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The Americans are insane. After all, a nation can only be as good as its leader, and we all know who leads America. The American government listens to just one man, no one else is involved in decision making and no one else matters.
The people, ah yes, the people of America are simply blindly following their leader as the German people followed Hitler and they have no thought for anyone but themselves. There are no Americans that oppose this war with Iraq, because, of course, it affects them all personally.
There was no complaint made against Bush during this whole war march in America, no-one supports the other side and anyone who speaks out should be hung, this is the land of the brave after all, and it’s not brave to support the enemy.
Bush himself has single-handedly pushed the world in to war because of his own personal quest, but it’s clear that all America is behind him. I asked 3 Americans what they thought and they were both adamant that they would support Bush. 3 Separate people with the same view, so that proves beyond doubt that America is a brainwashed mass of zombies who are arrogant and rude (one put the phone down without saying goodbye).
And then there’s the French. Not content with speaking English, they make up their own language. And that Chirac, he’s to blame for all of it. Chirac has stood up to America for his own personal reasons. I’ve heard from a friend down the road that he personally has an account to sell weapons to Iraq and is good friends with Saddam himself.
The French people are all arrogant and smell of Garlic. I know this first-hand, because I went to get some wine from France and met a bunch of French people while I was there. All they do is complain about the English and how we invade their country. Well, we should have finished them off like in that Henry V film and made the place ours.
It’s nearly as bad with the Spanish, they steal all our fish and accuse us of being moaning when we complain about it. We pay their wages, all those holidays we take, they should be grateful to us.
The people, ah yes, the people of America are simply blindly following their leader as the German people followed Hitler and they have no thought for anyone but themselves. There are no Americans that oppose this war with Iraq, because, of course, it affects them all personally.
There was no complaint made against Bush during this whole war march in America, no-one supports the other side and anyone who speaks out should be hung, this is the land of the brave after all, and it’s not brave to support the enemy.
Bush himself has single-handedly pushed the world in to war because of his own personal quest, but it’s clear that all America is behind him. I asked 3 Americans what they thought and they were both adamant that they would support Bush. 3 Separate people with the same view, so that proves beyond doubt that America is a brainwashed mass of zombies who are arrogant and rude (one put the phone down without saying goodbye).
And then there’s the French. Not content with speaking English, they make up their own language. And that Chirac, he’s to blame for all of it. Chirac has stood up to America for his own personal reasons. I’ve heard from a friend down the road that he personally has an account to sell weapons to Iraq and is good friends with Saddam himself.
The French people are all arrogant and smell of Garlic. I know this first-hand, because I went to get some wine from France and met a bunch of French people while I was there. All they do is complain about the English and how we invade their country. Well, we should have finished them off like in that Henry V film and made the place ours.
It’s nearly as bad with the Spanish, they steal all our fish and accuse us of being moaning when we complain about it. We pay their wages, all those holidays we take, they should be grateful to us.
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Goatboy wrote:
> Leave him be?
> Nobody gives a hoot about Mugabe or Algiers or Tibet or El Salvador or
> The Sudan or N Korea or China abusing civil rights.
> What about General Pinochet coming over here for medical treatment?
> He's killed more than Hussein, yet Thatcher liked him.
This whole thing is ridiculous. While we invite Mugabe to a French summit, we tell Saddam that he's going to be dethroned soon. Why can't we at least adopt a common anti-dictator policy and make sure they all know where we stand?
> Leave him be?
> Nobody gives a hoot about Mugabe or Algiers or Tibet or El Salvador or
> The Sudan or N Korea or China abusing civil rights.
> What about General Pinochet coming over here for medical treatment?
> He's killed more than Hussein, yet Thatcher liked him.
This whole thing is ridiculous. While we invite Mugabe to a French summit, we tell Saddam that he's going to be dethroned soon. Why can't we at least adopt a common anti-dictator policy and make sure they all know where we stand?
Once again Bell, I'll repeat what I've told you before; I don't want you to 'shut up' cos I disagree with you. I have said this time and time again, but it suits you to ignore that so that you can continue your mindless "Bush is right!" "Why?" "Because he is right" jaunts into fantasy land.
I take issue with you because you are a self-congratulatory prat who will go to any length and say anything to ensure that you are seen as correct, or at least not demonstratably incorrect. As far as I can tell, all you've been doing when you try to justify your dislike of my opinion is take the criticisms that are levelled at you and level them at me. Which is not a debate. Neither is your continued insistence on bland assertion unsupported by evidence. And neither is your infantile desire to shout abuse at anyone who disagree's whilst whinging about anyone who does the same to you.
However, as Goatboy says, none of this really matters because we don't get a say in how the world is run. Maybe if you stopped basing your entire sense of self worth on the points you score in a web forum due to your political knowledge (because though you are selective about what you consider as fact, and even though it seems to have been learned parrot fashion rather than something you actually comprehend, you do at least have those background facts to support your opinion), you'd actually mature a little as a person. Either that, or you'll respond with another "You're a nasty man" piece of triviality. Up to you really. But seeing as how I'm not the only one taking issue with all the points I've mentioned, I'll be interested to see how you'll react now.
I take issue with you because you are a self-congratulatory prat who will go to any length and say anything to ensure that you are seen as correct, or at least not demonstratably incorrect. As far as I can tell, all you've been doing when you try to justify your dislike of my opinion is take the criticisms that are levelled at you and level them at me. Which is not a debate. Neither is your continued insistence on bland assertion unsupported by evidence. And neither is your infantile desire to shout abuse at anyone who disagree's whilst whinging about anyone who does the same to you.
However, as Goatboy says, none of this really matters because we don't get a say in how the world is run. Maybe if you stopped basing your entire sense of self worth on the points you score in a web forum due to your political knowledge (because though you are selective about what you consider as fact, and even though it seems to have been learned parrot fashion rather than something you actually comprehend, you do at least have those background facts to support your opinion), you'd actually mature a little as a person. Either that, or you'll respond with another "You're a nasty man" piece of triviality. Up to you really. But seeing as how I'm not the only one taking issue with all the points I've mentioned, I'll be interested to see how you'll react now.
Goatboy wrote:
> That's not a criticism, that's me saying sure you may agree with
> stopping Saddam, but *why* do you feel that? What is it about these
> events that make you think the way you do?
I'll tell you.
Before 9/11 I always believed that given a chance this could be a much better world than it is.
Sure, many of us live in relative peace, and comfort, with our families, but so many don't. They live in countries where they suffer terribly, and all because certain people in power in those countries. In a fair few cases these people were helped to that position by us, the West, because they were the lesser of two evils.
Yet these men remained in power when all it would take is our help to remove them, and the nations of the world generally stood by and watched the Balkans, parts of Africa like Somalia, and so many other places descend into war and death. We watched, and did nothing, even when the UN went into the Balkans they largely failed to help save lives because of insane policies set by the UN. By men and women removed by a continent from the battles.
With few exceptions, we, the west, have in my opinion sat safely at home and watched so many die, because we feared our intervention would cause more problems.
In 1991 the UN stopped it's forces from moving on Baghdad, and laid the seeds of this conflict. Endless military advisors made it clear that, to end Saddam ever being a threat again, this was the time to do it. There was no will.
Then 9/11. For a few months a will for nations to unite, then unity is lost in the old divisions once again, the horror is forgotten yet a few, America, the UK, Australia, and some european nations, do not forget. NEw measures push terrorist attacks into other areas - Pakistan, Bali, Africa, and elsewhere. More people die for little reason.
Saddam, for 12 years - and I have mentioned this pre 9/11 - has been left to his own devices. From his post 9/11 response we know where his loyalties lie.
Whether he truly is or is not a danger to us is something I feel no one can be sure. I believe the danger is that, as happened before WW2, the danger is not believe until it is too late. Saddam should have been removed long ago.
The very core of why I believe what I do comes down to this; If I, and others who believe Iraq has WMDs, supports terror e.t.c are right then we could prevent the next mass killing of innocent people. If we're wrong, and he is innocent, then a dictator is removed. If the anti war lobby is right, they save many innocent lives, but if they are wrong they condemn many more to death, and a world to a stark future.
When the stakes are this high can we risk the chance that Iraq is innocent, knowing what taking no action could mean ? I believe not, because history suggests the danger is usually real.
And... I truly do believe in America, and Bush , and to a lesser extent Blair and the course he has set the country on.
~~Belldandy~~
> That's not a criticism, that's me saying sure you may agree with
> stopping Saddam, but *why* do you feel that? What is it about these
> events that make you think the way you do?
I'll tell you.
Before 9/11 I always believed that given a chance this could be a much better world than it is.
Sure, many of us live in relative peace, and comfort, with our families, but so many don't. They live in countries where they suffer terribly, and all because certain people in power in those countries. In a fair few cases these people were helped to that position by us, the West, because they were the lesser of two evils.
Yet these men remained in power when all it would take is our help to remove them, and the nations of the world generally stood by and watched the Balkans, parts of Africa like Somalia, and so many other places descend into war and death. We watched, and did nothing, even when the UN went into the Balkans they largely failed to help save lives because of insane policies set by the UN. By men and women removed by a continent from the battles.
With few exceptions, we, the west, have in my opinion sat safely at home and watched so many die, because we feared our intervention would cause more problems.
In 1991 the UN stopped it's forces from moving on Baghdad, and laid the seeds of this conflict. Endless military advisors made it clear that, to end Saddam ever being a threat again, this was the time to do it. There was no will.
Then 9/11. For a few months a will for nations to unite, then unity is lost in the old divisions once again, the horror is forgotten yet a few, America, the UK, Australia, and some european nations, do not forget. NEw measures push terrorist attacks into other areas - Pakistan, Bali, Africa, and elsewhere. More people die for little reason.
Saddam, for 12 years - and I have mentioned this pre 9/11 - has been left to his own devices. From his post 9/11 response we know where his loyalties lie.
Whether he truly is or is not a danger to us is something I feel no one can be sure. I believe the danger is that, as happened before WW2, the danger is not believe until it is too late. Saddam should have been removed long ago.
The very core of why I believe what I do comes down to this; If I, and others who believe Iraq has WMDs, supports terror e.t.c are right then we could prevent the next mass killing of innocent people. If we're wrong, and he is innocent, then a dictator is removed. If the anti war lobby is right, they save many innocent lives, but if they are wrong they condemn many more to death, and a world to a stark future.
When the stakes are this high can we risk the chance that Iraq is innocent, knowing what taking no action could mean ? I believe not, because history suggests the danger is usually real.
And... I truly do believe in America, and Bush , and to a lesser extent Blair and the course he has set the country on.
~~Belldandy~~
The answer is not war with Iraq. Why should thousands of innocent Iraqi's be killed, simply because America wants rid of one man. Why don't the UN just impose some rule or something to oust Saddam from power and put in a different leader instead. Saddam Hussein may be hiding weapons of mass desctruction, but what if he isn't? I mean, I may be a millionaire, but I'm adamant I'm not and no matter how much you beg I'm not going to be able to give you a grand. You see my point? Though, I may have won the lottery a while back or have a secret fund... :S.
Nah, no war with Iraq. Assassinate Saddam or something. But why should the entire country suffer because of him?
Nah, no war with Iraq. Assassinate Saddam or something. But why should the entire country suffer because of him?
Belldandy wrote:
> The very core of why I believe what I do comes down to this; If I, and
> others who believe Iraq has WMDs, supports terror e.t.c are right then
> we could prevent the next mass killing of innocent people.
---
I appreciate you giving me your personal feelings.
Now what I still don't understand, and what I've asked others before is this:
If you feel this strongly, why have you not joined the army or even gone to these countries and joined guerilla armies fighting these tyrants?
If all you do is post on a forum and watch the news, then you are as guilty as the anti-war protestors by your complacency.
Can you see what I'm trying to say?
You are passionate about this. Yet your feelings and passion achieve nothing, because only a few people bother to read your stuff. Why not get involved in politics or protest?
Why not drop out of your comfy middle-class University life and actually try to affect change?
And my "comfy middle-class" thing isn't a personal insult, it's a blanket insult to all of these moral crusaders that demand "justice" and "freeing the oppressed", but do nothing more than talk or have a standing order set up for Oxfam.
Join The Red Cross, Unicef, CAFOD. Do something more than tell us "left-wing softies" that we're wrong over and over and over.
Because without a committment to your passions and beliefs, it is empty gestures and words.
> The very core of why I believe what I do comes down to this; If I, and
> others who believe Iraq has WMDs, supports terror e.t.c are right then
> we could prevent the next mass killing of innocent people.
---
I appreciate you giving me your personal feelings.
Now what I still don't understand, and what I've asked others before is this:
If you feel this strongly, why have you not joined the army or even gone to these countries and joined guerilla armies fighting these tyrants?
If all you do is post on a forum and watch the news, then you are as guilty as the anti-war protestors by your complacency.
Can you see what I'm trying to say?
You are passionate about this. Yet your feelings and passion achieve nothing, because only a few people bother to read your stuff. Why not get involved in politics or protest?
Why not drop out of your comfy middle-class University life and actually try to affect change?
And my "comfy middle-class" thing isn't a personal insult, it's a blanket insult to all of these moral crusaders that demand "justice" and "freeing the oppressed", but do nothing more than talk or have a standing order set up for Oxfam.
Join The Red Cross, Unicef, CAFOD. Do something more than tell us "left-wing softies" that we're wrong over and over and over.
Because without a committment to your passions and beliefs, it is empty gestures and words.
Goatboy wrote:
> If you feel this strongly, why have you not joined the army or even
> gone to these countries and joined guerilla armies fighting these
> tyrants?
> If all you do is post on a forum and watch the news, then you are as
> guilty as the anti-war protestors by your complacency.
> Can you see what I'm trying to say?
Unfortunately a serious - as in potentially fatal - illness I had when I was 5 left me with certain problems which mean I cannot join any of the armed forces, or even the police, otherwise I would have done so. I see what you are saying, but you're assuming we can all do that, and often we can't.
> Join The Red Cross, Unicef, CAFOD. Do something more than tell us
> "left-wing softies" that we're wrong over and over and
> over.
> Because without a committment to your passions and beliefs, it is
> empty gestures and words.
To drop out of Uni at this stage would be a waste, I could never be part of a UN organisation because I don't agree with the way they are run, andi n the case of the Red Cross, whilst their work is excellent, I don't believe the whole "we're neutral" idea. If I ever come across a group or agency which I do believe in then I will join, but to simply join one out of a need to feel like I'm making a difference is pointless.
~~Belldandy~~
> If you feel this strongly, why have you not joined the army or even
> gone to these countries and joined guerilla armies fighting these
> tyrants?
> If all you do is post on a forum and watch the news, then you are as
> guilty as the anti-war protestors by your complacency.
> Can you see what I'm trying to say?
Unfortunately a serious - as in potentially fatal - illness I had when I was 5 left me with certain problems which mean I cannot join any of the armed forces, or even the police, otherwise I would have done so. I see what you are saying, but you're assuming we can all do that, and often we can't.
> Join The Red Cross, Unicef, CAFOD. Do something more than tell us
> "left-wing softies" that we're wrong over and over and
> over.
> Because without a committment to your passions and beliefs, it is
> empty gestures and words.
To drop out of Uni at this stage would be a waste, I could never be part of a UN organisation because I don't agree with the way they are run, andi n the case of the Red Cross, whilst their work is excellent, I don't believe the whole "we're neutral" idea. If I ever come across a group or agency which I do believe in then I will join, but to simply join one out of a need to feel like I'm making a difference is pointless.
~~Belldandy~~
er-no wrote:
> WWAARRR! HUH!
>
> What is it good for?
>
> Absolutely nothing!
Then may i ask why in Speacial Observe you are holding a gun and Wearing a Army suit?
> WWAARRR! HUH!
>
> What is it good for?
>
> Absolutely nothing!
Then may i ask why in Speacial Observe you are holding a gun and Wearing a Army suit?
Belldandy wrote:
> To drop out of Uni at this stage would be a waste, I could never be
> part of a UN organisation because I don't agree with the way they are
> run, andi n the case of the Red Cross, whilst their work is excellent,
> I don't believe the whole "we're neutral" idea. If I ever
> come across a group or agency which I do believe in then I will join,
> but to simply join one out of a need to feel like I'm making a
> difference is pointless.
---
Now this I understand and respect. Cheers Bell.
> To drop out of Uni at this stage would be a waste, I could never be
> part of a UN organisation because I don't agree with the way they are
> run, andi n the case of the Red Cross, whilst their work is excellent,
> I don't believe the whole "we're neutral" idea. If I ever
> come across a group or agency which I do believe in then I will join,
> but to simply join one out of a need to feel like I'm making a
> difference is pointless.
---
Now this I understand and respect. Cheers Bell.
Ev][L~Dark wrote:
> er-no wrote:
> WWAARRR! HUH!
>
> What is it good for?
>
> Absolutely nothing!
>
> Then may i ask why in Speacial Observe you are holding a gun and
> Wearing a Army suit?
I hate the french.
> er-no wrote:
> WWAARRR! HUH!
>
> What is it good for?
>
> Absolutely nothing!
>
> Then may i ask why in Speacial Observe you are holding a gun and
> Wearing a Army suit?
I hate the french.
Insane Bartender wrote:
>
> Unless you have a better idea? No diplomatic solution I can think of
> will dethrone him.
Just to chuck a spanner in the works, during the first Gulf conflict, Iraq offerred to withdraw from Kuwait if the UN addressed the issue of Israel occupying and bombing Lebanon.
The USA flatly refused to the consider the offer of ending the War through peaceful, diplomatic means before it really began, and vetoed the resolution. It wasn't reported in the media, and wa-hey, bombs away.
Which, once again, make the US and British governments war criminals by the definition of international law.
Saddam's not a fool. His country's still screwed from the last war and 10 years of crippling sanctions. Further war will screw it even more, and I'm sure he doesn't want that. There has to be a diplomatic way this could be resolved. I just get the feeling that we're not going to hear about it.
>
> Unless you have a better idea? No diplomatic solution I can think of
> will dethrone him.
Just to chuck a spanner in the works, during the first Gulf conflict, Iraq offerred to withdraw from Kuwait if the UN addressed the issue of Israel occupying and bombing Lebanon.
The USA flatly refused to the consider the offer of ending the War through peaceful, diplomatic means before it really began, and vetoed the resolution. It wasn't reported in the media, and wa-hey, bombs away.
Which, once again, make the US and British governments war criminals by the definition of international law.
Saddam's not a fool. His country's still screwed from the last war and 10 years of crippling sanctions. Further war will screw it even more, and I'm sure he doesn't want that. There has to be a diplomatic way this could be resolved. I just get the feeling that we're not going to hear about it.
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