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Heh, two controversial threads about Muslim values by me in a couple of weeks ... think it's just a subject I find interesting, all religion and its effect on our way of life. Being non-religious I'm concerned that religious values are dictating our laws in a country that is supposed to enjoy 'freedom of speech'. I'm not picking at the Islamic faith ... but it's all over the media right now and some things I find hard to ignore ...
I feel the same about any group of people that tries to force others to live by it's values ... whoever that might be.
So here's the next controversial topic, shown tonight on C4 ...
The Dispatches Debate:
Muslims and Free Speech
Channel 4 Monday 23 October 2006, 8pm
Jon Snow chairs a special Dispatches debate on whether Muslims are threatening freedom of speech in the UK. Recent events such as the protests over remarks made by the Pope about the nature of Islam; to demonstrations over the publication of Danish cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed; to the censorship of works of art depicting holy scriptures have all raised an urgent question: whether the objections made by Muslims are legitimate reasons to prevent publication or display? Jon Snow will question a series of guests who have been directly involved in these controversies.
Anyone any views on this they wish to share?
I feel the same about any group of people that tries to force others to live by it's values ... whoever that might be.
So here's the next controversial topic, shown tonight on C4 ...
The Dispatches Debate:
Muslims and Free Speech
Channel 4 Monday 23 October 2006, 8pm
Jon Snow chairs a special Dispatches debate on whether Muslims are threatening freedom of speech in the UK. Recent events such as the protests over remarks made by the Pope about the nature of Islam; to demonstrations over the publication of Danish cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed; to the censorship of works of art depicting holy scriptures have all raised an urgent question: whether the objections made by Muslims are legitimate reasons to prevent publication or display? Jon Snow will question a series of guests who have been directly involved in these controversies.
Anyone any views on this they wish to share?
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> First off I find it hypocritical that you are all for freedom of
> speech, particularly when the malcontent has been against
> Muslims, but are then quick to denounce freedom of expression
> when the argument is for them. Double standards are so obvious
> yet needed to be pointed out constantly for some to see the
> light.
It makes community relations more difficult if women wear veils though. Be honest how many Muslims do you know that wear a veil?
In certain situations women should remove their veil, that is my personal point of view.
> Britain will always be a Christian country, much like the US,
> Europe, parts of Asia and Africa. The communities will never let
> their way of life change, but it isn't about that. Your everyday
> Muslim on the street, veil or not, isn't forcing you to accept
> their way of life, their religion. They're keeping themselves to
> themselves, interacting with society when it requires. Not mixing
> business with pleasure, if you have to be blunt.
Communities are seperated from each other now though, the rest of Britain are divided from the Muslim communities.
> Let's also not taking things out or proportion. Forget all the
> news about hundreds of thousands of immigrants, illegals visas
> and so on - the country is still 72% Christian, though only 10%
> choose to attend worship - their choice. Under 2 million are
> Muslim - that's 1% of the country. Go figure.
Plus in certain places 30% of people there are Muslims and this isn't just small towns this is big citys. I don't know about you but i feel this is a society where it is important to see who your speaking to when your speaking to them. Like it or not communities and Muslim Communities are divided in parallel communities and sooner or later this is going to create hatred. It already has, look at the incident where police raided a house and accused two innocent Muslims of having bombs,(Happens most weeks) most people now a days are scared of Muslim people wether you like it or not. It would be better if we could get along. Another thing, how many illegal immigrants come into this country a year and how many are Muslim? You'd be very surprised.
> speech, particularly when the malcontent has been against
> Muslims, but are then quick to denounce freedom of expression
> when the argument is for them. Double standards are so obvious
> yet needed to be pointed out constantly for some to see the
> light.
It makes community relations more difficult if women wear veils though. Be honest how many Muslims do you know that wear a veil?
In certain situations women should remove their veil, that is my personal point of view.
> Britain will always be a Christian country, much like the US,
> Europe, parts of Asia and Africa. The communities will never let
> their way of life change, but it isn't about that. Your everyday
> Muslim on the street, veil or not, isn't forcing you to accept
> their way of life, their religion. They're keeping themselves to
> themselves, interacting with society when it requires. Not mixing
> business with pleasure, if you have to be blunt.
Communities are seperated from each other now though, the rest of Britain are divided from the Muslim communities.
> Let's also not taking things out or proportion. Forget all the
> news about hundreds of thousands of immigrants, illegals visas
> and so on - the country is still 72% Christian, though only 10%
> choose to attend worship - their choice. Under 2 million are
> Muslim - that's 1% of the country. Go figure.
Plus in certain places 30% of people there are Muslims and this isn't just small towns this is big citys. I don't know about you but i feel this is a society where it is important to see who your speaking to when your speaking to them. Like it or not communities and Muslim Communities are divided in parallel communities and sooner or later this is going to create hatred. It already has, look at the incident where police raided a house and accused two innocent Muslims of having bombs,(Happens most weeks) most people now a days are scared of Muslim people wether you like it or not. It would be better if we could get along. Another thing, how many illegal immigrants come into this country a year and how many are Muslim? You'd be very surprised.
pb wrote:
> Plus, there are plenty of western cultural practices that need
> addressing, such as the love of money and greed that has grown
> from certain large countries in the west...
Since when is money and greed exclusive to western countries? That's a human instinct not a western one
> Plus, there are plenty of western cultural practices that need
> addressing, such as the love of money and greed that has grown
> from certain large countries in the west...
Since when is money and greed exclusive to western countries? That's a human instinct not a western one
Aye ... well I guess what works in the Middle East, may not necessarily work here. Over there Religion is completely interwoven with all aspects life and is never questioned.
Over here we are free to question anything and everything, that is what our culture has become certainly more recently .. nothing is taboo anymore.
I think people from strict Religious backgrounds are naturally going to be on the defensive in a culture which has no problem doubting the validity of their beliefs.
But I don't want that to change ... as far as I'm concerned it's only through breaking down taboos and talking about things that we as a race will progress ...
Over here we are free to question anything and everything, that is what our culture has become certainly more recently .. nothing is taboo anymore.
I think people from strict Religious backgrounds are naturally going to be on the defensive in a culture which has no problem doubting the validity of their beliefs.
But I don't want that to change ... as far as I'm concerned it's only through breaking down taboos and talking about things that we as a race will progress ...
Way i see it is when in Rome (or London, Yorkshire, Cornwall etc :-D) then do as. When i was in China i wasn't expecting them to adapt to my way of life and change their ways for me mainly because i knew if i suggested it they'd have laughed in my face and quite rightly to. Do whatever you like at home but be a little more selective outside of it
I had the made the decision to go there so it was up to me to adjust to that lifestyle and fit in, which i did. If they had said *Hey Ben that hoodie you're wearing covering your face is a bit intimidating to us (especially when it's a foreign guy who's 6'6 wearing it) then i'd have had no problem taking it off, it's not worth all the hassle it would cause and would make it harder for me to integrate and separate me from the community which i already was pretty separate from.
However i do think local councils and of course the media play a big part in how hard it is for the muslims who do want to integrate. When you get crap like councils talking about changing the name of Christmas then that's just going to breed resentment when otherwise there'd have been none (seeing as i don't know a single muslim who actually thinks the name should be changed and have seen countless letters in the local newspaper from them saying the council shouldn't be such idiots and it's just stirring up trouble)
I had the made the decision to go there so it was up to me to adjust to that lifestyle and fit in, which i did. If they had said *Hey Ben that hoodie you're wearing covering your face is a bit intimidating to us (especially when it's a foreign guy who's 6'6 wearing it) then i'd have had no problem taking it off, it's not worth all the hassle it would cause and would make it harder for me to integrate and separate me from the community which i already was pretty separate from.
However i do think local councils and of course the media play a big part in how hard it is for the muslims who do want to integrate. When you get crap like councils talking about changing the name of Christmas then that's just going to breed resentment when otherwise there'd have been none (seeing as i don't know a single muslim who actually thinks the name should be changed and have seen countless letters in the local newspaper from them saying the council shouldn't be such idiots and it's just stirring up trouble)
Borat §agdiyev wrote:
> Now we're having eastern values being pushed onto us ... I'm not
> suggesting one day we'll all wake up and suddenly live in a
> Middle Eastern England, but surely the signs are there that
> these values and beliefs are changing our culture as we know it
> ...
Well, no, they aren't. The signs are there that the eastern cultures are struggling to survive in a western society and often coming under pressure to change, but certainly no pressure at all has been put on our society as a whole to change. Maybe 'acceptance' of some of these things, but certainly any abuse or 'slavery' as you describe it is still illegal in this country no matter what the pretence.
Also, the middle-eastern cultures are interlinked very deeply with their religion, so it really becomes more of an issue with their culture than religion that these things need to be addressed.
Plus, there are plenty of western cultural practices that need addressing, such as the love of money and greed that has grown from certain large countries in the west...
> Now we're having eastern values being pushed onto us ... I'm not
> suggesting one day we'll all wake up and suddenly live in a
> Middle Eastern England, but surely the signs are there that
> these values and beliefs are changing our culture as we know it
> ...
Well, no, they aren't. The signs are there that the eastern cultures are struggling to survive in a western society and often coming under pressure to change, but certainly no pressure at all has been put on our society as a whole to change. Maybe 'acceptance' of some of these things, but certainly any abuse or 'slavery' as you describe it is still illegal in this country no matter what the pretence.
Also, the middle-eastern cultures are interlinked very deeply with their religion, so it really becomes more of an issue with their culture than religion that these things need to be addressed.
Plus, there are plenty of western cultural practices that need addressing, such as the love of money and greed that has grown from certain large countries in the west...
Garin wrote:
> In the last census 72% of population declared themselves as
> christian. Even though they had the option to put no religion
> or to even ignore the question they still declared themselves
> so.
> You live in a christian country, deal with it. :-)
And how many people did they ask in this census?
And how many of the 72% genuinely follow a Christian lifestyle?
And how many really accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour?
How many of them read the Bible?
It sums up another thing I object to: calling ourselves Christian when our lifestyles and actions contradict it.
> In the last census 72% of population declared themselves as
> christian. Even though they had the option to put no religion
> or to even ignore the question they still declared themselves
> so.
> You live in a christian country, deal with it. :-)
And how many people did they ask in this census?
And how many of the 72% genuinely follow a Christian lifestyle?
And how many really accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour?
How many of them read the Bible?
It sums up another thing I object to: calling ourselves Christian when our lifestyles and actions contradict it.
Aye but arranged marriages are not aspects of a 'stringent' subset of religion ... they're widespread ... I also find the treatment of women in a lot of these groups deplorable.
Women, from my experience of Muslim families, which I admit is limited ... are still treated as second to the Men, expected to clean and look after the house and children, to look after their husband and accept whatever tasks he sets out for her.
Maybe it is just one point of view, and yeah, who are we to say our way of thinking is superior ... but this is the west, not the east ... it has taken many years to get things like women voting ... gay marriages .. equal rights for all ... most importantly freedom of speech.
Now we're having eastern values being pushed onto us ... I'm not suggesting one day we'll all wake up and suddenly live in a Middle Eastern England, but surely the signs are there that these values and beliefs are changing our culture as we know it ...
Women, from my experience of Muslim families, which I admit is limited ... are still treated as second to the Men, expected to clean and look after the house and children, to look after their husband and accept whatever tasks he sets out for her.
Maybe it is just one point of view, and yeah, who are we to say our way of thinking is superior ... but this is the west, not the east ... it has taken many years to get things like women voting ... gay marriages .. equal rights for all ... most importantly freedom of speech.
Now we're having eastern values being pushed onto us ... I'm not suggesting one day we'll all wake up and suddenly live in a Middle Eastern England, but surely the signs are there that these values and beliefs are changing our culture as we know it ...
Sibelius wrote:
> You've just got things out of proportion by saying 72% of this
> country is Christian. I resent being lumped in with this fading
> cult.
In the last census 72% of population declared themselves as christian. Even though they had the option to put no religion or to even ignore the question they still declared themselves so.
You live in a christian country, deal with it. :-)
> You've just got things out of proportion by saying 72% of this
> country is Christian. I resent being lumped in with this fading
> cult.
In the last census 72% of population declared themselves as christian. Even though they had the option to put no religion or to even ignore the question they still declared themselves so.
You live in a christian country, deal with it. :-)
But that's not really 'religion' is it? That is 'organised religion' and even then it's only certain subsets of this.
The problem is that you tend to hear more about these more (I want to say fanatical, but they aren't quite that) stringent religious groups because of the fact that they do these things. Most Muslims live and work in society with very little difference other than their place and type of worship and the occasional thing such as not being able to eat certain foods.
The veil also comes under this, with only a very small minority taking up this ancient rule.
The problem is that you tend to hear more about these more (I want to say fanatical, but they aren't quite that) stringent religious groups because of the fact that they do these things. Most Muslims live and work in society with very little difference other than their place and type of worship and the occasional thing such as not being able to eat certain foods.
The veil also comes under this, with only a very small minority taking up this ancient rule.
I'm no traditionalist ... I'm more interested in the contemporary open minded way of thinking. Taboos being broken all the time, people seemed to be opening up more and more, we as a nation seemed more willing to discuss anything at all, prejudice aside.
I realise the irony of talking about prejudice, but when I read about artworks being banned, or demonstrations about some 'offensive' comments, I can't help but think we're taking a step back ... we're regressing back to paranoia and witch burning. And religion always seems to be at the centre of it all.
Whether I'm just seriously misinformed ... and I accept I might just be swallowing yet more exaggerated nonsense dreamt up by the media/political machine, I don't know ... but then that's what this debate is about ... an exchange of information and ideas.
I'm biased in that I've seen Religion cause hardship to people I care about, I have a muslim friend who was forced into a marriage, beaten regularly, disowned by her parents, treated like dirt really ... all in the name of Religion. Other friends that had a faith forced onto them since birth, despite them not wanting any part of it, were punished over and over for not wanting to take part ... I can't understand why people do this to their children, or want to force their beliefs onto others ...
I realise the irony of talking about prejudice, but when I read about artworks being banned, or demonstrations about some 'offensive' comments, I can't help but think we're taking a step back ... we're regressing back to paranoia and witch burning. And religion always seems to be at the centre of it all.
Whether I'm just seriously misinformed ... and I accept I might just be swallowing yet more exaggerated nonsense dreamt up by the media/political machine, I don't know ... but then that's what this debate is about ... an exchange of information and ideas.
I'm biased in that I've seen Religion cause hardship to people I care about, I have a muslim friend who was forced into a marriage, beaten regularly, disowned by her parents, treated like dirt really ... all in the name of Religion. Other friends that had a faith forced onto them since birth, despite them not wanting any part of it, were punished over and over for not wanting to take part ... I can't understand why people do this to their children, or want to force their beliefs onto others ...
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