same about any group of people that tries to force others to live by it's values ... whoever that might be.
So here's the next controversial topic, shown tonight on C4 ...
The Dispatches Debate:
Muslims and Free Speech
Channel 4 Monday 23 October 2006, 8pm
Jon Snow chairs a special Dispatches debate on whether Muslims are threatening freedom of speech in the UK. Recent events such as the protests over remarks made by the Pope about the nature of Islam; to demonstrations over the publication of Danish cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed; to the censorship of works of art depicting holy scriptures have all raised an urgent question: whether the objections made by Muslims are legitimate reasons to prevent publication or display? Jon Snow will question a series of guests who have been directly involved in these controversies.
Anyone any views on this they wish to share?
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Borat §agdiyev wrote:
... will its view on freedom of speech and
> democracy, overpower what we already have in place? Will we be
> scared to speak out about religion for fear of action being
> taken against us ... it's worrying to me to think one day you'll
> be arrested for saying damning things about religion. And people
> wonder why I can't stick it ...
But we're at the opposite end of this, with the Prime Minister defending his party's stance AGAINST this type of thing. And surely becoming a more multi-cultural community would have the opposite effect of what you fear? It's not as if Muslims are taking over Britain, with a very low percentage in this country.
And it's not religion that encourages intolerance, it's an excuse. If this is the reason to get rid of religion, you may as well get rid of ethics, morals and politics in general, as all of these things are considerably able to start conflict and are used to defend intolerance to others who hold different values.
And I would have to ask you of your definition of our 'culture', is it the Celtic culture, Roman culture, Angle, Saxon, Germanic, Galic, Viking or any number of cultures that have gone to make up this country? Or is it something new, being in flux all the time as it has always been?
... will its view on freedom of speech and
> democracy, overpower what we already have in place? Will we be
> scared to speak out about religion for fear of action being
> taken against us ... it's worrying to me to think one day you'll
> be arrested for saying damning things about religion. And people
> wonder why I can't stick it ...
But we're at the opposite end of this, with the Prime Minister defending his party's stance AGAINST this type of thing. And surely becoming a more multi-cultural community would have the opposite effect of what you fear? It's not as if Muslims are taking over Britain, with a very low percentage in this country.
And it's not religion that encourages intolerance, it's an excuse. If this is the reason to get rid of religion, you may as well get rid of ethics, morals and politics in general, as all of these things are considerably able to start conflict and are used to defend intolerance to others who hold different values.
And I would have to ask you of your definition of our 'culture', is it the Celtic culture, Roman culture, Angle, Saxon, Germanic, Galic, Viking or any number of cultures that have gone to make up this country? Or is it something new, being in flux all the time as it has always been?
Chaos wrote:
> Our laws were based on a society that should follow and obey one
> religion and one set of standards. We need to move on from this,
> we need to accept the fact that we allowed immigration into the
> UK, and now we need to be prepared to welcome these new
> religions - not attack them when we feel threatened or
> worried.
>
> Oh I'm getting all worked up now...
This isn't really about 'attacking' religions, this is about whether or not the introduction of more strict ethnic religions into our society, are bringing with them the taboos and restriction of expression that are part of these foreign cultures.
We are proud to be a nation of democracy and freedom of speech ... many muslim countries do not enjoy such freedoms, the worry is that as this religion and culture builds in size and power, within our country ... will its view on freedom of speech and democracy, overpower what we already have in place? Will we be scared to speak out about religion for fear of action being taken against us ... it's worrying to me to think one day you'll be arrested for saying damning things about religion. And people wonder why I can't stick it ...
> Our laws were based on a society that should follow and obey one
> religion and one set of standards. We need to move on from this,
> we need to accept the fact that we allowed immigration into the
> UK, and now we need to be prepared to welcome these new
> religions - not attack them when we feel threatened or
> worried.
>
> Oh I'm getting all worked up now...
This isn't really about 'attacking' religions, this is about whether or not the introduction of more strict ethnic religions into our society, are bringing with them the taboos and restriction of expression that are part of these foreign cultures.
We are proud to be a nation of democracy and freedom of speech ... many muslim countries do not enjoy such freedoms, the worry is that as this religion and culture builds in size and power, within our country ... will its view on freedom of speech and democracy, overpower what we already have in place? Will we be scared to speak out about religion for fear of action being taken against us ... it's worrying to me to think one day you'll be arrested for saying damning things about religion. And people wonder why I can't stick it ...
biglime wrote:
> Let's also not taking things out or proportion. Forget all the
> news about hundreds of thousands of immigrants, illegals visas
> and so on - the country is still 72% Christian, though only 10%
> choose to attend worship - their choice.
You've just got things out of proportion by saying 72% of this country is Christian. I resent being lumped in with this fading cult.
I recently went to hospital, they asked what my religion is - I said "none". I suspect many others say the same. I refute the notion that this is a Christian country. I'm sick of hearing it, especially in the wake of this veil row.
> Let's also not taking things out or proportion. Forget all the
> news about hundreds of thousands of immigrants, illegals visas
> and so on - the country is still 72% Christian, though only 10%
> choose to attend worship - their choice.
You've just got things out of proportion by saying 72% of this country is Christian. I resent being lumped in with this fading cult.
I recently went to hospital, they asked what my religion is - I said "none". I suspect many others say the same. I refute the notion that this is a Christian country. I'm sick of hearing it, especially in the wake of this veil row.
double post ¬_¬
To be honest, I find this whole debate almost childish. It seems to be something that the media and the press are blowing out of proportion, and we as the public are only getting a single, mis-shapen view on the truth, and being neglected when it comes down to the real issues at hand.
First off, I'd like to state that I have very select opinions when it comes to religion, and seem to become quite stubborn when discussing these kinds of issues.
Now, when it comes down to the veil issue, I say why not. I mean come on, it's simply a piece of fabric that's covering someone's face. It's part of their religion, and it's not doing us any harm, and the very worst, all it seems to do is attract more attention to the person wearing it.
We as a country need to get over ourselves and realise the big wide world out there, because there's more to it than what we want to believe.
Our laws were based on a society that should follow and obey one religion and one set of standards. We need to move on from this, we need to accept the fact that we allowed immigration into the UK, and now we need to be prepared to welcome these new religions - not attack them when we feel threatened or worried.
Oh I'm getting all worked up now...
First off, I'd like to state that I have very select opinions when it comes to religion, and seem to become quite stubborn when discussing these kinds of issues.
Now, when it comes down to the veil issue, I say why not. I mean come on, it's simply a piece of fabric that's covering someone's face. It's part of their religion, and it's not doing us any harm, and the very worst, all it seems to do is attract more attention to the person wearing it.
We as a country need to get over ourselves and realise the big wide world out there, because there's more to it than what we want to believe.
Our laws were based on a society that should follow and obey one religion and one set of standards. We need to move on from this, we need to accept the fact that we allowed immigration into the UK, and now we need to be prepared to welcome these new religions - not attack them when we feel threatened or worried.
Oh I'm getting all worked up now...
Seifer wrote:
> I see it this way. We are a Christian Country, Muslims are
> obviously attracted to our way of life or they wouldn't be
> living here, so why dont they move if they want to wear veils
> and stay if they want to be a part of this country. The Muslim
> community is simply splitting itself apart from the rest of
> society and that can only be a bad thing.
First off I find it hypocritical that you are all for freedom of speech, particularly when the malcontent has been against Muslims, but are then quick to denounce freedom of expression when the argument is for them. Double standards are so obvious yet needed to be pointed out constantly for some to see the light.
Britain will always be a Christian country, much like the US, Europe, parts of Asia and Africa. The communities will never let their way of life change, but it isn't about that. Your everyday Muslim on the street, veil or not, isn't forcing you to accept their way of life, their religion. They're keeping themselves to themselves, interacting with society when it requires. Not mixing business with pleasure, if you have to be blunt.
Let's also not taking things out or proportion. Forget all the news about hundreds of thousands of immigrants, illegals visas and so on - the country is still 72% Christian, though only 10% choose to attend worship - their choice. Under 2 million are Muslim - that's 1% of the country. Go figure.
> I see it this way. We are a Christian Country, Muslims are
> obviously attracted to our way of life or they wouldn't be
> living here, so why dont they move if they want to wear veils
> and stay if they want to be a part of this country. The Muslim
> community is simply splitting itself apart from the rest of
> society and that can only be a bad thing.
First off I find it hypocritical that you are all for freedom of speech, particularly when the malcontent has been against Muslims, but are then quick to denounce freedom of expression when the argument is for them. Double standards are so obvious yet needed to be pointed out constantly for some to see the light.
Britain will always be a Christian country, much like the US, Europe, parts of Asia and Africa. The communities will never let their way of life change, but it isn't about that. Your everyday Muslim on the street, veil or not, isn't forcing you to accept their way of life, their religion. They're keeping themselves to themselves, interacting with society when it requires. Not mixing business with pleasure, if you have to be blunt.
Let's also not taking things out or proportion. Forget all the news about hundreds of thousands of immigrants, illegals visas and so on - the country is still 72% Christian, though only 10% choose to attend worship - their choice. Under 2 million are Muslim - that's 1% of the country. Go figure.
The main culprit throughout has been the media, and using its power to spin and blow things up way out of proportion. Muslim women have been wearing veils for decades now (I've seen them since I was born, I'm sure it extended back beyond then). They have never faced out and out discrimination and their freedom of expression as they do now.
People may hide feelings of hostility because they simply don't look, walk or dress like them, but while that feeling usually goes away and is soon forgotten, it seems newspapers and failing that, the Government (let's not forget who started the whole veil fuss just to win back middle class Britain votes) want to keep the pressure on Muslims.
Xenophobes think that through this pressure, Muslims would just 'go back to where they came from' (some of you probably have no idea how ignorant this sentence alone is), but truth be told Muslims are here to stay, and the sooner we as a nation encourage integration rather than division and limited tolerance, which is our current policy, the better.
Ironically, this programme will only serve to do more harm, simply through its coverage, then educate.
People may hide feelings of hostility because they simply don't look, walk or dress like them, but while that feeling usually goes away and is soon forgotten, it seems newspapers and failing that, the Government (let's not forget who started the whole veil fuss just to win back middle class Britain votes) want to keep the pressure on Muslims.
Xenophobes think that through this pressure, Muslims would just 'go back to where they came from' (some of you probably have no idea how ignorant this sentence alone is), but truth be told Muslims are here to stay, and the sooner we as a nation encourage integration rather than division and limited tolerance, which is our current policy, the better.
Ironically, this programme will only serve to do more harm, simply through its coverage, then educate.
I see it this way. We are a Christian Country, Muslims are obviously attracted to our way of life or they wouldn't be living here, so why dont they move if they want to wear veils and stay if they want to be a part of this country. The Muslim community is simply splitting itself apart from the rest of society and that can only be a bad thing.
Although we have a human rights act and various European laws, we don't actually have a 'freedom of speech' law as such in this country.
The country is run on the foundation of Christian values because of the history of our particular type of politics and the way they were elected. This is not the same as religion dictating the law though. And this is still a predominantly Christian country that accepts other religions (including Atheism)
The Evangelical Christians are annoying to other, more sensible Christians as well, believe it or not (and that last statement is ironic in itself). However, in history Religion does not always (or even often) hinder science and learning. It's probably had more of an effect now in those parts of the US which refuse to teach what is currently believed to be the correct interpretation of how we came about than it has down through the years (and it was religion AND science that disagreed on the world being round).
And I always re-iterate that science is in fact a belief system in itself, the belief in known facts based on our knowledge of the physical universe at present. This changes with time and scientific knowledge is replaced by new knowledge which sometimes contridicts the old. Therefore, faith in science can never be 100% futureproof, even though it is the nearest we get to understanding our world at the time.
Anyway, did these battles with culture and the rights of other people in the UK happen before 9-11? Yes. But the press didn't think they'd sell newspapers or make headline news back then. And 9-11 did cause us to look at our society in more detail and try to work out our place in the world. Shame it took something like that to do it.
As for veils. I think that it's a topic that you can have an opinion on, but it's very hard to agree on. The issue is one that needs a compromise on both sides.
But think about this: What do we mean by 'our country' or 'our culture'? Are we doing the right thing by almost closing our borders to this little island and suggesting that we should try and be different to the rest of the world, or should we all be striving for a world unified in working together, through compromise and understanding and through the strengths of all our cultures combining?
The country is run on the foundation of Christian values because of the history of our particular type of politics and the way they were elected. This is not the same as religion dictating the law though. And this is still a predominantly Christian country that accepts other religions (including Atheism)
The Evangelical Christians are annoying to other, more sensible Christians as well, believe it or not (and that last statement is ironic in itself). However, in history Religion does not always (or even often) hinder science and learning. It's probably had more of an effect now in those parts of the US which refuse to teach what is currently believed to be the correct interpretation of how we came about than it has down through the years (and it was religion AND science that disagreed on the world being round).
And I always re-iterate that science is in fact a belief system in itself, the belief in known facts based on our knowledge of the physical universe at present. This changes with time and scientific knowledge is replaced by new knowledge which sometimes contridicts the old. Therefore, faith in science can never be 100% futureproof, even though it is the nearest we get to understanding our world at the time.
Anyway, did these battles with culture and the rights of other people in the UK happen before 9-11? Yes. But the press didn't think they'd sell newspapers or make headline news back then. And 9-11 did cause us to look at our society in more detail and try to work out our place in the world. Shame it took something like that to do it.
As for veils. I think that it's a topic that you can have an opinion on, but it's very hard to agree on. The issue is one that needs a compromise on both sides.
But think about this: What do we mean by 'our country' or 'our culture'? Are we doing the right thing by almost closing our borders to this little island and suggesting that we should try and be different to the rest of the world, or should we all be striving for a world unified in working together, through compromise and understanding and through the strengths of all our cultures combining?
Sibs wrote:
> But whether you like/agree with it or not, you surely wouldn't
> try to ban people from dressing as 'goth's?
I'd object to them dressing like that when they're teaching children. It's unprofessional.
> Just to turn
> the argument on it's head, if someone had a T-Shirt or other
> item of clothing with a print of one of those cartoons mocking
> Islam (along with just about every other religion) and people
> were clamouring for it to be banned to wear something, would you
> then be saying the person had the right to wear whatever they
> wanted?
No i wouldnt. Personal freedom only extends so far, when you start doing something that offends other people it's probably best to just do the simple thing and avoid stirring up trouble.
> How is 'Britishness' (whatever the hell that is) being
> suppressed by a tiny minority of people CHOOSING to wear an item
> of clothing?
Firstly, i'm looking at the bigger picture, not just the veil.
I didn't say anything about it being supressed by Muslims either. There is a definite feeling around here that it's not the Muslims that are the problem, its the councils and local authorities being seen to give them special treatment (or any ethnic group). Perceived correctly or not, it's causing a lot of bitterness.
> This isn't about 'Britishness', it's about people
> wearing something that is part of their own identity.
Thats correct. However, at what point do you say "This is causing more trouble than it's worth?" It divides people, dehumanises them and what for? Perception is hugely important at the moment and the perception of Muslims is they dont adapt or merge into the rest of society. That perception is of course wrong to an extent but it's still causing ill feeling and so the media have picked on something that is, in the grand scheme of things, not that important and said "Hey, prove you can adapt, do this small thing" The good will or barriers it would take down i think are more beneficial in the long run to peoples way of life which is why i'm arguing this with you despite getting bored of this sometime last week.
> But whether you like/agree with it or not, you surely wouldn't
> try to ban people from dressing as 'goth's?
I'd object to them dressing like that when they're teaching children. It's unprofessional.
> Just to turn
> the argument on it's head, if someone had a T-Shirt or other
> item of clothing with a print of one of those cartoons mocking
> Islam (along with just about every other religion) and people
> were clamouring for it to be banned to wear something, would you
> then be saying the person had the right to wear whatever they
> wanted?
No i wouldnt. Personal freedom only extends so far, when you start doing something that offends other people it's probably best to just do the simple thing and avoid stirring up trouble.
> How is 'Britishness' (whatever the hell that is) being
> suppressed by a tiny minority of people CHOOSING to wear an item
> of clothing?
Firstly, i'm looking at the bigger picture, not just the veil.
I didn't say anything about it being supressed by Muslims either. There is a definite feeling around here that it's not the Muslims that are the problem, its the councils and local authorities being seen to give them special treatment (or any ethnic group). Perceived correctly or not, it's causing a lot of bitterness.
> This isn't about 'Britishness', it's about people
> wearing something that is part of their own identity.
Thats correct. However, at what point do you say "This is causing more trouble than it's worth?" It divides people, dehumanises them and what for? Perception is hugely important at the moment and the perception of Muslims is they dont adapt or merge into the rest of society. That perception is of course wrong to an extent but it's still causing ill feeling and so the media have picked on something that is, in the grand scheme of things, not that important and said "Hey, prove you can adapt, do this small thing" The good will or barriers it would take down i think are more beneficial in the long run to peoples way of life which is why i'm arguing this with you despite getting bored of this sometime last week.
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