Viewing Thread:
"That's, like, racist, right?"

My Mum came back from Italy yesterday, and she bought me back these sweets:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ paul.whiston/images/nougatine.gif

Is it just me, or is that an Indian Gollywog? I thought those things were highly offensive and were taken off all sorts of packaging years ago (marmalade, swets, etc). Not in Italy!

Practical Magic wrote:

>
> But surely the principle stands that if media is going to be censured
> for possible racism then that applies to everything ? Wasn't the
> Kumar's partly just a way for a majority white audience to laugh at
> another culture yet be seen to do so in a PC way ?

IF that is the principle, yes. I'm saying it's that the principle is to protect minorities from abuse at the hands of majorities.
>
> Same extends into games, Hizbollah make a game where players kill
> Israeli's and numerous MPs/Senators across the world go nuts, yet no
> one seems to be bothered about the numerous foreigners I gun down in
> various western games. Look at the gaming press when that Sikh group
> complained about Hitman 2, again I'm not saying this was my opinion,
> but they generally agreed that the group was complaining about very
> little, yet to the group it mattered.

Hm...yeah, point taken.

>
> I have no doubt you'll dredge it up, in fact I think you'll find it
> sank down the list whilst I was away in Tenerife for two weeks, and
> whilst it would have been lovely to sit in the hotel lobby tapping
> away a response to you there were more pressing concerns and
> activities.

No Bell. You posted a long, tear stained rant about how you were being picked on, then you said you'd never come back. For someone so pro-US, you'r good at attempting a Stalinist re-write. Y'know, I think I'll dig up your final comment for the sake of completeness...I'd like to remind you of just why you didn't respond. Holiday or no, you have to admit that you stomped off in a mighty big huff...
>
> The fact remains that Sassen is one of the most complicated academics
> there is in this field, I only know what I have been taught about her
> and what I have read, and she falls into the same category as Phyllis
> Schafly - a brilliant if near unknown women who has played a major
> role in US policy making for decades. Sassen is obviously in a
> different field, she focuses on globalization and human geography, but
> her work receives very little attention outside the subject area when
> it should.
>

I agree. Just a shame then that her thesis was closer to what I had argued than what you had.

> Go ahead and flag the topic back up, but you know it ends with us both
> posting lists of comments, links and quotes until we tire out so what
> is the point eh ? Plus it always looks really sad when someone pulls
> up a really old topic, in my opinion.

Heh. When I start deciding what is sad based on the opinion of a man who slunk back to a webboard using a different name after swearing he'd never return, I'll have gone too far....

Anyway, I didn't tire of it. I was happy to continue until you shat your nappy. I'm happy to do so again.

Racism seems to be okay if you make jokes about your own race. For example, a well known Iranian comedian in one of his stand up sets said "Have we got any Muslims in the house? Good. But seriously, though, which part of Birmingham are you from?". Laughter and hilarity all round. However if I said that, would it have the same effect? Nope. It would blank, shocked faces with open mouths, staring at me. And yet it would be exactly the same joke. Strange, no?

People are to politically correct these days. I mean, racism is wrong, but changing "blackboard" to "chalkie writing board" is just idiotic. Also, in an effort to not embarrass people who are prone to epilectic fits, some woman wants everyone to use, instead of "brainstorm", "thought shower." Thats absolutely pathetic. Don't get me wrong, I strongly disapprove of any racist behaviour but some people just go OTT to try and stop it.

Light wrote:
> Yup, I agree. However, in the case of, for example, the Kumars, they
> took the mickey out of asian culture as much as WASP culture. Not so
> with Golliwogs and Minstrels...

But surely the principle stands that if media is going to be censured for possible racism then that applies to everything ? Wasn't the Kumar's partly just a way for a majority white audience to laugh at another culture yet be seen to do so in a PC way ?

Same extends into games, Hizbollah make a game where players kill Israeli's and numerous MPs/Senators across the world go nuts, yet no one seems to be bothered about the numerous foreigners I gun down in various western games. Look at the gaming press when that Sikh group complained about Hitman 2, again I'm not saying this was my opinion, but they generally agreed that the group was complaining about very little, yet to the group it mattered.

> Oh really? If that's the case, why is that topic still awaiting a
> reply from you on that very point? Cos y'know, last time when I did
> post on that topic, you basically said you were leaving and never
> coming back...Oh, and in the post before that you avoided most of the
> questions I'd asked you. Me personally, I'd love to go back to that
> topic. You've left a lot of questions unanswered. In fact...

I have no doubt you'll dredge it up, in fact I think you'll find it sank down the list whilst I was away in Tenerife for two weeks, and whilst it would have been lovely to sit in the hotel lobby tapping away a response to you there were more pressing concerns and activities.

The fact remains that Sassen is one of the most complicated academics there is in this field, I only know what I have been taught about her and what I have read, and she falls into the same category as Phyllis Schafly - a brilliant if near unknown women who has played a major role in US policy making for decades. Sassen is obviously in a different field, she focuses on globalization and human geography, but her work receives very little attention outside the subject area when it should.

Go ahead and flag the topic back up, but you know it ends with us both posting lists of comments, links and quotes until we tire out so what is the point eh ? Plus it always looks really sad when someone pulls up a really old topic, in my opinion.

Practical Magic wrote:
> Light wrote:
> To answer your whole post....because a minority taking the
> proverbial
> out a majority has absolutely no threatening or condescending
> overtones (well...it might, but frankly, there are more whites than
> asians in the UK, so I found it difficult to get offended by the
> Kumars).
>
> I'm not saying I was offended, just that if were in the business of
> censuring racism in the media then surely allowing a minority to make
> fun of a majority is itself a racist policy. The point of anti-racism
> is every race is treated equally, no exceptions.

Yup, I agree. However, in the case of, for example, the Kumars, they took the mickey out of asian culture as much as WASP culture. Not so with Golliwogs and Minstrels...
>
> And, at the risk of drawing the topic away, the link to the Sassen
> paper does not support prostitution and if you read it and gained that
> conclusion then you must have misunderstood it. Sassen argues that
> governments in certain countries allow prostitution both legally and
> illegally because it has become embedded within their economies
> because of the globalization processes of the last 400 odd years. She
> also argues that legalisation is in no way positive for females and
> that the major reasons for legalisation are not welfare centred except
> on the surface. Still that's another topic and I guess we're all
> entitled to draw our own conclusions from people's work - though your
> viewpoint of her work does clash with just about every Human
> Geographer scholar in academia.

Oh really? If that's the case, why is that topic still awaiting a reply from you on that very point? Cos y'know, last time when I did post on that topic, you basically said you were leaving and never coming back...Oh, and in the post before that you avoided most of the questions I'd asked you. Me personally, I'd love to go back to that topic. You've left a lot of questions unanswered. In fact...

Light wrote:
> To answer your whole post....because a minority taking the proverbial
> out a majority has absolutely no threatening or condescending
> overtones (well...it might, but frankly, there are more whites than
> asians in the UK, so I found it difficult to get offended by the
> Kumars).

I'm not saying I was offended, just that if were in the business of censuring racism in the media then surely allowing a minority to make fun of a majority is itself a racist policy. The point of anti-racism is every race is treated equally, no exceptions.

And, at the risk of drawing the topic away, the link to the Sassen paper does not support prostitution and if you read it and gained that conclusion then you must have misunderstood it. Sassen argues that governments in certain countries allow prostitution both legally and illegally because it has become embedded within their economies because of the globalization processes of the last 400 odd years. She also argues that legalisation is in no way positive for females and that the major reasons for legalisation are not welfare centred except on the surface. Still that's another topic and I guess we're all entitled to draw our own conclusions from people's work - though your viewpoint of her work does clash with just about every Human Geographer scholar in academia.

Practical Magic wrote:

To answer your whole post....because a minority taking the proverbial out a majority has absolutely no threatening or condescending overtones (well...it might, but frankly, there are more whites than asians in the UK, so I found it difficult to get offended by the Kumars).

On the other hand, a Golliwog (which I personally, as a white Anglo Saxon male, don't find offensive. Funny that...)is redolant of the majority insulting a minority, and all the unpleasantness that entails.

Still, aside from your weak attempt at baiting GB, that was a decent post. More of them please, and less of your simpering and ill-informed examples of just how little you actually do know about politics. C'mon Bell; read articles fully, not just the first line. I still haven't stopped laughing about that "anti-prostitution" article you posted a link to that turned out to be in favour of it's legalisation...

Rosalind wrote:
> It's funny how you always assume any literate newbie is Belldandy.

He's fixated.

Back to topic though.

This Minstrel Show thing, I hadn't heard of it either before now but I gather the general gist of it is white people dressed up in various ways as black people doing a show ?

What I would question is how it can be deemed offensive for white people to do that, yet a show such as The Kumars At Number 42, which pokes fun at what many would consider traditional english life as well as (I think) Indian tradition ( may have the race wrong here) can be considered acceptable and be applauded ? Surely the general rule should be that no one can imitate anything which they are not ?

Having said that, I would consider much of the problems surrounding racism to be caused by the fact that the immediate media reaction to, firstly, attribute racism as a cause in many events on the basis that those involved are of different races, and secondly, to persecuting anything vaguely racist without addressing the issues behind such things.

Take the example of the BNP, every time they are in the media the story is focused on racism, yet our own intelligence services have so far never managed to link more than a handful of members to illegal activites, and at the same time the party continues to grow in support, and much of this support is, I believe, down to the party addressing real issues.

Now their solutions to these issues may be controversial, but the fact is they are addressing them in a way that is understandable to most people, i.e plain english. However, I'm sure most of us here would find these solutions totally unacceptable in today's society. But because the media only ever attacks the BNP as racists, and not on most of it's policies, the policies are never publically discussed, never openly challenged by mainstream politicians in a public way.

Ultimately racism exists because of a lack of understanding in some people about certain things. Often the complaints of racists about issues such as Asylum Seekers are unfounded and the resolutions proposed would not change anything other than to ignite the situation.

I consider the gollywog furore to be an example of the kind of PC society gone mad. I find many depictions of white people annoying and insulting, doesn't mean I'm going to press for them to be outlawed or banned though.

I'm bemused by the concept of a universally acceptable sterotype.

But what are your thoughts on Totoro's post, or the idea of social climates rendering once-acceptable stereotypes and racism no longer tasteful or acceptable?