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"Patriotism (sp?)"

In my view patriotism is being proud of the country you live in.

Am I proud of being English? In a word, not really. The only thing that's happened in my life time that made be proud to be English was when we beat Germany 5-1 in the football last year.

That's it.

Nothing else in my life, since April 21st 1981, has made me proud to be English.

Lot's of things have made me ashamed to be English. Mainly when English people go abroad and cause trouble, slurring our reputation.

I should be proud to be English. Our country has a great history.

But that's it. History. It's past, not now. Not any more. For how long can we rely on things years past to be proud of? For how long can we say "Yeah, but we had the Empire." Had. Not any more.

What are we good at on a global level? Music? Sport? Athletics? Films? Books? Is there any apsect of life where we are acknowledged as being the best?

Perhaps one. The ceremony for the Queen Mum. We're good at pagentry (if that's the right word for it), we're good at pomp and ceremony.

Why is this? Why are we crap at most sports, and face it, we are.

Ok, we're getting better at football, and we're ok-ish at rugby. But that's it. In the US athletes have sponsorship. They don't have to work, they can spend time training.

Over here? Redgrave and Pinsent had to work full time while training for the olympics the other year. This is wrong. Why were they not given sponsorship to help them achieve their best?

Why do we not have academies and things for young people who have an obvious talent, to help them get the most out of that talent?

Not just in sport, but in other things. Music, films, books, art... all the creative things.

I keep mentioning sport but it happens in all aspects of life. Even in politics, we're seen as being America's lapdog.

We do what Europe tells us to do, even on THE most ridiculous things.

Why? We're our own country. We should do what we want to do. Why listen to people in Brussels, who we haven't voted in, to tell us what to do? That's not democracy. Being told what to do by unelected people is not democracy at all. It's a farce.

Result:

I'm am NOT proud to be English at all. Being English sucks.

I want to see our national teams do well, I want to see us do our own thing.

Yes, being in Europe would be good for some things. And we should embrace those things, but we should ignore the crap that seems to come with it.

What's the saying? When in Rome do as the Romans? How about this one: "When in England do as the English"?

The other year Birmingham City Council decided to re-name Christmas to "Winter Festival" or some crap name like that. Why?

To accomodate racial minorities in the city who don't celebrate christmas. They don't celebrate christmas, that's fine with me. But we bloody well do. Why should we change to accomodate them?

I'm not racist at all. But they CHOSE to come here, we didn't FORCE them to. The celebrate their festivals, we celebrate ours. What's the problem?

Political Correctness gone mad, that's the problem.

Anyway, I've written gibberish long enough. Congratulations if you got to the end without skipping the middle out...

I'm not.
Just for the sake of it.

Damn dirty patriotism.

I'm Welsh Viking. Where the hell is my flag?

WòókieeMøn§†€® wrote:
> Seinfeld_Enthusiast wrote:
> BTW, try naming a single famous
> Belgian.


Hmm... how about Thornton, the guy who makes the chocolates? ;-)

Lol :-)


Just like to add - reading through all the replies so far - we are all in agreement - wow !

Seinfeld_Enthusiast wrote:
> BTW, try naming a single famous Belgian.


Hmm... how about Thornton, the guy who makes the chocolates? ;-)

Ben Hodgetts wrote:
> Everything like that we can't say anything about otherwise
> we'd be branded racist. The minorities can shout about anything they like about
> our customs or anything but we can't even think about saying anything back. This
> is what political correctness is about. Same goes for sexism in my opinion now
> the most sexist people are women. However i can't say that otherwise i'm a
> chauvanist pig, but what's the differnece between a male chauvanist who makes
> jokes about women or a feminist who every chance she gets makes a degrading
> comment about men.


All very true.

If you believe the various stories the press and various 'action groups' give, then you can only come to one conclusion:

If you are a young, white, English male, you are without doubt the lowest of the low. You hate everyone who isn't another young, white, English male, and look to kick their head in at every available opportunity. You are everything that is wrong in the world personified.

Now I don't know about you, but I'm a young(ish), white, English male, and I certainly don't think like that. The dangerous thing is that, if you treat people a certain way for so long, then they may become that way anyway.

One-way equality, as I call it, can only serve to *cause* tension and hatred where originally there was none, and sooner or later the whole situation will explode.

I've already said elsewhere that I dislike the royals - but if it's okay for the Queen to fly the Union Flag and the Cross of St. George, then it's fine for me to do the same, and I will wave it and wear it whenever and wherever the hell I like.

My flag waving has nothing other than patriotism behind it, and if anyone considers it a racist act, then screw them. THEY are the ones linking the flag to racism, not me.

Seinfeld_Enthusiast wrote:
> we seem to be shat upon by Brussels, but valued by Americans. Not just as
> 'poodles', but I for one am proud that the US sees Britain as the gateway to
> Europe, is its first ally and a true friend.

So I'm not the only one on this forum who thinks America isn't all that bad ? Wow......

Going back to the topic, I think Ben's right. Political correctness is killing us in this country - metaphorically anyway. The media, politicians, even the public, have to be so careful what they say so as not to offend one of the myriad of minority or special interest groups that nothing is getting done. His comments on sexism are bang on. Where I work the only males are me and the manager and the other 12 are all women, and the jokes come all day. thy're not serious and I don't really care but neither me or this other guy feel the need to joke about them. In the media you have programs like Sex And The City. Can you imagine the outcry if they're was a similar male dominated program which had 24 episodes of guys dating tons of woemn and saying what they'd been up to - the feminist brigade would about fire bomb the production company.......

And whats even worse is that anyone who even tries to suggest this political correctness is wrong is themselves then called sexist, racist or whatever.

Ben Hodgetts wrote:
> going back .....living in a camper van*

Good rant there Ben, and nothing that I disagree with - trouble is so much rubbish is done in the name of political correctness. If Tony Blair wants to put the Great back into Britain then he should change policies from Politcal correctness to British correctness (whatever that would mean). After all that is the country we live in.

I'm glad they got rid of hereditory peers as well.

Just because someones grandad was in the House of Lords doesn't mean that subsequent generations should be as well.

Ideally, I'd like to see a second chamber filled with elected people. Not sure how often they'd be changed or how it would work or whatever, but it would be nice to see.

I do agree with you on this YH - One of the few good things that Labour have done is to change the way that the House of Lords is made up.

At least you can no longer go and buy a title and be automatically entitled to sit in the house and as all of the old doderers peg it they will be replaced with peers who have been elected and have therefore had experience of the political system.

Good post Seinfeld, but I can't agree with this bit:

"even our much-envied political system"

We have a rubbish political system. The House of Commons voted to ban fox hunting, I believe. Or at least to have it licensed.

This then went to the House of Lords, who overthrew it. Now, the House of Lords are NOT elected by us. So how come they get to say what we can and can't do?

They're not representing me. They're not representing my opinion. It is NOT a democracy.

I have nothing against a second chamber, I think it's a good idea - issues have a second chance, as it were. However, when this second House is populated by UNelected people. Well, democracy is thrown out of the window.

Oh, and fox hunting isn't the first time that the House of Lords has denied something that the House of Commons accepted either...

Good thread BTW, but I do feel we're being overly-critical of England, and indeed the US. But I'm going to try to deal with things thematically, so here goes nothing:

Flags do seem to inculcate inherent patriotism, leading to nationalism, leading to racism, leading to wherever else. But then again, who do you normally see with the St. George flag? It's normally fat white English footy hooligans, or the Milwall supporters club. You don't see poor, disabled, black though English-born, women, flying the flag. But there's nothing actually wrong with the English flags.

Immigration is a hottish topic, but I cannot see why people can't just be proud of where they're from, and where they're at, at the same time. I'm proud to have been born in London, not that I had anything to do with it, but proud of Manchester, which is where I spent my childhood. I know it's not immigration but my family's itself all immigrants, me being 3rd gen English born. As for Christmas, I don't celebrate it on a religious level - not that many seem to- but take it for what it is and don't in the least bit feel insulted or prejudiced when wished a Merry Christmas. Why do people find it so hard to stand other people's customs?

But to go back to being proud of England, I think we do have something to be proud about. On a socio-political level, we seem to be shat upon by Brussels, but valued by Americans. Not just as 'poodles', but I for one am proud that the US sees Britain as the gateway to Europe, is its first ally and a true friend. Seriously. On a cultural level, I spent the first week of the easter break in London with an American friend from uni and her family. They, like many Americans, hold London in very high esteem, seeing it as the most important city in Europe and in many ways similar to New York. Now I now most of us aren't Londoners, but most Americans aren't New Yorkers and they're still very proud of their landmark. And so should we.

England's sporting prowesses are few and far between, but I don't see that as such a big deal, it's only sport. And we're pretty good at football at any rate.

What I think is best about being English is simply being English, it's an intangible quality. The sense of humour, the way of life, the cultural foibles, the long line of famous Englishmen, its prowess in the fields of literature and theatre, even our much-envied political system. And we should never forget history, because that is singularly inexecusable. Our problem is that we are far too self-loathing. BTW, try naming a single famous Belgian.

P.S. I do however detest the inbred moochers we call the monarchy.