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Goatboy's excellent thread on this game has got a lot of people thinking it seems. Maybe we should do something about it. Someone suggested it at the time, but why not ask Special Reserve not to sell it?
I don't believe in censorship, but I do believe in choice and that your choices say a lot about your character. We have a choice not to buy the game. Special Reserve have a choice not to sell and profit from it. So if you would rather SR didn't sell Hooligan then make your feelings known here.
(By the way, this isn't some anti-SR thing: great company, good value, nice forums. But we ALL need to take a stand against fascism, even as 'entertainment'.)
I don't believe in censorship, but I do believe in choice and that your choices say a lot about your character. We have a choice not to buy the game. Special Reserve have a choice not to sell and profit from it. So if you would rather SR didn't sell Hooligan then make your feelings known here.
(By the way, this isn't some anti-SR thing: great company, good value, nice forums. But we ALL need to take a stand against fascism, even as 'entertainment'.)
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unknown kernel wrote:
Fair enough. I'm
> considering something stronger, heroin maybe. I'm supposed to be writing an
> essay but I have done NO work today.
lol... yeah, tell me about it man, I was supposed to have spent yesterday (and today!) coding!
Fair enough. I'm
> considering something stronger, heroin maybe. I'm supposed to be writing an
> essay but I have done NO work today.
lol... yeah, tell me about it man, I was supposed to have spent yesterday (and today!) coding!
Fair enough.
I'm not arguing with ya Shanks, we both ultimately have the same views.
I'm not arguing with ya Shanks, we both ultimately have the same views.
Like I keep saying, I'm not in disagrement over the injustice that has facism.
It just appears to me that your means for dealing with them are with destruction, anger, intimidation and hated.
There is no strenth in using these tools, to me they appear as more of a weakness.
I'm not suggesting that we ignore facism, or racism, sexism, child abuse, etc...
But that an alternate course of action may be required.
Destruction, anger, intimidation and hated are the weapons of facism, and not the way to combat it.
For example... I, myself am whole heartly aginst capital punishment, but you can be assured that if someone were to rape and/or murdered my girlfriend, I would be in no doubt about my wish for them to be dead... but it would still be wrong.
(On a different tak, I went around to my mates last night before we popped out for a couple of bevvies, I mentioned this to his grandad who said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that he fought in the war so people could have a choice, if people wanted to be so bloody stupid then they were fools, but as far as he was concerened, he risked his life and had his friends die so that people could be that bloody stupid, just so long as it was their choice to do so)
It just appears to me that your means for dealing with them are with destruction, anger, intimidation and hated.
There is no strenth in using these tools, to me they appear as more of a weakness.
I'm not suggesting that we ignore facism, or racism, sexism, child abuse, etc...
But that an alternate course of action may be required.
Destruction, anger, intimidation and hated are the weapons of facism, and not the way to combat it.
For example... I, myself am whole heartly aginst capital punishment, but you can be assured that if someone were to rape and/or murdered my girlfriend, I would be in no doubt about my wish for them to be dead... but it would still be wrong.
(On a different tak, I went around to my mates last night before we popped out for a couple of bevvies, I mentioned this to his grandad who said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that he fought in the war so people could have a choice, if people wanted to be so bloody stupid then they were fools, but as far as he was concerened, he risked his life and had his friends die so that people could be that bloody stupid, just so long as it was their choice to do so)
Armatige Shanks wrote:
> unknown kernel, valid points man... I'll get back to you, honest, I just need
> some booze first :)
Fair enough. I'm considering something stronger, heroin maybe. I'm supposed to be writing an essay but I have done NO work today.
> unknown kernel, valid points man... I'll get back to you, honest, I just need
> some booze first :)
Fair enough. I'm considering something stronger, heroin maybe. I'm supposed to be writing an essay but I have done NO work today.
unknown kernel, valid points man... I'll get back to you, honest, I just need some booze first :)
Goatboy, I'm sorry man, I'm going to have to throw the towel in for the moment... I'm trying to program and you've fried my brain!... We can continue later/tommorow if you like :)
Armatige Shanks wrote:
>But I do know that hiding it from public view wont solve the problem, it will just move it elsewhere, underground.
>Then educate beyond the pavlovian. Encourage social change
I think by discussing the game, and its pathetic political standpoint, we are keeping these issues in the public view. These ideas breed underground, where no one will challenge them. By objecting to this game we're not denying fascist ideas the right to exist, but challenging the truth of them. It doesn't hurt people's freedom too much to hear people say 'This is not acceptable entertainment, and here's why...'
And I think that in our own small way we ARE encouraging social change. Ideas like fascism don't just spring out of thin air: they're passed on from person to person. Each link in the chain can choose not to tell anyone else, or to tell people but refute the argument. Bookshops can choose not to sell Mein Kampf; I can choose not to pass on racist jokes; HMV can choose not to stock Hooligans. It's not much but, since none of us on the forums hold government posts, it's about the best we can do right now.
>But I do know that hiding it from public view wont solve the problem, it will just move it elsewhere, underground.
>Then educate beyond the pavlovian. Encourage social change
I think by discussing the game, and its pathetic political standpoint, we are keeping these issues in the public view. These ideas breed underground, where no one will challenge them. By objecting to this game we're not denying fascist ideas the right to exist, but challenging the truth of them. It doesn't hurt people's freedom too much to hear people say 'This is not acceptable entertainment, and here's why...'
And I think that in our own small way we ARE encouraging social change. Ideas like fascism don't just spring out of thin air: they're passed on from person to person. Each link in the chain can choose not to tell anyone else, or to tell people but refute the argument. Bookshops can choose not to sell Mein Kampf; I can choose not to pass on racist jokes; HMV can choose not to stock Hooligans. It's not much but, since none of us on the forums hold government posts, it's about the best we can do right now.
I haven't had time to read through all the posts here and maybe some of this has been said before, if so then sorry.
Ok this game that is due to be released is not the usual "adult" themed game as we all may see it. When I read Goatboys topoic yesterday I agreed with what he said as I had seen this game on TV and it does indeed look and seem wrong. I do think the develpopers have overstepped the limit and I do think that games like this just don't belong in the gaming market.
but
I don't think it should be banned or that SR shouldn't sell it. Why? because we should have the choice, it is the same with movies, music, tv etc. We are always bound to see things we don't like that promote things that we feel strongly against. If you don't like it you don't buy it but we shouldn't have the final say as there will be those out there who want it or like the look of it. There is music out there that goes on about murder, rape, abuse, drugs etc. Another issue bu I don't want to go into that. The way I see it is we are always going to see things like this, It is a way of life thesedays and with technology getting better I think we may see worse things in the future.
I think the developers have chosen this because they know it will get bad press, but bad press sells these days. The timming in my view is way off, before the world cup does make all this all the more serious.
Ok this game that is due to be released is not the usual "adult" themed game as we all may see it. When I read Goatboys topoic yesterday I agreed with what he said as I had seen this game on TV and it does indeed look and seem wrong. I do think the develpopers have overstepped the limit and I do think that games like this just don't belong in the gaming market.
but
I don't think it should be banned or that SR shouldn't sell it. Why? because we should have the choice, it is the same with movies, music, tv etc. We are always bound to see things we don't like that promote things that we feel strongly against. If you don't like it you don't buy it but we shouldn't have the final say as there will be those out there who want it or like the look of it. There is music out there that goes on about murder, rape, abuse, drugs etc. Another issue bu I don't want to go into that. The way I see it is we are always going to see things like this, It is a way of life thesedays and with technology getting better I think we may see worse things in the future.
I think the developers have chosen this because they know it will get bad press, but bad press sells these days. The timming in my view is way off, before the world cup does make all this all the more serious.
There is a world of difference between "hiding it from public view" and combatting facism in arenas more serious than a computer game.
There is a time and place to discuss facism and the outcomes, and putting a video game out where you indulge in illegal and immoral acts is not it.
Creating this game serves no purpose.
If it were a serious discussion on the advantages of facism, then it could be considered valid. It would be someone trying to explain the reasons for why they think the way they do.
There is a channel open for discussion and argument.
Mein Kampf, as odious as it is, at least attempts to explain why Hitler thought the way he did.
It is the discussion of an idealogical view.
But this game is merely glorification of Facism, with no attempt at explantion offered.
That is what I object to, that is why I want to see this removed - because it serves no purpose other than to offer thrills and entertainment at the expense of murdering minority groups - which is absolutely inexcusable.
A genuine explanation of Facism and someone believing enough, however misguided is one thing.
A video game involving nazi murder is something else entirely.
There is a time and place to discuss facism and the outcomes, and putting a video game out where you indulge in illegal and immoral acts is not it.
Creating this game serves no purpose.
If it were a serious discussion on the advantages of facism, then it could be considered valid. It would be someone trying to explain the reasons for why they think the way they do.
There is a channel open for discussion and argument.
Mein Kampf, as odious as it is, at least attempts to explain why Hitler thought the way he did.
It is the discussion of an idealogical view.
But this game is merely glorification of Facism, with no attempt at explantion offered.
That is what I object to, that is why I want to see this removed - because it serves no purpose other than to offer thrills and entertainment at the expense of murdering minority groups - which is absolutely inexcusable.
A genuine explanation of Facism and someone believing enough, however misguided is one thing.
A video game involving nazi murder is something else entirely.
Unknown Kernel wrote:
>Fascism and racism won't be beaten by ignoring them. You need to expose these lies for what they are. That means ridiculing them, attacking them, countering them with the truth.
Armatige Shanks wrote:
>No it doesnt, fighting hate with hate never works
Exposing fascism's lies isn't fighting hate with hate. If someone says to me, "I hate Jews, they're the cause of all evil in the world" then I'm not going to respond by saying "well, I see your point there: it's a shame your views aren't portrayed more widely in the media". You can't argue with a view like that rationally and calmly: it's just plain rubbish. You might as well have a conversation about planetary orbits with someone who doesn't believe in gravity. So you laugh at them; ask them exactly HOW Jews are responsible for all the evil in the world; then you tell them why they're wrong.
I don't think I've taken a reactionary view on this subject, either. I've said all along that it's the choice of SR (and anyone else) whether they sell this game. All I've said is that we are entitled to an opinion on their decision, and have a right to discuss amongst ourselves what that decision should be.
>Fascism and racism won't be beaten by ignoring them. You need to expose these lies for what they are. That means ridiculing them, attacking them, countering them with the truth.
Armatige Shanks wrote:
>No it doesnt, fighting hate with hate never works
Exposing fascism's lies isn't fighting hate with hate. If someone says to me, "I hate Jews, they're the cause of all evil in the world" then I'm not going to respond by saying "well, I see your point there: it's a shame your views aren't portrayed more widely in the media". You can't argue with a view like that rationally and calmly: it's just plain rubbish. You might as well have a conversation about planetary orbits with someone who doesn't believe in gravity. So you laugh at them; ask them exactly HOW Jews are responsible for all the evil in the world; then you tell them why they're wrong.
I don't think I've taken a reactionary view on this subject, either. I've said all along that it's the choice of SR (and anyone else) whether they sell this game. All I've said is that we are entitled to an opinion on their decision, and have a right to discuss amongst ourselves what that decision should be.
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