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This is just my opinion on some stuff. Which side do you favor - scientific or religious route? Foreword: This, which I am about to type isn’t science-fiction nonsense. Much of what is written is based on scientifically proven fact, and the rest is my opinion. Using a combination of the two, a reasonably non-contradictory explanation can hopefully be created. Right.
In the beginning there was the big bang, the creation of OUR universe. There, at the same time, were also an infinite number of other big bangs elsewhere in the multiverse. The multiverse is a fluid medium in which our, and many other universes float. Our universe is likely to be donut-shaped, but as we have no scientific proof, and never will have, this can never be proved. The multiverse cannot be defined; it is a place where “god” exists. Here he/she/it created all the universes, possibly simultaneously. He DID create everything we know, but in a random manner. Each universe is similar to at least one other universe, but with one single tiny difference in the laws of physics. For every possible outcome that could arise, there is a universe for each possibility (hence parallel universe. But this is actually lies because if it was a parallel universe then everything would be the same and it’s not, there is one difference in each one). Our universe is almost infinitely large, and is expanding, at an almost infinite rate. (Again not 100% scientific fact but this is what is generally believed to be happening)
The universe is several billion years old, this IS scientific fact and flatly contradicts the Bible, which claims the earth is a mere 5000 years old, but the earth is also several billion years old. It could be ¼ the age of the universe or perhaps even less. But still, that is substantially more than 5000 years. If the bible is wrong on such a scale, such a massive fact then surely other, more minor facts must also be incorrect. The bible clearly has a lot of truth. And it also has many valid points, and thus should be followed. But, in my opinion, whether you follow it or not, has no effect on the “afterlife”, more on this later.
The earth was formed in space over millions or billions of years, due to the accumulation of dust and particles in space, formed by a destroyed star or the creation of the universe itself. The gravity of all the little bits pulled together to form a large planet. There was extreme heat here because of all the forces acting upon the planet, during its creation. Here it sat and boiled for a while, until it got smacked by a super-massive asteroid, and this caused bits of it to fly off. These bits went into orbit around the earth and formed the moon. Earth now is kind of cooling down, and sort of becoming habitable. Life will soon form, but there are two possible ways in which this could happen.
1. Bits of stuff, proteins etc congealed in a pool, by chance formed an organism and this organism then decided it was a plant. And thus life on earth arose due to its own volition.
2. There was already life elsewhere in the universe, which is highly likely due to the place’s age, 5 billion years+ is likely to form life (as stated in 1.), and a meteor or whatever struck this planet. Some bacteria or plant material was transported through space in/on the asteroid. It landed on our humble planet, escaped and started up here.
If either of these are true, which they could well be, does it not occur to you that life is just a big bunch of random proteins and stuff congealed together, by luck/chance, and evolution have culminated, on this planet at any rate, in humans. Look at really basic life: an amoeba. It clearly has no intelligence; it simply isn’t capable of it. Don’t say it does, because it simply cant think, it lives, breeds etc on genetic instinct built into it. It has no choice, it has no ethics, and it has no ‘spirit’. Eat or not eat. Divide or not divide. That’s about the limit of its choices. Then look at us: are we any different? NO. Our brains are just 2 lbs of gray mush that has been formed over millions of years of natural selection. The brain is really great. It’s quite smashing. It can do millions of things per second; it’s faster than ANY computer. It controls electrical signals generated in our brain, generally by external stimuli. Sight, smell etc. these electrical signals go to glands or whatever, send out hormones, and stuff.
Personality is just a bonus, a side effect of the brain. Look at dolphins, or sharks, or snakes, or mice. Not stupid animals, they have personalities, just like any one of us. But would you say they have a “spirit”? Do they have a god? In the literal sense, yes they do as god is (potentially) an omnipotent being who created the universes. But do they go to heaven when they die? Do the dolphins go to a massive sea in the sky with as many hoops, balls and fish as they want? To the mice go to cheese-land? No. How? Because there is no such place, there is no such thing as “spirits,” or “your soul”. There is the person inside oneself, but that is primarily defined at conception, then later, after birth, formed through external influences. It may sound heartless but it is, in my opinion, the truth.
So, what happens when we die? Where do we go, what happens to our consciousness? It simply stops. There is nothing there; you simply don’t exist (other then your dead body). Whatever thoughts, feelings or whatever you had on your dying day will be stored there still, in your deceased brain, until it degrades, the memory cells die and THEN, you are gone. So in a way you do exist after death, if only briefly. But of course you are dead, there is no heart action, thus no brain function, therefore it is the end.
If you disagree with any of my points, feel free to criticize.
Thanks for reading,
LF
In the beginning there was the big bang, the creation of OUR universe. There, at the same time, were also an infinite number of other big bangs elsewhere in the multiverse. The multiverse is a fluid medium in which our, and many other universes float. Our universe is likely to be donut-shaped, but as we have no scientific proof, and never will have, this can never be proved. The multiverse cannot be defined; it is a place where “god” exists. Here he/she/it created all the universes, possibly simultaneously. He DID create everything we know, but in a random manner. Each universe is similar to at least one other universe, but with one single tiny difference in the laws of physics. For every possible outcome that could arise, there is a universe for each possibility (hence parallel universe. But this is actually lies because if it was a parallel universe then everything would be the same and it’s not, there is one difference in each one). Our universe is almost infinitely large, and is expanding, at an almost infinite rate. (Again not 100% scientific fact but this is what is generally believed to be happening)
The universe is several billion years old, this IS scientific fact and flatly contradicts the Bible, which claims the earth is a mere 5000 years old, but the earth is also several billion years old. It could be ¼ the age of the universe or perhaps even less. But still, that is substantially more than 5000 years. If the bible is wrong on such a scale, such a massive fact then surely other, more minor facts must also be incorrect. The bible clearly has a lot of truth. And it also has many valid points, and thus should be followed. But, in my opinion, whether you follow it or not, has no effect on the “afterlife”, more on this later.
The earth was formed in space over millions or billions of years, due to the accumulation of dust and particles in space, formed by a destroyed star or the creation of the universe itself. The gravity of all the little bits pulled together to form a large planet. There was extreme heat here because of all the forces acting upon the planet, during its creation. Here it sat and boiled for a while, until it got smacked by a super-massive asteroid, and this caused bits of it to fly off. These bits went into orbit around the earth and formed the moon. Earth now is kind of cooling down, and sort of becoming habitable. Life will soon form, but there are two possible ways in which this could happen.
1. Bits of stuff, proteins etc congealed in a pool, by chance formed an organism and this organism then decided it was a plant. And thus life on earth arose due to its own volition.
2. There was already life elsewhere in the universe, which is highly likely due to the place’s age, 5 billion years+ is likely to form life (as stated in 1.), and a meteor or whatever struck this planet. Some bacteria or plant material was transported through space in/on the asteroid. It landed on our humble planet, escaped and started up here.
If either of these are true, which they could well be, does it not occur to you that life is just a big bunch of random proteins and stuff congealed together, by luck/chance, and evolution have culminated, on this planet at any rate, in humans. Look at really basic life: an amoeba. It clearly has no intelligence; it simply isn’t capable of it. Don’t say it does, because it simply cant think, it lives, breeds etc on genetic instinct built into it. It has no choice, it has no ethics, and it has no ‘spirit’. Eat or not eat. Divide or not divide. That’s about the limit of its choices. Then look at us: are we any different? NO. Our brains are just 2 lbs of gray mush that has been formed over millions of years of natural selection. The brain is really great. It’s quite smashing. It can do millions of things per second; it’s faster than ANY computer. It controls electrical signals generated in our brain, generally by external stimuli. Sight, smell etc. these electrical signals go to glands or whatever, send out hormones, and stuff.
Personality is just a bonus, a side effect of the brain. Look at dolphins, or sharks, or snakes, or mice. Not stupid animals, they have personalities, just like any one of us. But would you say they have a “spirit”? Do they have a god? In the literal sense, yes they do as god is (potentially) an omnipotent being who created the universes. But do they go to heaven when they die? Do the dolphins go to a massive sea in the sky with as many hoops, balls and fish as they want? To the mice go to cheese-land? No. How? Because there is no such place, there is no such thing as “spirits,” or “your soul”. There is the person inside oneself, but that is primarily defined at conception, then later, after birth, formed through external influences. It may sound heartless but it is, in my opinion, the truth.
So, what happens when we die? Where do we go, what happens to our consciousness? It simply stops. There is nothing there; you simply don’t exist (other then your dead body). Whatever thoughts, feelings or whatever you had on your dying day will be stored there still, in your deceased brain, until it degrades, the memory cells die and THEN, you are gone. So in a way you do exist after death, if only briefly. But of course you are dead, there is no heart action, thus no brain function, therefore it is the end.
If you disagree with any of my points, feel free to criticize.
Thanks for reading,
LF
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The Iron Monkey wrote:
> I respect your point of veiw, but science has one thing over religion
> - Proof. Science proves it's theorys to be correct, while religion
> just asks you to accept them just because a book (which was written
> thousands of years ago) tells you to.
Just thought I'd point out that so many scientific theories have no proof... particularly those surrounding our creation...
Now I don't believe in God, I spose he (or she... lets not be sexist about this :D) could be up there, but I don't think so... but science doesn't have proof for it's theories... when there is solid 100% proof they cease to be theories and become fact. But until then they remain theories... for this reason, none of the theories of science are for certain. They are just that- theories, based on speculation, however educated that speculation may be...
> I respect your point of veiw, but science has one thing over religion
> - Proof. Science proves it's theorys to be correct, while religion
> just asks you to accept them just because a book (which was written
> thousands of years ago) tells you to.
Just thought I'd point out that so many scientific theories have no proof... particularly those surrounding our creation...
Now I don't believe in God, I spose he (or she... lets not be sexist about this :D) could be up there, but I don't think so... but science doesn't have proof for it's theories... when there is solid 100% proof they cease to be theories and become fact. But until then they remain theories... for this reason, none of the theories of science are for certain. They are just that- theories, based on speculation, however educated that speculation may be...
Erm, sorry that I seem to of offended you Ant, I didn't mean to call everyone who believes in religion stupid, I respect your beliefs and all that, sorry.
However:
Ant wrote:
> Stop talking crap about a flawed theory, and explain your view.
> 'Evolution' is a theory than changes all the time, so I really don't
> think your answer is valid, at least until explained a little more.
> Where are all the half-fish half-apes?
>
Evolution is a gradual process, It generally went like this:
Oose --> Micro-organisms in the sea ---> Fish ---> amphibians ---> Reptiles ---> animals ----> mammals ----> primates ----> Apes ---> Man
There are many branches along this evolutionary trail and there are many more stages inbetween the ones I've stated, but it illustrates why there are no 'half-fish half-apes'
> Do you really take things that literally? And what do scientists know,
> in my view God created the Universe so it is his choice. I expect
> things were different before we all became too knowledgeable for our
> own good.
Too knowlegeable for our own good?
> God Created the universe? Who created God then?
>
>> Where did the Big Bang come from then? Or the thing before that?
My point exactly
>
>> Religion requires people to believe some of the most ludicrus lies
>> ever thought up, and yet people seem to fall for it.
>
> Are you calling me stupid? I'm afraid it is you that has fallen for
> all the stuff science comes up with. In my view, I could say that
> Evolution is ludicrous.
>
I respect your point of veiw, but science has one thing over religion - Proof. Science proves it's theorys to be correct, while religion just asks you to accept them just because a book (which was written thousands of years ago) tells you to.
However:
Ant wrote:
> Stop talking crap about a flawed theory, and explain your view.
> 'Evolution' is a theory than changes all the time, so I really don't
> think your answer is valid, at least until explained a little more.
> Where are all the half-fish half-apes?
>
Evolution is a gradual process, It generally went like this:
Oose --> Micro-organisms in the sea ---> Fish ---> amphibians ---> Reptiles ---> animals ----> mammals ----> primates ----> Apes ---> Man
There are many branches along this evolutionary trail and there are many more stages inbetween the ones I've stated, but it illustrates why there are no 'half-fish half-apes'
> Do you really take things that literally? And what do scientists know,
> in my view God created the Universe so it is his choice. I expect
> things were different before we all became too knowledgeable for our
> own good.
Too knowlegeable for our own good?
> God Created the universe? Who created God then?
>
>> Where did the Big Bang come from then? Or the thing before that?
My point exactly
>
>> Religion requires people to believe some of the most ludicrus lies
>> ever thought up, and yet people seem to fall for it.
>
> Are you calling me stupid? I'm afraid it is you that has fallen for
> all the stuff science comes up with. In my view, I could say that
> Evolution is ludicrous.
>
I respect your point of veiw, but science has one thing over religion - Proof. Science proves it's theorys to be correct, while religion just asks you to accept them just because a book (which was written thousands of years ago) tells you to.
"It's because people can't be bothered to work out their own theories, and just accept that this is right, because scientists say so."
That's where religion came from
Don't forget, people used to think the world was flat. To say anything against that theory was considered blasphomy. Now, do religious people TODAY think the world is flat? No, they don't, because that old theory has been proved wrong. Religion is simply the ideas of people thousands of years ago, and I personally feel it is sad that people today live their lives by something that some people sat down one day and wrote. Look at how we see the Greek/Roman/Egyptian gods as "myths" and not "truth". Not even the Greeks etc believe in their old religion, and that is how the world will be in a few more hundred years. The bible is bound to be shown as fake sooner or later
OK, I'll stop rambling now, I have a hatred of religion since I was forced to go to church until I was about 14
That's where religion came from
Don't forget, people used to think the world was flat. To say anything against that theory was considered blasphomy. Now, do religious people TODAY think the world is flat? No, they don't, because that old theory has been proved wrong. Religion is simply the ideas of people thousands of years ago, and I personally feel it is sad that people today live their lives by something that some people sat down one day and wrote. Look at how we see the Greek/Roman/Egyptian gods as "myths" and not "truth". Not even the Greeks etc believe in their old religion, and that is how the world will be in a few more hundred years. The bible is bound to be shown as fake sooner or later
OK, I'll stop rambling now, I have a hatred of religion since I was forced to go to church until I was about 14
The Iron Monkey wrote:
> Science has managed to disprove practically everything the bible (and
> most other holy books) preaches to be the truth:
>
> God created man? nope he evolved from monkeys.
Stop talking crap about a flawed theory, and explain your view. 'Evolution' is a theory than changes all the time, so I really don't think your answer is valid, at least until explained a little more. Where are all the half-fish half-apes?
>
> Adam and Eve? science has proven that it is not possible for a colony
> of organisms with less than 6 individuals to survive (if 2 organisms
> with DNA which is too similar breed, they usualy have mutant
> offspring).
>
> Noas Ark? See previous answer
Do you really take things that literally? And what do scientists know, in my view God created the Universe so it is his choice. I expect things were different before we all became too knowledgeable for our own good.
>
> Jesus was resurected? Water into wine? Paul daniels has done better
> than that for gods sake, you don't see anyone calling him the messiah
> (well except debbie mgee maybe)
This paragraph doesn't even deserve a response.
>
> God Created the universe? Who created God then?
Where did the Big Bang come from then? Or the thing before that?
>
> Heaven? As much as I'd love it to exist, it doesn't. It's something
> people like to believe in just because theyre scared of dieing. We're
> just organisms like everything else on the planet, allbeit slightly
> more evolved than the rest of them. What makes us so special that we
> are granted a ticket to the afterlife, while other organisms are not?
Because God created us in his image. We are meant to be the 'rulers' of this planet.
>
> Religion requires people to believe some of the most ludicrus lies
> ever thought up, and yet people seem to fall for it.
Are you calling me stupid? I'm afraid it is you that has fallen for all the stuff science comes up with. In my view, I could say that Evolution is ludicrous.
>
> So It looks like Science kicks religions a s s.
Oh, how intelligent. That just proves your ignorance.
There, I have just replied to basically all your points with a Christian viewpoint, disproving some of the things you have said. NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW HOW WE CAME TO BE! Can't you just accept that, rather than basically calling me stupid and saying my beliefs are 'ludicrous.'
Dammit...I try not to get into this sort of stuff now, and I'm probably going to provoke a load of other arguments now, but I just had to reply to this, because it insulted me.
For all the rest of you that believe in science, people like Goatboy, Grix, Sibs, Turbo etc. that's cool, because you can all respect my views, unlike some it seems...
*finally leaves, very hot and angry*
> Science has managed to disprove practically everything the bible (and
> most other holy books) preaches to be the truth:
>
> God created man? nope he evolved from monkeys.
Stop talking crap about a flawed theory, and explain your view. 'Evolution' is a theory than changes all the time, so I really don't think your answer is valid, at least until explained a little more. Where are all the half-fish half-apes?
>
> Adam and Eve? science has proven that it is not possible for a colony
> of organisms with less than 6 individuals to survive (if 2 organisms
> with DNA which is too similar breed, they usualy have mutant
> offspring).
>
> Noas Ark? See previous answer
Do you really take things that literally? And what do scientists know, in my view God created the Universe so it is his choice. I expect things were different before we all became too knowledgeable for our own good.
>
> Jesus was resurected? Water into wine? Paul daniels has done better
> than that for gods sake, you don't see anyone calling him the messiah
> (well except debbie mgee maybe)
This paragraph doesn't even deserve a response.
>
> God Created the universe? Who created God then?
Where did the Big Bang come from then? Or the thing before that?
>
> Heaven? As much as I'd love it to exist, it doesn't. It's something
> people like to believe in just because theyre scared of dieing. We're
> just organisms like everything else on the planet, allbeit slightly
> more evolved than the rest of them. What makes us so special that we
> are granted a ticket to the afterlife, while other organisms are not?
Because God created us in his image. We are meant to be the 'rulers' of this planet.
>
> Religion requires people to believe some of the most ludicrus lies
> ever thought up, and yet people seem to fall for it.
Are you calling me stupid? I'm afraid it is you that has fallen for all the stuff science comes up with. In my view, I could say that Evolution is ludicrous.
>
> So It looks like Science kicks religions a s s.
Oh, how intelligent. That just proves your ignorance.
There, I have just replied to basically all your points with a Christian viewpoint, disproving some of the things you have said. NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW HOW WE CAME TO BE! Can't you just accept that, rather than basically calling me stupid and saying my beliefs are 'ludicrous.'
Dammit...I try not to get into this sort of stuff now, and I'm probably going to provoke a load of other arguments now, but I just had to reply to this, because it insulted me.
For all the rest of you that believe in science, people like Goatboy, Grix, Sibs, Turbo etc. that's cool, because you can all respect my views, unlike some it seems...
*finally leaves, very hot and angry*
cookie monster wrote:
> Ant wrote:
> There is no way Evolution is a 'proven fact.'
>
> How can you say that? Evolution is accepted all over the world as
> being the influence which has brought not just us, but every organism
> to where it is today.
I still isn't PROVEN.
> Ant wrote:
> There is no way Evolution is a 'proven fact.'
>
> How can you say that? Evolution is accepted all over the world as
> being the influence which has brought not just us, but every organism
> to where it is today.
I still isn't PROVEN.
Stryke wrote:
> I believe in evolution, but you can't just say it's right. Because I
> think God doesn't exist, and there's millions of people like Ant who
> would disagree with me. Doesn't make them right but it doesn't make me
> right either.
Correct-a-mondo. There is no correct answer definately either way, and I suppose that we will probably never know really, unless there is some amazing breakthrough that can tell us, which I seriously doubt will EVER happen. I respect religious belief, even if I think they're a load of horsewánk. It's called netiquette, and we should all be so polite ;D
> I believe in evolution, but you can't just say it's right. Because I
> think God doesn't exist, and there's millions of people like Ant who
> would disagree with me. Doesn't make them right but it doesn't make me
> right either.
Correct-a-mondo. There is no correct answer definately either way, and I suppose that we will probably never know really, unless there is some amazing breakthrough that can tell us, which I seriously doubt will EVER happen. I respect religious belief, even if I think they're a load of horsewánk. It's called netiquette, and we should all be so polite ;D
Lawless Fever wrote:
>Our universe is likely to be donut-shaped.
mmmm, donuts.
But seriously:
I agree with pretty much everything you've said there Lawless Fever.
> 1. Bits of stuff, proteins etc congealed in a pool, by chance formed
> an organism and this organism then decided it was a plant. And thus
> life on earth arose due to its own volition.
Yup, I read that scientists have actually managed to create life (well, small amounts of DNA anyway) just by adding some basic elements which can be found in out atmosphere (Nitrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, etc.) to a contaioner, and passing electricity throough it. Which is basically what would happen in our atmosphere during thunder storms. Thus, it can be argued that the cumulative effect of these thunderstorms in our atmosphere over millions of years created life.
Science has managed to disprove practically everything the bible (and most other holy books) preaches to be the truth:
God created man? nope he evolved from monkeys.
Adam and Eve? science has proven that it is not possible for a colony of organisms with less than 6 individuals to survive (if 2 organisms with DNA which is too similar breed, they usualy have mutant offspring).
Noas Ark? See previous answer
Jesus was resurected? Water into wine? Paul daniels has done better than that for gods sake, you don't see anyone calling him the messiah (well except debbie mgee maybe)
God Created the universe? Who created God then?
Heaven? As much as I'd love it to exist, it doesn't. It's something people like to believe in just because theyre scared of dieing. We're just organisms like everything else on the planet, allbeit slightly more evolved than the rest of them. What makes us so special that we are granted a ticket to the afterlife, while other organisms are not? Dead is Dead is Dead.
Religion requires people to believe some of the most ludicrus lies ever thought up, and yet people seem to fall for it. However, as science has disproved more and more 'truths' from the bible (and other holy books) younger people seem to be less willing to buy in to it. Hence, Christianity in britain is dying out and churches are closing down. Scotland has actually been declared a pagan country, due to the fact that less than half the population believe in religion.
So It looks like Science kicks religions a s s, which may be a shame in the long run because all it really does is tell you not to be a naughty boy (and honour thy neighbour, and all that).
>Our universe is likely to be donut-shaped.
mmmm, donuts.
But seriously:
I agree with pretty much everything you've said there Lawless Fever.
> 1. Bits of stuff, proteins etc congealed in a pool, by chance formed
> an organism and this organism then decided it was a plant. And thus
> life on earth arose due to its own volition.
Yup, I read that scientists have actually managed to create life (well, small amounts of DNA anyway) just by adding some basic elements which can be found in out atmosphere (Nitrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, etc.) to a contaioner, and passing electricity throough it. Which is basically what would happen in our atmosphere during thunder storms. Thus, it can be argued that the cumulative effect of these thunderstorms in our atmosphere over millions of years created life.
Science has managed to disprove practically everything the bible (and most other holy books) preaches to be the truth:
God created man? nope he evolved from monkeys.
Adam and Eve? science has proven that it is not possible for a colony of organisms with less than 6 individuals to survive (if 2 organisms with DNA which is too similar breed, they usualy have mutant offspring).
Noas Ark? See previous answer
Jesus was resurected? Water into wine? Paul daniels has done better than that for gods sake, you don't see anyone calling him the messiah (well except debbie mgee maybe)
God Created the universe? Who created God then?
Heaven? As much as I'd love it to exist, it doesn't. It's something people like to believe in just because theyre scared of dieing. We're just organisms like everything else on the planet, allbeit slightly more evolved than the rest of them. What makes us so special that we are granted a ticket to the afterlife, while other organisms are not? Dead is Dead is Dead.
Religion requires people to believe some of the most ludicrus lies ever thought up, and yet people seem to fall for it. However, as science has disproved more and more 'truths' from the bible (and other holy books) younger people seem to be less willing to buy in to it. Hence, Christianity in britain is dying out and churches are closing down. Scotland has actually been declared a pagan country, due to the fact that less than half the population believe in religion.
So It looks like Science kicks religions a s s, which may be a shame in the long run because all it really does is tell you not to be a naughty boy (and honour thy neighbour, and all that).
Sibs wrote:
> That was you? I would have never guessed... ;-)
All hail Ant!
> That was you? I would have never guessed... ;-)
All hail Ant!
That was you? I would have never guessed... ;-)
Bah, I forgot to change my name from the earlier antics I took part in on FOG Chat...
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