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Sorry I couldnt bleep the swearing, so please don't be offended
My parents handled it a lot better =) and I still get to have christmas presents ^^
I don't think going to church every week is suddenly going to change his mind. I wonder how she would have reacted, had he told her he was gay. =)
Sorry I couldnt bleep the swearing, so please don't be offended
My parents handled it a lot better =) and I still get to have christmas presents ^^
I don't think going to church every week is suddenly going to change his mind. I wonder how she would have reacted, had he told her he was gay. =)
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Geffdof wrote:
>
> People feel guilt for crimes they commit but have
> gotten away with so morals cant simply come from the law or
> society's rules.
>
Why not? They commit a crime and get away with it, yet they still know it's wrong to society at large, they don't suddenly ignore the world around them. Even taking it to an intuitionistic level, they know it's not how their world works.
>
> People feel guilt for crimes they commit but have
> gotten away with so morals cant simply come from the law or
> society's rules.
>
Why not? They commit a crime and get away with it, yet they still know it's wrong to society at large, they don't suddenly ignore the world around them. Even taking it to an intuitionistic level, they know it's not how their world works.
Geffdof, what is Christianity but lots of people believing in the same thing? Even if God exists, it doesn't mean Christianity has to as a widespread religion - it exists because people chose to believe in it, and create a wider sense of identity.
Secular law and ethics exist and WORK because they are rationally described and created. Maybe without a God there is nothing implicitly wrong, that'd be a much more interesting debate. But so what? Murder isn't necessarily implicitly wrong, but it'MADE wrong by us because it is negative to us, and as such we create a sense where it is prohibited. I don't see why this is inadequate in anyway. It's like looking at a beautiful painting and saying it's rubbish because you don't know who the artist is, so it has no integrity, despite the fact it is still beautiful and aesthetically pleasing, as well as skilfully constructed.
Secular law and ethics exist and WORK because they are rationally described and created. Maybe without a God there is nothing implicitly wrong, that'd be a much more interesting debate. But so what? Murder isn't necessarily implicitly wrong, but it'MADE wrong by us because it is negative to us, and as such we create a sense where it is prohibited. I don't see why this is inadequate in anyway. It's like looking at a beautiful painting and saying it's rubbish because you don't know who the artist is, so it has no integrity, despite the fact it is still beautiful and aesthetically pleasing, as well as skilfully constructed.
the diffrents with christianity to any other religion is that being a christian meens that u belive in a higher be'ing.
it dose'nt meen one has to go to church every week nore dose it meen dedicating your like to no sex,drink,drugs or any other of lifes lil preshurs, it just meen u need to belive in a higher
be'ing.
so go on... u can have chrismas prezzi's, just remeber the reason we have christmas.
:D
it dose'nt meen one has to go to church every week nore dose it meen dedicating your like to no sex,drink,drugs or any other of lifes lil preshurs, it just meen u need to belive in a higher
be'ing.
so go on... u can have chrismas prezzi's, just remeber the reason we have christmas.
:D
Geffdof wrote:
> Yeah, but what is the law? The opinion of someone. The law isnt
> objectively right.
It's subjectively right in the eyes of the people who uphold it and therefore it's as close to objective as you'll get seeing as right and wrong is a human perception or concept.
> Take murder for example. Its wrong in the eyes of the law. But
> if you could commit a murder and get away with it from a legal
> point of view (not enough evidence to prosecute etc) that doenst
> stop what you've done being wrong or you feeling guilt for what
> youve done.
No such thing as a perfect system and i'll remind you that verdicts come back guilty or not guilty, never innocent.
> People feel guilt for crimes they commit but have
> gotten away with so morals cant simply come from the law or
> society's rules.
What? That makes no sense at all
> Yeah, but what is the law? The opinion of someone. The law isnt
> objectively right.
It's subjectively right in the eyes of the people who uphold it and therefore it's as close to objective as you'll get seeing as right and wrong is a human perception or concept.
> Take murder for example. Its wrong in the eyes of the law. But
> if you could commit a murder and get away with it from a legal
> point of view (not enough evidence to prosecute etc) that doenst
> stop what you've done being wrong or you feeling guilt for what
> youve done.
No such thing as a perfect system and i'll remind you that verdicts come back guilty or not guilty, never innocent.
> People feel guilt for crimes they commit but have
> gotten away with so morals cant simply come from the law or
> society's rules.
What? That makes no sense at all
Yeah, but what is the law? The opinion of someone. The law isnt objectively right. Look at other countries around the world. They have different laws to us. If you break the law people in your society won't like you because they are the rules they want to follow but the law itself doenst provide any kind of moral values. Things can be lawfully wrong and you wouldnt want to do them in case you go to prison but that wouldnt provide any morals.
Take murder for example. Its wrong in the eyes of the law. But if you could commit a murder and get away with it from a legal point of view (not enough evidence to prosecute etc) that doenst stop what you've done being wrong or you feeling guilt for what youve done. People feel guilt for crimes they commit but have gotten away with so morals cant simply come from the law or society's rules.
Take murder for example. Its wrong in the eyes of the law. But if you could commit a murder and get away with it from a legal point of view (not enough evidence to prosecute etc) that doenst stop what you've done being wrong or you feeling guilt for what youve done. People feel guilt for crimes they commit but have gotten away with so morals cant simply come from the law or society's rules.
Geffdof wrote:
> If I honestly thought there was no God Id just go out now and
> rob a car and steal a big TV etc and just take what I want
> without a care in the world because at the end of the day
> nothing would matter and Id be accountable to nobody. I dont see
> how moral codes work without God.
You'd be accountable to the law. Whatever your belief in God, if you steal something such as a car, you'll be spending time in prison. Simple.
> If I honestly thought there was no God Id just go out now and
> rob a car and steal a big TV etc and just take what I want
> without a care in the world because at the end of the day
> nothing would matter and Id be accountable to nobody. I dont see
> how moral codes work without God.
You'd be accountable to the law. Whatever your belief in God, if you steal something such as a car, you'll be spending time in prison. Simple.
I was saying that there are no reasons behind the morals. Without God things are just socially unacceptable rather than implicitly wrong.
If I honestly thought there was no God Id just go out now and rob a car and steal a big TV etc and just take what I want without a care in the world because at the end of the day nothing would matter and Id be accountable to nobody. I dont see how moral codes work without God.
If I honestly thought there was no God Id just go out now and rob a car and steal a big TV etc and just take what I want without a care in the world because at the end of the day nothing would matter and Id be accountable to nobody. I dont see how moral codes work without God.
I think he's arguing that there is no reasoning behind a moral code without God. This is balls. Going with a publicly enforced moral code is rewarding while going against it will lead to punishment. Where before the life persuit was to get into Heaven because life was so crap, people have now evolved to enjoy the life they have on this planet instead. Their thinking has evolved beyond God, just like a child grows to not need their parents.
I presume that's a reply for Geffdof by proxy to my post? I'll take it as so. Aha I see. Well anyway, that gave me a chance to add another clause :p
Ok, here's a basic rule for why one shouldn't kill. To kill another human being is to curtail their life, therefore their capacities, their pleasures, and also to severely damage those who have relationships with them. Also, it provides hugely negative consequences for various groups involved, and also on a basic level, you don't treat others the way you wouldn't wish to be.
That's a basic, basic reasoning as to why, devoid of God. It works I'd say. In fact, I find it actually harder to argue that we HAVE to have a God to have viable ethics to back it up. God said killing is wrong, great. So has secular ethics, and ethics also works. They are right because they work rationally. Not because a divine creature said so.
Ok, here's a basic rule for why one shouldn't kill. To kill another human being is to curtail their life, therefore their capacities, their pleasures, and also to severely damage those who have relationships with them. Also, it provides hugely negative consequences for various groups involved, and also on a basic level, you don't treat others the way you wouldn't wish to be.
That's a basic, basic reasoning as to why, devoid of God. It works I'd say. In fact, I find it actually harder to argue that we HAVE to have a God to have viable ethics to back it up. God said killing is wrong, great. So has secular ethics, and ethics also works. They are right because they work rationally. Not because a divine creature said so.
Geffdof wrote:
> If we are just some
> random accident then there is no such thing as morality. There
> may be opinions of a majority in society who live by rules to
> make things easier for each other but it doesn't mean those
> people are right or wrong.
We have developed a sense of morality, based on conscience, via living in a society
> Why would it be wrong to kill someone
> if God didn't exist?
Because obviously it's an act which causes great emotional trauma to the other person and we live in a conscious society, knowing full well what are actions do to others
> We would just be a lump of meaningless flesh
> with no reason for existing so if one person has a different
> opinion to another person there would be nobody to say who is
> right or who is wrong.
The Bible may say 'what is right or wrong', but it's still up for interpretation. Likewise, we may only be a 'lump of meaningless flesh', why is it so inconceivable that we have no greater purpose? Like I said though, the purpose could be secular; in terms of preserving the planet, living a good life etc
> If we are just some
> random accident then there is no such thing as morality. There
> may be opinions of a majority in society who live by rules to
> make things easier for each other but it doesn't mean those
> people are right or wrong.
We have developed a sense of morality, based on conscience, via living in a society
> Why would it be wrong to kill someone
> if God didn't exist?
Because obviously it's an act which causes great emotional trauma to the other person and we live in a conscious society, knowing full well what are actions do to others
> We would just be a lump of meaningless flesh
> with no reason for existing so if one person has a different
> opinion to another person there would be nobody to say who is
> right or who is wrong.
The Bible may say 'what is right or wrong', but it's still up for interpretation. Likewise, we may only be a 'lump of meaningless flesh', why is it so inconceivable that we have no greater purpose? Like I said though, the purpose could be secular; in terms of preserving the planet, living a good life etc
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