The "Freeola Customer Forum" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
I want to re-ignite the debate about capital punishment. With th events of the last two weeks concerning those missing girls culminating in the arrest of two people, I advocate a return of capital punishment. I don't care how they do it, but these sort of people don't deserve to live - prison is too good for them.
What do you think? Please none of this humanitarian crap defending them though - humanitarianism wasn't high on the two in question when they committed the crime, was it?
What do you think? Please none of this humanitarian crap defending them though - humanitarianism wasn't high on the two in question when they committed the crime, was it?
Page:
Belldandy wrote:
> Her
> boyfriend is currently in a psychiatric facility, suggesting he's not
> all there - for want of a better phrase - fancy executing mentally
> disabled or compared people ?
So he's mentally disabled, does that make his actions excusable?
> Will it deter anyone else ?
I believe the death penalty to be a far bigger deterant than prison.
> At least those kind of mistakes can be reversed.....unlike a death
> penalty.
How do you reverse the loss of 30 years of your life?
> So he'd be better off dead ? You seem to have a rather blas'e attitude
> to just killing people off !
I am not biased towards killing, but I believe it to do far more for deterring criminal behaviour.
> How on earth do you intend to draw a line with your idea of a murder for > a murder ? If a
> woman kills a man whose been abusing her but wasn't at the time she
> killed him then do you want her dead ? How about our SAS ? It's widely
> known that this unit has indulged in killings in Northern Ireland
> which probably weren't justified.
THIS IS *NOT* A MORAL DISCUSSION, it is a discussion of the law and how it should be upheld. Our law states that the only way you can 'murder' someone legally is in self defence. Even then it consitutes manslaughter, and it is up to the courts to decide whether or not they had good cause (i.e. their life was in danger).
As for the SAS and the army, they are engaged in warfare and although civilians are killed (and yes maybe sometimes killed 'without good cause'), this matter would be resolved using different laws and procedures to ours in civvie street.
> >What needs to be improved, are the methods we use to
> convict people, *not* the way we treat them afterwards. Jamie
> bulgers
> killers probably now live in a nice big house at the other side of
> the
> world, courtesy of our "humane" justice system.
>
> So we should have eceuted Jamie Bulgers killers eh ? Which countries
> execute people for crimes they committed when under 16 ? Iran, Iraq,
> Nigeria and Saudi Arabia - we want to be associated with them don't we
> ?
Now this is a delicate issue. The question still arises, should children be tried as adults. I really think this is a separate topic, but seeing as it was me who unfortunately brought it up, I will try to address it.
The problem today is we are beginning to realise what sort of ages children are becoming 'sentient', that is able to tell right from wrong. Now, I can only speak for myself, but I think that by the time I was their age, I knew it was bad, terribly, terribly bad, to kill young kids. It is my opinion that they knew full well what they were doing, and if they are capable of such unspeakable brutality at that age, what about when they grow up? Now you have to ask yourself one question - Can they be rehabilitated? If you think the answer is definitely yes, I should like to ask you what makes you think that is possible. If the answer has even the slightest possibility of being no, then what the HELL are we doing giving them a new identity and releasing them. Some poor father may let his daughter marry one of these evil people in future, not having the slightest idea who they are, only to have a phone call years later to tell him she has been butchered. I'm sorry, maybe I have less heart than most, but these sort of people are evil in its most pure form, and should be put down like rabid dogs.
> Capital Punishment does not work, does not deter others and doesn't
> make anything better.
You shall not change my mind......
You put up a reasonable arguement belldandy. Let us agree to disagree.
> Her
> boyfriend is currently in a psychiatric facility, suggesting he's not
> all there - for want of a better phrase - fancy executing mentally
> disabled or compared people ?
So he's mentally disabled, does that make his actions excusable?
> Will it deter anyone else ?
I believe the death penalty to be a far bigger deterant than prison.
> At least those kind of mistakes can be reversed.....unlike a death
> penalty.
How do you reverse the loss of 30 years of your life?
> So he'd be better off dead ? You seem to have a rather blas'e attitude
> to just killing people off !
I am not biased towards killing, but I believe it to do far more for deterring criminal behaviour.
> How on earth do you intend to draw a line with your idea of a murder for > a murder ? If a
> woman kills a man whose been abusing her but wasn't at the time she
> killed him then do you want her dead ? How about our SAS ? It's widely
> known that this unit has indulged in killings in Northern Ireland
> which probably weren't justified.
THIS IS *NOT* A MORAL DISCUSSION, it is a discussion of the law and how it should be upheld. Our law states that the only way you can 'murder' someone legally is in self defence. Even then it consitutes manslaughter, and it is up to the courts to decide whether or not they had good cause (i.e. their life was in danger).
As for the SAS and the army, they are engaged in warfare and although civilians are killed (and yes maybe sometimes killed 'without good cause'), this matter would be resolved using different laws and procedures to ours in civvie street.
> >What needs to be improved, are the methods we use to
> convict people, *not* the way we treat them afterwards. Jamie
> bulgers
> killers probably now live in a nice big house at the other side of
> the
> world, courtesy of our "humane" justice system.
>
> So we should have eceuted Jamie Bulgers killers eh ? Which countries
> execute people for crimes they committed when under 16 ? Iran, Iraq,
> Nigeria and Saudi Arabia - we want to be associated with them don't we
> ?
Now this is a delicate issue. The question still arises, should children be tried as adults. I really think this is a separate topic, but seeing as it was me who unfortunately brought it up, I will try to address it.
The problem today is we are beginning to realise what sort of ages children are becoming 'sentient', that is able to tell right from wrong. Now, I can only speak for myself, but I think that by the time I was their age, I knew it was bad, terribly, terribly bad, to kill young kids. It is my opinion that they knew full well what they were doing, and if they are capable of such unspeakable brutality at that age, what about when they grow up? Now you have to ask yourself one question - Can they be rehabilitated? If you think the answer is definitely yes, I should like to ask you what makes you think that is possible. If the answer has even the slightest possibility of being no, then what the HELL are we doing giving them a new identity and releasing them. Some poor father may let his daughter marry one of these evil people in future, not having the slightest idea who they are, only to have a phone call years later to tell him she has been butchered. I'm sorry, maybe I have less heart than most, but these sort of people are evil in its most pure form, and should be put down like rabid dogs.
> Capital Punishment does not work, does not deter others and doesn't
> make anything better.
You shall not change my mind......
You put up a reasonable arguement belldandy. Let us agree to disagree.
Belldandy, for the first time ever I think, I am in complete agreement with you.
Not only is the death penalty barbaric, it doesn't work as a means of deterrent nor does it provide catharsis.
Not only is the death penalty barbaric, it doesn't work as a means of deterrent nor does it provide catharsis.
i'm not too sure on this subject. I mean if we can get a life sentance that actually means life then i'd much rather have that then having people being killed. We should do as the Americans do and give sentances of like 300 years out because even if they only serve half that's still 150 years and they'll have died anyway resulting in a penalty which is actually LIFE imprisonment. Also with this sentance the person will still be alive so if any new evidence pops up in like 20 or so years after the first verdict the person will still be around to be found innocent and let go.
Also we must make sure that our jails are actually punishment and not nice soft options like they are now. You read now prisoners have access to tv's, pool tables, videos, video games and books. Since when did jail change into another option of going to Butlins? Jail should mean punishment not watching the latest Bond movie. Get rid of all these things and just give prisoners the very basic needs to survive such as food, water, light and heat etc. I don't care what some court in Brussels says how we should run our jails as we're not in Belgium this is England we should decide how to run our countries and that includes our jails thank you very much.
I think if these points are met then it's a much better option then killing criminals even if some of them do actually deserve it.
Also we must make sure that our jails are actually punishment and not nice soft options like they are now. You read now prisoners have access to tv's, pool tables, videos, video games and books. Since when did jail change into another option of going to Butlins? Jail should mean punishment not watching the latest Bond movie. Get rid of all these things and just give prisoners the very basic needs to survive such as food, water, light and heat etc. I don't care what some court in Brussels says how we should run our jails as we're not in Belgium this is England we should decide how to run our countries and that includes our jails thank you very much.
I think if these points are met then it's a much better option then killing criminals even if some of them do actually deserve it.
People that commit crimes as hanus as murdering two little girls should be killed.
People like that have given up all human rights and deserve to die.
Like the old saying goes
"An eye for an eye"
People like that have given up all human rights and deserve to die.
Like the old saying goes
"An eye for an eye"
<- Pappa Lazarou -> wrote:
>
> I'm sorry, but its easy to take that stance when you are not directly
> involved in such things. In the case of the recent murder of holly
> and jessica, I think the parents would wish nothing but a painful
> death for those two people.
I thik you'll find the parents haven't actually expressed any views as of this moment, plus in this country we have this stupid thing that says you've got to be convicted in a court of law before you're definitely guilty.... Even before the police brought charges yesterday many many people were expressing the wish for these two to be dead. As of this moment Maxine Carr is only being accused of perverting the cause of justice....want to make that an executionable offence ? Her boyfriend is currently in a psychiatric facility, suggesting he's not all there - for want of a better phrase - fancy executing mentally disabled or compared people ?
So, say these two were executed, will it make you feel any better ? Will it bring those two children back ? Will it deter anyone else ? If you'd draw a measure of satisfaction from killing those two then that says a lot.
> In your arguement that you can't raise people from the dead, yes
> you're right, but you also said prison (for life) is a far worse fate
> than death. Many people have been wrongly imprisoned for life, only to
> be exhonerated in old age.
At least those kind of mistakes can be reversed.....unlike a death penalty.
> In the news fairly recently a man was
> imprisoned for 27 years for rape, and the woman came forward and
> confessed it was a lie. How would you comment on that? Do you not
> think that man went through a terrible, soul destroying period of time
> in prison?
So he'd be better off dead ? You seem to have a rather blas'e attitude to just killing people off !
>But the majority are guilty and that is what is important.
> Death may sound cruel, but how do you define what they did to those
> two girls?
They did something that resulted in their deaths. No one outside of the investigation knows what or how it happened. How on earth do you intend to draw a line with your idea of a murder for a murder ? If a woman kills a man whose been abusing her but wasn't at the time she killed him then do you want her dead ? How about our SAS ? It's widely known that this unit has indulged in killings in Northern Ireland which probably weren't justified. Earlier this year a young african boys body was found in the Thames in a condition suggesting it had been used in some sort of ritual. No one even knew this kid was missing. The police now have the killer - has anyone said she should be executed ? No. This whole debate is purely a reflex reaction to current events.
>What needs to be improved, are the methods we use to
> convict people, *not* the way we treat them afterwards. Jamie bulgers
> killers probably now live in a nice big house at the other side of the
> world, courtesy of our "humane" justice system.
So we should have eceuted Jamie Bulgers killers eh ? Which countries execute people for crimes they committed when under 16 ? Iran, Iraq, Nigeria and Saudi Arabia - we want to be associated with them don't we ? Our justice system is humane because our society is supposedly humane. Though when you see news pictures of the court house where Maxine Carr appeared this morning you have to wonder. Those people there did nothing, not one damn thing, to help those girls parents. They stood like a baying mob outside that court house and ofrced yet more police to be diverted from real criminals to policing members of the public after a fight. Say they had broekn through to Maxine Carr and got hold of her, killed her, dragged a body through the road. That'd be eerily close imagery to the Ranger mission in Mogadishu 1993 where American soldiers bodies were dragged through the streets.
Capital Punishment does not work, does not deter others and doesn't make anything better.
~~Belldandy~~
>
> I'm sorry, but its easy to take that stance when you are not directly
> involved in such things. In the case of the recent murder of holly
> and jessica, I think the parents would wish nothing but a painful
> death for those two people.
I thik you'll find the parents haven't actually expressed any views as of this moment, plus in this country we have this stupid thing that says you've got to be convicted in a court of law before you're definitely guilty.... Even before the police brought charges yesterday many many people were expressing the wish for these two to be dead. As of this moment Maxine Carr is only being accused of perverting the cause of justice....want to make that an executionable offence ? Her boyfriend is currently in a psychiatric facility, suggesting he's not all there - for want of a better phrase - fancy executing mentally disabled or compared people ?
So, say these two were executed, will it make you feel any better ? Will it bring those two children back ? Will it deter anyone else ? If you'd draw a measure of satisfaction from killing those two then that says a lot.
> In your arguement that you can't raise people from the dead, yes
> you're right, but you also said prison (for life) is a far worse fate
> than death. Many people have been wrongly imprisoned for life, only to
> be exhonerated in old age.
At least those kind of mistakes can be reversed.....unlike a death penalty.
> In the news fairly recently a man was
> imprisoned for 27 years for rape, and the woman came forward and
> confessed it was a lie. How would you comment on that? Do you not
> think that man went through a terrible, soul destroying period of time
> in prison?
So he'd be better off dead ? You seem to have a rather blas'e attitude to just killing people off !
>But the majority are guilty and that is what is important.
> Death may sound cruel, but how do you define what they did to those
> two girls?
They did something that resulted in their deaths. No one outside of the investigation knows what or how it happened. How on earth do you intend to draw a line with your idea of a murder for a murder ? If a woman kills a man whose been abusing her but wasn't at the time she killed him then do you want her dead ? How about our SAS ? It's widely known that this unit has indulged in killings in Northern Ireland which probably weren't justified. Earlier this year a young african boys body was found in the Thames in a condition suggesting it had been used in some sort of ritual. No one even knew this kid was missing. The police now have the killer - has anyone said she should be executed ? No. This whole debate is purely a reflex reaction to current events.
>What needs to be improved, are the methods we use to
> convict people, *not* the way we treat them afterwards. Jamie bulgers
> killers probably now live in a nice big house at the other side of the
> world, courtesy of our "humane" justice system.
So we should have eceuted Jamie Bulgers killers eh ? Which countries execute people for crimes they committed when under 16 ? Iran, Iraq, Nigeria and Saudi Arabia - we want to be associated with them don't we ? Our justice system is humane because our society is supposedly humane. Though when you see news pictures of the court house where Maxine Carr appeared this morning you have to wonder. Those people there did nothing, not one damn thing, to help those girls parents. They stood like a baying mob outside that court house and ofrced yet more police to be diverted from real criminals to policing members of the public after a fight. Say they had broekn through to Maxine Carr and got hold of her, killed her, dragged a body through the road. That'd be eerily close imagery to the Ranger mission in Mogadishu 1993 where American soldiers bodies were dragged through the streets.
Capital Punishment does not work, does not deter others and doesn't make anything better.
~~Belldandy~~
The death sentence doesn't exist (anymore) in this country. We're debating whether it should exist, I'm saying don't bring in a death sentence, bring in a REAL life sentence.
But life sentences don't exist in this country.
Most people know that there is a possiblity that they will be free if they commit any crime.
Most people know that there is a possiblity that they will be free if they commit any crime.
So, someone close to you (family member) is found guilty of murder. You know it's not true, but all the evidence points to them. They get executed. Years later new evidence comes to light that proves it wasn't them. I bet you'd be the first campaigning for compensation, not thinking, "oh, well the important thing is that the other 90% of people executed were guilty".
Life (and I MEAN life, not life as in 20 years) in prison is a fate worse than death. Knowing you'll never be free to do what you want. And it has the bonus that if after someone is convicted new evidence comes to light to show they were innocent you can bring them out of jail. Granted, nothings going to bring back the time that they were inside, but at least they can live the rest of their life rather than if they'd been executed.
Life (and I MEAN life, not life as in 20 years) in prison is a fate worse than death. Knowing you'll never be free to do what you want. And it has the bonus that if after someone is convicted new evidence comes to light to show they were innocent you can bring them out of jail. Granted, nothings going to bring back the time that they were inside, but at least they can live the rest of their life rather than if they'd been executed.
Belldandy wrote:
> Capital Punishment never has been, and never can be, acceptable. It
> bows down to the majority of the public that want vengeance for a
> crime, and not justice.
I'm sorry, but its easy to take that stance when you are not directly involved in such things. In the case of the recent murder of holly and jessica, I think the parents would wish nothing but a painful death for those two people.
In your arguement that you can't raise people from the dead, yes you're right, but you also said prison (for life) is a far worse fate than death. Many people have been wrongly imprisoned for life, only to be exhonerated in old age. In the news fairly recently a man was imprisoned for 27 years for rape, and the woman came forward and confessed it was a lie. How would you comment on that? Do you not think that man went through a terrible, soul destroying period of time in prison? There has to be harsh punishment. No Legal system is perfect (yet), and innocent people will continue to be wrongly punished. But the majority are guilty and that is what is important. Death may sound cruel, but how do you define what they did to those two girls? What needs to be improved, are the methods we use to convict people, *not* the way we treat them afterwards. Jamie bulgers killers probably now live in a nice big house at the other side of the world, courtesy of our "humane" justice system.
> Capital Punishment never has been, and never can be, acceptable. It
> bows down to the majority of the public that want vengeance for a
> crime, and not justice.
I'm sorry, but its easy to take that stance when you are not directly involved in such things. In the case of the recent murder of holly and jessica, I think the parents would wish nothing but a painful death for those two people.
In your arguement that you can't raise people from the dead, yes you're right, but you also said prison (for life) is a far worse fate than death. Many people have been wrongly imprisoned for life, only to be exhonerated in old age. In the news fairly recently a man was imprisoned for 27 years for rape, and the woman came forward and confessed it was a lie. How would you comment on that? Do you not think that man went through a terrible, soul destroying period of time in prison? There has to be harsh punishment. No Legal system is perfect (yet), and innocent people will continue to be wrongly punished. But the majority are guilty and that is what is important. Death may sound cruel, but how do you define what they did to those two girls? What needs to be improved, are the methods we use to convict people, *not* the way we treat them afterwards. Jamie bulgers killers probably now live in a nice big house at the other side of the world, courtesy of our "humane" justice system.
I agree that life in prison (and I mean LIFE not life as in 20 odd years, I mean until you die) is worse than death. The argument against this is that the taxpayers money is spent to feed, shelter, etc. a criminal. But I don't think prisons (at least prisons for serious offenders anyway such as murderers, etc.) should have luxeries like TVs or entertainment facilities (anything like pool tables or anything pretty much). Give them a library or something and that's about it.
Thing is, if life in prison is worse than death, even though you don't run the risk of killing anyone who didn't commit the crime, you run the risk of imprisoning them for life, a fate you said yourself is worse than death...
But I suppose it's impossible to stop miscarriages of justice...
Thing is, if life in prison is worse than death, even though you don't run the risk of killing anyone who didn't commit the crime, you run the risk of imprisoning them for life, a fate you said yourself is worse than death...
But I suppose it's impossible to stop miscarriages of justice...
Page: