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This is just my opinion on some stuff. Which side do you favor - scientific or religious route? Foreword: This, which I am about to type isn’t science-fiction nonsense. Much of what is written is based on scientifically proven fact, and the rest is my opinion. Using a combination of the two, a reasonably non-contradictory explanation can hopefully be created. Right.
In the beginning there was the big bang, the creation of OUR universe. There, at the same time, were also an infinite number of other big bangs elsewhere in the multiverse. The multiverse is a fluid medium in which our, and many other universes float. Our universe is likely to be donut-shaped, but as we have no scientific proof, and never will have, this can never be proved. The multiverse cannot be defined; it is a place where “god” exists. Here he/she/it created all the universes, possibly simultaneously. He DID create everything we know, but in a random manner. Each universe is similar to at least one other universe, but with one single tiny difference in the laws of physics. For every possible outcome that could arise, there is a universe for each possibility (hence parallel universe. But this is actually lies because if it was a parallel universe then everything would be the same and it’s not, there is one difference in each one). Our universe is almost infinitely large, and is expanding, at an almost infinite rate. (Again not 100% scientific fact but this is what is generally believed to be happening)
The universe is several billion years old, this IS scientific fact and flatly contradicts the Bible, which claims the earth is a mere 5000 years old, but the earth is also several billion years old. It could be ¼ the age of the universe or perhaps even less. But still, that is substantially more than 5000 years. If the bible is wrong on such a scale, such a massive fact then surely other, more minor facts must also be incorrect. The bible clearly has a lot of truth. And it also has many valid points, and thus should be followed. But, in my opinion, whether you follow it or not, has no effect on the “afterlife”, more on this later.
The earth was formed in space over millions or billions of years, due to the accumulation of dust and particles in space, formed by a destroyed star or the creation of the universe itself. The gravity of all the little bits pulled together to form a large planet. There was extreme heat here because of all the forces acting upon the planet, during its creation. Here it sat and boiled for a while, until it got smacked by a super-massive asteroid, and this caused bits of it to fly off. These bits went into orbit around the earth and formed the moon. Earth now is kind of cooling down, and sort of becoming habitable. Life will soon form, but there are two possible ways in which this could happen.
1. Bits of stuff, proteins etc congealed in a pool, by chance formed an organism and this organism then decided it was a plant. And thus life on earth arose due to its own volition.
2. There was already life elsewhere in the universe, which is highly likely due to the place’s age, 5 billion years+ is likely to form life (as stated in 1.), and a meteor or whatever struck this planet. Some bacteria or plant material was transported through space in/on the asteroid. It landed on our humble planet, escaped and started up here.
If either of these are true, which they could well be, does it not occur to you that life is just a big bunch of random proteins and stuff congealed together, by luck/chance, and evolution have culminated, on this planet at any rate, in humans. Look at really basic life: an amoeba. It clearly has no intelligence; it simply isn’t capable of it. Don’t say it does, because it simply cant think, it lives, breeds etc on genetic instinct built into it. It has no choice, it has no ethics, and it has no ‘spirit’. Eat or not eat. Divide or not divide. That’s about the limit of its choices. Then look at us: are we any different? NO. Our brains are just 2 lbs of gray mush that has been formed over millions of years of natural selection. The brain is really great. It’s quite smashing. It can do millions of things per second; it’s faster than ANY computer. It controls electrical signals generated in our brain, generally by external stimuli. Sight, smell etc. these electrical signals go to glands or whatever, send out hormones, and stuff.
Personality is just a bonus, a side effect of the brain. Look at dolphins, or sharks, or snakes, or mice. Not stupid animals, they have personalities, just like any one of us. But would you say they have a “spirit”? Do they have a god? In the literal sense, yes they do as god is (potentially) an omnipotent being who created the universes. But do they go to heaven when they die? Do the dolphins go to a massive sea in the sky with as many hoops, balls and fish as they want? To the mice go to cheese-land? No. How? Because there is no such place, there is no such thing as “spirits,” or “your soul”. There is the person inside oneself, but that is primarily defined at conception, then later, after birth, formed through external influences. It may sound heartless but it is, in my opinion, the truth.
So, what happens when we die? Where do we go, what happens to our consciousness? It simply stops. There is nothing there; you simply don’t exist (other then your dead body). Whatever thoughts, feelings or whatever you had on your dying day will be stored there still, in your deceased brain, until it degrades, the memory cells die and THEN, you are gone. So in a way you do exist after death, if only briefly. But of course you are dead, there is no heart action, thus no brain function, therefore it is the end.
If you disagree with any of my points, feel free to criticize.
Thanks for reading,
LF
In the beginning there was the big bang, the creation of OUR universe. There, at the same time, were also an infinite number of other big bangs elsewhere in the multiverse. The multiverse is a fluid medium in which our, and many other universes float. Our universe is likely to be donut-shaped, but as we have no scientific proof, and never will have, this can never be proved. The multiverse cannot be defined; it is a place where “god” exists. Here he/she/it created all the universes, possibly simultaneously. He DID create everything we know, but in a random manner. Each universe is similar to at least one other universe, but with one single tiny difference in the laws of physics. For every possible outcome that could arise, there is a universe for each possibility (hence parallel universe. But this is actually lies because if it was a parallel universe then everything would be the same and it’s not, there is one difference in each one). Our universe is almost infinitely large, and is expanding, at an almost infinite rate. (Again not 100% scientific fact but this is what is generally believed to be happening)
The universe is several billion years old, this IS scientific fact and flatly contradicts the Bible, which claims the earth is a mere 5000 years old, but the earth is also several billion years old. It could be ¼ the age of the universe or perhaps even less. But still, that is substantially more than 5000 years. If the bible is wrong on such a scale, such a massive fact then surely other, more minor facts must also be incorrect. The bible clearly has a lot of truth. And it also has many valid points, and thus should be followed. But, in my opinion, whether you follow it or not, has no effect on the “afterlife”, more on this later.
The earth was formed in space over millions or billions of years, due to the accumulation of dust and particles in space, formed by a destroyed star or the creation of the universe itself. The gravity of all the little bits pulled together to form a large planet. There was extreme heat here because of all the forces acting upon the planet, during its creation. Here it sat and boiled for a while, until it got smacked by a super-massive asteroid, and this caused bits of it to fly off. These bits went into orbit around the earth and formed the moon. Earth now is kind of cooling down, and sort of becoming habitable. Life will soon form, but there are two possible ways in which this could happen.
1. Bits of stuff, proteins etc congealed in a pool, by chance formed an organism and this organism then decided it was a plant. And thus life on earth arose due to its own volition.
2. There was already life elsewhere in the universe, which is highly likely due to the place’s age, 5 billion years+ is likely to form life (as stated in 1.), and a meteor or whatever struck this planet. Some bacteria or plant material was transported through space in/on the asteroid. It landed on our humble planet, escaped and started up here.
If either of these are true, which they could well be, does it not occur to you that life is just a big bunch of random proteins and stuff congealed together, by luck/chance, and evolution have culminated, on this planet at any rate, in humans. Look at really basic life: an amoeba. It clearly has no intelligence; it simply isn’t capable of it. Don’t say it does, because it simply cant think, it lives, breeds etc on genetic instinct built into it. It has no choice, it has no ethics, and it has no ‘spirit’. Eat or not eat. Divide or not divide. That’s about the limit of its choices. Then look at us: are we any different? NO. Our brains are just 2 lbs of gray mush that has been formed over millions of years of natural selection. The brain is really great. It’s quite smashing. It can do millions of things per second; it’s faster than ANY computer. It controls electrical signals generated in our brain, generally by external stimuli. Sight, smell etc. these electrical signals go to glands or whatever, send out hormones, and stuff.
Personality is just a bonus, a side effect of the brain. Look at dolphins, or sharks, or snakes, or mice. Not stupid animals, they have personalities, just like any one of us. But would you say they have a “spirit”? Do they have a god? In the literal sense, yes they do as god is (potentially) an omnipotent being who created the universes. But do they go to heaven when they die? Do the dolphins go to a massive sea in the sky with as many hoops, balls and fish as they want? To the mice go to cheese-land? No. How? Because there is no such place, there is no such thing as “spirits,” or “your soul”. There is the person inside oneself, but that is primarily defined at conception, then later, after birth, formed through external influences. It may sound heartless but it is, in my opinion, the truth.
So, what happens when we die? Where do we go, what happens to our consciousness? It simply stops. There is nothing there; you simply don’t exist (other then your dead body). Whatever thoughts, feelings or whatever you had on your dying day will be stored there still, in your deceased brain, until it degrades, the memory cells die and THEN, you are gone. So in a way you do exist after death, if only briefly. But of course you are dead, there is no heart action, thus no brain function, therefore it is the end.
If you disagree with any of my points, feel free to criticize.
Thanks for reading,
LF
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Sibs wrote:
> but in assembleys he always seems to talk
> of how we should live our lives for God, live our lives to his will,
> as if we have no free will or something.
Is this school in a commune?
> but in assembleys he always seems to talk
> of how we should live our lives for God, live our lives to his will,
> as if we have no free will or something.
Is this school in a commune?
Ant wrote:
> This topic has helped me reach the million word count too, YAY!
----------
I think this entire thread was just a ploy so Ant could get his word count up!
> This topic has helped me reach the million word count too, YAY!
----------
I think this entire thread was just a ploy so Ant could get his word count up!
I don't really care whether or not there is a God or whatever... I rarely think about it. The thing that really annoys me is our new (well, newish, he's been here about a year I'd guess by now...) priest/ reverant person at school. I don't have RE anymore, and haven't for about two years, but in assembleys he always seems to talk of how we should live our lives for God, live our lives to his will, as if we have no free will or something.
I really don't care about what he believes, it's his life after all, but if I have to go to hell for eternity to live my life the way I see fit rather than the way I am told to then so be it.
Anyway, enough of my ranting... :D
I really don't care about what he believes, it's his life after all, but if I have to go to hell for eternity to live my life the way I see fit rather than the way I am told to then so be it.
Anyway, enough of my ranting... :D
I feel it very difficult to have view either way since most people on this forum are teens/young adults. I really don't have a view, or a religion. I was christened, but it doesn't make me religious.
I want to believe in God etc, but it's hard to with so much science around.
Hmm.
I want to believe in God etc, but it's hard to with so much science around.
Hmm.
No worries Iron Monkey, I was rather hyper last night. :D
Also, my Christian youth leader told me to stick up for my faith, so that's what I've decided to do.
It's cool to see that here we can respect each-other's views, where as in the 'outside world' I've heard people talking about how happy they are that Christianity is not so 'popular' now. They're happy that a religion that teaches us to live good lives is 'closing down'? Bah.
Too many inverted commas. :D
This topic has helped me reach the million word count too, YAY!
Also, my Christian youth leader told me to stick up for my faith, so that's what I've decided to do.
It's cool to see that here we can respect each-other's views, where as in the 'outside world' I've heard people talking about how happy they are that Christianity is not so 'popular' now. They're happy that a religion that teaches us to live good lives is 'closing down'? Bah.
Too many inverted commas. :D
This topic has helped me reach the million word count too, YAY!
Aww, I thought this was going to be a thread about who would win in a fight between science and religion. I was getting all geared up to go on about how science could attack with it's scalpels and hypodermics, but religion could throw big heavy books at science and hit it with sceptres.
Never mind.
Now, what really made me laugh out loud was when I was approached by some evalengelistic type on the street, who tried to convince me to go to his church. I firmly believe that everyone can believe what they want to believe, but it narcs me off no end when someone tries to force their views on others. After he'd been going on about science being wrong, and the world only being 8000 years old or something, I said to him:
"How do you explain the fossil record then?"
(which is noted in a post down there somewhere)
He replied: "Ah, God put that there when he made the world to test us"
I literally doubled up laughing. What kind of a messed up idea of God plays mind tricks like that on you?
Anyway, I think he got the message that I was a lost cause as the tears of merriement rolled down my cheeks. Strangely, he didn't see the funny side.
So I'm on science's side, but that's only 'cos I can't get my head around religion.
Never mind.
Now, what really made me laugh out loud was when I was approached by some evalengelistic type on the street, who tried to convince me to go to his church. I firmly believe that everyone can believe what they want to believe, but it narcs me off no end when someone tries to force their views on others. After he'd been going on about science being wrong, and the world only being 8000 years old or something, I said to him:
"How do you explain the fossil record then?"
(which is noted in a post down there somewhere)
He replied: "Ah, God put that there when he made the world to test us"
I literally doubled up laughing. What kind of a messed up idea of God plays mind tricks like that on you?
Anyway, I think he got the message that I was a lost cause as the tears of merriement rolled down my cheeks. Strangely, he didn't see the funny side.
So I'm on science's side, but that's only 'cos I can't get my head around religion.
Personally i think the bible is a story book which was used to control people in times when there was not a strong system of law. Take for example, thou shall not kill. It was an early attempt at introducing rules, with the inclusion of god and the devil thrown in to add some fear, and make the people do what they were told.
In ancient Egypt they used to worship cats, cats for gods sake. Cats chase string and play with bells, they dont kill you with a lightning bolt if you dont pay them any attention. These days we think of this as being stupid, yet we still entertain the notion that a god is responsible for our creation. Did god create the dinosaurs? I dont think so, but he did create Adam and Eve, who magically populated the earth, if this was the case we would be hillbillies playing duelling banjos, not a race which has been to the moon.
The story of the earths creation is more akin to a speilberg film than a viable truth, to create our earth he would have to manipulate individual atoms, not even a god has such outstanding vision. People are worshipping the Turin shroud, when scientists asked if they could carbon date it they were refused. Eventually the think was dated and was found to be medievil, no wonder the priests were reluctant to give it over, its a fake!
In my opinion the belief that one sentient being created everything is ignorant, the fact that we have come to exist is indeed a small miracle, but to say some god is responsible for it is degrading. We have made our own lives, our own discoveries, our own destinies.
In ancient Egypt they used to worship cats, cats for gods sake. Cats chase string and play with bells, they dont kill you with a lightning bolt if you dont pay them any attention. These days we think of this as being stupid, yet we still entertain the notion that a god is responsible for our creation. Did god create the dinosaurs? I dont think so, but he did create Adam and Eve, who magically populated the earth, if this was the case we would be hillbillies playing duelling banjos, not a race which has been to the moon.
The story of the earths creation is more akin to a speilberg film than a viable truth, to create our earth he would have to manipulate individual atoms, not even a god has such outstanding vision. People are worshipping the Turin shroud, when scientists asked if they could carbon date it they were refused. Eventually the think was dated and was found to be medievil, no wonder the priests were reluctant to give it over, its a fake!
In my opinion the belief that one sentient being created everything is ignorant, the fact that we have come to exist is indeed a small miracle, but to say some god is responsible for it is degrading. We have made our own lives, our own discoveries, our own destinies.
The Iron Monkey wrote:
> hmmm, good point but I'd still say that scientific theorys suported by
> some facts are more viable than religious theorys which are suported
> by no facts at all.
>
> The theory of evolution is as much theory as is the theory of gravity,
> or the theory of relativity.
Yeah, but even if some facts back up the theories doesn't mean they are true...
take a maths example shall we... (a lot of scientific theories are based on numbers, equations and stuff...)
say 'F' is a function... it could be anything add or subtract a number, multiply or divide by a number, square, square root, etc. etc. (I think you get the idea...)
now say: 2F=4
F could be almost anything... it could be +2, to the power 2, times 2, divided by a half... etc.
Only one of those would be right, but all of them work. Just because a theory works in one situation, doesn't mean it will work in all. Unless you have 100% evidence it is still an assumption...
> hmmm, good point but I'd still say that scientific theorys suported by
> some facts are more viable than religious theorys which are suported
> by no facts at all.
>
> The theory of evolution is as much theory as is the theory of gravity,
> or the theory of relativity.
Yeah, but even if some facts back up the theories doesn't mean they are true...
take a maths example shall we... (a lot of scientific theories are based on numbers, equations and stuff...)
say 'F' is a function... it could be anything add or subtract a number, multiply or divide by a number, square, square root, etc. etc. (I think you get the idea...)
now say: 2F=4
F could be almost anything... it could be +2, to the power 2, times 2, divided by a half... etc.
Only one of those would be right, but all of them work. Just because a theory works in one situation, doesn't mean it will work in all. Unless you have 100% evidence it is still an assumption...
No, science does not prove. Science guesses and assumes itself correct until experimental data proves otherwise. It has done throughout history, and fundamentally cannot work any other way.
Maths on the other hand, proves. There's a big difference in the approach to each.
I personally am a believer in science over religion, but you have to remember that your argument is no bettetr than theirs. You can't prove them wrong unless you make the ASSUMPTION that science is correct, and neither can they disprove you unless they assume they are correct.
Seeing as proof can't be based on assumptions, you're all wasting your time. Neither of you can have a superior argument at all. It is purely opinionated, and nothing else.
Maths on the other hand, proves. There's a big difference in the approach to each.
I personally am a believer in science over religion, but you have to remember that your argument is no bettetr than theirs. You can't prove them wrong unless you make the ASSUMPTION that science is correct, and neither can they disprove you unless they assume they are correct.
Seeing as proof can't be based on assumptions, you're all wasting your time. Neither of you can have a superior argument at all. It is purely opinionated, and nothing else.
Sibs wrote:
> Just thought I'd point out that so many scientific theories have no
> proof... particularly those surrounding our creation...
>
> Now I don't believe in God, I spose he (or she... lets not be sexist
> about this :D) could be up there, but I don't think so... but science
> doesn't have proof for it's theories... when there is solid 100% proof
> they cease to be theories and become fact. But until then they remain
> theories... for this reason, none of the theories of science are for
> certain. They are just that- theories, based on speculation, however
> educated that speculation may be...
hmmm, good point but I'd still say that scientific theorys suported by some facts are more viable than religious theorys which are suported by no facts at all.
The theory of evolution is as much theory as is the theory of gravity, or the theory of relativity.
> Just thought I'd point out that so many scientific theories have no
> proof... particularly those surrounding our creation...
>
> Now I don't believe in God, I spose he (or she... lets not be sexist
> about this :D) could be up there, but I don't think so... but science
> doesn't have proof for it's theories... when there is solid 100% proof
> they cease to be theories and become fact. But until then they remain
> theories... for this reason, none of the theories of science are for
> certain. They are just that- theories, based on speculation, however
> educated that speculation may be...
hmmm, good point but I'd still say that scientific theorys suported by some facts are more viable than religious theorys which are suported by no facts at all.
The theory of evolution is as much theory as is the theory of gravity, or the theory of relativity.
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