The "General Games Chat" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
IGN recently did their E3 awards. They are totally irrelevant (one year Blinx won an award) but the ones that are most interesting are best graphics and Technological Excellence. Well the awards are in and for best graphics it is not a surprise to see a the RARE X-box re-release of Conker's Bad Fur Day followed quickly by Splinter Cell 3 with Resident Evil 4 a single vote behind that. You remember Resident Evil 4 surly Bonus? The one with the dissapointing graphical effects?
Well it beat Doom 3 AND Halo 2 to the awards, you know the games with "better graphics". But hey maybe you just meant the lighting and shadow effects yes? Well then you'll be surprised to hear it won the "Technological Excellence" award with this small snippet of information from the IGN crew:
Capcom's latest entry into the survival horror genre not only arrives as the most ambitious Resident Evil yet from a gameplay standpoint, but it also blows the rooftops off everything else out there from a technical one. The game, which once again stars franchise hero Leon Kennedy as he explores dark and gritty locales in search of the President's daughter, features the best graphics yet seen on GameCube. Unbelievably beautiful art design mixes with a host of technical achievements, from environments and character models made using high amounts of polygons to an incredibly detailed lighting and shadow system, explosive particle effects, superb animation and more, all of which make for an end visual experience that will leave players speechless -- and scared.
Your brilliant "Doom III" did not even get a runners up medal, ROME and Half Life 2 won those!
Now shut the hell up.
:) *All in the spirit of friendly debate of course.
Well it beat Doom 3 AND Halo 2 to the awards, you know the games with "better graphics". But hey maybe you just meant the lighting and shadow effects yes? Well then you'll be surprised to hear it won the "Technological Excellence" award with this small snippet of information from the IGN crew:
Capcom's latest entry into the survival horror genre not only arrives as the most ambitious Resident Evil yet from a gameplay standpoint, but it also blows the rooftops off everything else out there from a technical one. The game, which once again stars franchise hero Leon Kennedy as he explores dark and gritty locales in search of the President's daughter, features the best graphics yet seen on GameCube. Unbelievably beautiful art design mixes with a host of technical achievements, from environments and character models made using high amounts of polygons to an incredibly detailed lighting and shadow system, explosive particle effects, superb animation and more, all of which make for an end visual experience that will leave players speechless -- and scared.
Your brilliant "Doom III" did not even get a runners up medal, ROME and Half Life 2 won those!
Now shut the hell up.
:) *All in the spirit of friendly debate of course.
Page:
Rickoss is back! Woo!
Have you seen the new Resi trailer? It proves that everything you've said about the lighting is complete and utter crap.
I'm not hiding from anything, and I certainly ain'tlosing.
For a run down on a comparison between the consoles, go to www.anandtech.com and look for their series on the console hardware comparisons, you'll find a massive run down on what the consoles can and can't do in a 3 part series. Lots of attention is paid to the fact the the Gamecube has a fixed function pipeline and that the Xbox has DirectX 8.1 standard vertex and pixel shaders. No arguement to be had there, that's solid fact.
I would also challenge you to find me a better use of lighting in resi 4 than the fan shadows in the first Resi on the Cube. That was achieveable because it was pre-rendered, not real-time rendered. No lighting in Resi 4 looks as good, or atmospheric as that.
I'll still say it looks like a good game, but could be more atmospheric with better lighting effects, which it looks like the Cube cant handle.
Resi 4 would be a better and more atmospheric game with real-time shadows cast using per-frame calculated shadow volumes. If you don't know what that means, go do some research. The shadows cast by Leon and the zombies in Resi 4 are simple round circles under them, not the shape of the body, look at Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow for an example of that in use.
No one has explained in any article what is good about the shadows. If they simply mean that the side of a model away from the light isn't lit and looks dark, that's not a shadowing effect in Games Technology circles, that is simply a lighting effect.
Classed as a shadow by the game journoulists, classed as lighting by programmers who know what they are talking about.
[URL]http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1873.asp[/URL]
That's a link to a discussion of shadow volumes.
For a run down on a comparison between the consoles, go to www.anandtech.com and look for their series on the console hardware comparisons, you'll find a massive run down on what the consoles can and can't do in a 3 part series. Lots of attention is paid to the fact the the Gamecube has a fixed function pipeline and that the Xbox has DirectX 8.1 standard vertex and pixel shaders. No arguement to be had there, that's solid fact.
I would also challenge you to find me a better use of lighting in resi 4 than the fan shadows in the first Resi on the Cube. That was achieveable because it was pre-rendered, not real-time rendered. No lighting in Resi 4 looks as good, or atmospheric as that.
I'll still say it looks like a good game, but could be more atmospheric with better lighting effects, which it looks like the Cube cant handle.
Resi 4 would be a better and more atmospheric game with real-time shadows cast using per-frame calculated shadow volumes. If you don't know what that means, go do some research. The shadows cast by Leon and the zombies in Resi 4 are simple round circles under them, not the shape of the body, look at Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow for an example of that in use.
No one has explained in any article what is good about the shadows. If they simply mean that the side of a model away from the light isn't lit and looks dark, that's not a shadowing effect in Games Technology circles, that is simply a lighting effect.
Classed as a shadow by the game journoulists, classed as lighting by programmers who know what they are talking about.
[URL]http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1873.asp[/URL]
That's a link to a discussion of shadow volumes.
> Yes, exactly, now I'm off to figure out how to micro-code my PS2
> vector units and leave you Nintendo lovers to worship everything on
> the Cube and think it produces the best looking graphics ever.
Wahey. Can I play too?
:D
----------------------
Anyway. The purpose of my post was to mediate. Lets enjoy the debate and not get personal about it. Worshipping it is not. Admiration it is definitely. A lot of good games are coming out. I want to play them all regardless of platform or technology - becuase and here is the stupidest thing about these arguments - you are only limiting yourself. No one else is losing out - just you. So step back and lets all enjoy the industry and it's fruits.
> vector units and leave you Nintendo lovers to worship everything on
> the Cube and think it produces the best looking graphics ever.
Wahey. Can I play too?
:D
----------------------
Anyway. The purpose of my post was to mediate. Lets enjoy the debate and not get personal about it. Worshipping it is not. Admiration it is definitely. A lot of good games are coming out. I want to play them all regardless of platform or technology - becuase and here is the stupidest thing about these arguments - you are only limiting yourself. No one else is losing out - just you. So step back and lets all enjoy the industry and it's fruits.
That's it Bonus dismiss the argument pretending you know how the Gamecube works.
Yes the X-box can do better but you said, and don't deny it, that Resident Evil 4 is a dissapointment compared to the other games in the series... blaming lack of detail, and mainly, the fact the lighting effects aren't good AT ALL.
I come along declare it is, argument ensures, I find a critic who has played the game who claims the lighting and shadow effects are stunning.
And now you've changed the argument entirely!
My 14 year old brother does that when he's losing.
Yes the X-box can do better but you said, and don't deny it, that Resident Evil 4 is a dissapointment compared to the other games in the series... blaming lack of detail, and mainly, the fact the lighting effects aren't good AT ALL.
I come along declare it is, argument ensures, I find a critic who has played the game who claims the lighting and shadow effects are stunning.
And now you've changed the argument entirely!
My 14 year old brother does that when he's losing.
Delorentis wrote:
> Indeed. And I would be very very surprised if they were in a gamecube
> game. These effects are only really being used in the latest games on
> the latest hardware running the latest DX 9.0b and Pixel Shader 2.
> The features(especially High dynamic range) require extremely high
> data fidelity and bus widths eg 256 bit bus. PC's are where it's at.
> Niether the Xbox, Cube or PS2 could handle these effects in real time
> at a high (ish) resoultion, anti aliased and utilising anisotropic
> filtering. Which currently - the latest Pc's can. If you have the
> MOOLA.
>
It has been done to an extent on the Xbox, Doom 3 uses a lower quality version of it. The reason being that it is only running at 640 * 480. Sure, it's not going to look anywhere near as good as the PC version, but for a console it is admirable. The GC doesn't have Pixel and Vertex shaders, the Xbox does. The Xbox does have a 256bit data bus in the Nvidia GPU which is somewhere between a Geforce 4 and a Geforce 3, just slight modifications.
> If the cube did pull at least some of this off it would be superb.
> What we should all try to remember is that frame rate is life (anyone
> who has used 3dmark 2001 will know where I got that one). If the cube
> can push great eye candy at 60 fps then who cares if some lighting
> effects are missing - it still looks and moves great. Fake lighting
> can be just as impressive and to most punters it wouldn't matter
> anyway cos you will be so drawn into the game.
Yes, I agree, still not said it will be a bad game, more than likely it wil be a good game, only time will tell though.
> The new texture mapping and pixel shading techniques used by
> developers in games like far cry and doom 3 mean lower polygon count
> with a higher level of detail
This called Polybumping and is a far more complex task than you simply state here :D
Two version of the model are made, a stupidly high one, and a normal game style low poly one. Rather than taking the brunt of the hardware hit with the vertex pipeline, much of the actual vertex data of the high model is removed by mapping the differences position of the normal to the polygon of the higher detailed model into a bump map. This is the way it is currently done, but the newest ATI cards i.e. the X800 support the technology in hardware, but will require to be specifically programmed for.
> So where am I going with this>>>!!!
>
> Be glad developers are smart and know all the tricks in the book. Be
> especially glad for console developers who wring all the power out of
> the consoles so we get better and better looking games for no extra
> layout. Be glad too for PC games because they push the technology
> that the next consoles will be based on.
>
> So we all win and love our technology and our games.
Yes, exactly, now I'm off to figure out how to micro-code my PS2 vector units and leave you Nintendo lovers to worship everything on the Cube and think it produces the best looking graphics ever.
> Indeed. And I would be very very surprised if they were in a gamecube
> game. These effects are only really being used in the latest games on
> the latest hardware running the latest DX 9.0b and Pixel Shader 2.
> The features(especially High dynamic range) require extremely high
> data fidelity and bus widths eg 256 bit bus. PC's are where it's at.
> Niether the Xbox, Cube or PS2 could handle these effects in real time
> at a high (ish) resoultion, anti aliased and utilising anisotropic
> filtering. Which currently - the latest Pc's can. If you have the
> MOOLA.
>
It has been done to an extent on the Xbox, Doom 3 uses a lower quality version of it. The reason being that it is only running at 640 * 480. Sure, it's not going to look anywhere near as good as the PC version, but for a console it is admirable. The GC doesn't have Pixel and Vertex shaders, the Xbox does. The Xbox does have a 256bit data bus in the Nvidia GPU which is somewhere between a Geforce 4 and a Geforce 3, just slight modifications.
> If the cube did pull at least some of this off it would be superb.
> What we should all try to remember is that frame rate is life (anyone
> who has used 3dmark 2001 will know where I got that one). If the cube
> can push great eye candy at 60 fps then who cares if some lighting
> effects are missing - it still looks and moves great. Fake lighting
> can be just as impressive and to most punters it wouldn't matter
> anyway cos you will be so drawn into the game.
Yes, I agree, still not said it will be a bad game, more than likely it wil be a good game, only time will tell though.
> The new texture mapping and pixel shading techniques used by
> developers in games like far cry and doom 3 mean lower polygon count
> with a higher level of detail
This called Polybumping and is a far more complex task than you simply state here :D
Two version of the model are made, a stupidly high one, and a normal game style low poly one. Rather than taking the brunt of the hardware hit with the vertex pipeline, much of the actual vertex data of the high model is removed by mapping the differences position of the normal to the polygon of the higher detailed model into a bump map. This is the way it is currently done, but the newest ATI cards i.e. the X800 support the technology in hardware, but will require to be specifically programmed for.
> So where am I going with this>>>!!!
>
> Be glad developers are smart and know all the tricks in the book. Be
> especially glad for console developers who wring all the power out of
> the consoles so we get better and better looking games for no extra
> layout. Be glad too for PC games because they push the technology
> that the next consoles will be based on.
>
> So we all win and love our technology and our games.
Yes, exactly, now I'm off to figure out how to micro-code my PS2 vector units and leave you Nintendo lovers to worship everything on the Cube and think it produces the best looking graphics ever.
To be honest, I think the proof is in the pudding.
Whatever effects Resi 4 does and doesn't have, it looks amazing and the lighting's great - and that's the be all and end all.
Whatever effects Resi 4 does and doesn't have, it looks amazing and the lighting's great - and that's the be all and end all.
It won best techincal acchievement award at E3... beating all X-box software.
I have not seen one X-box game that has surpassed the lighting effects used in Resident Evil 4.
Don't make me dig up the post, you clearly stated the last Resident Evil games looked better and I couldn't believe you said that and you backed up your point with "dissapointing lighting effects"... which everyone else has apparently forgotten to mention.
I have not seen one X-box game that has surpassed the lighting effects used in Resident Evil 4.
Don't make me dig up the post, you clearly stated the last Resident Evil games looked better and I couldn't believe you said that and you backed up your point with "dissapointing lighting effects"... which everyone else has apparently forgotten to mention.
Bonus wrote:
> Still doesn't mean you have the slightest idea about what high dynamic
> range lighting, real time shadow volumes and the like are.
>
Indeed. And I would be very very surprised if they were in a gamecube game. These effects are only really being used in the latest games on the latest hardware running the latest DX 9.0b and Pixel Shader 2. The features(especially High dynamic range) require extremely high data fidelity and bus widths eg 256 bit bus. PC's are where it's at. Niether the Xbox, Cube or PS2 could handle these effects in real time at a high (ish) resoultion, anti aliased and utilising anisotropic filtering. Which currently - the latest Pc's can. If you have the MOOLA.
>
> To gte a game to lok this good on the Gamecube is an achievement
> worth noting, I'll still stick by my opinion that it would be better
> with better lighting effects.
If the cube did pull at least some of this off it would be superb. What we should all try to remember is that frame rate is life (anyone who has used 3dmark 2001 will know where I got that one). If the cube can push great eye candy at 60 fps then who cares if some lighting effects are missing - it still looks and moves great. Fake lighting can be just as impressive and to most punters it wouldn't matter anyway cos you will be so drawn into the game.
> You might as well remind people that is all I said aboutt he game. I
> didn't say it looked crap, just that it would be a more atmospheric
> game with better lighting, the sort of lighting which the Gamecube is
> not likely to be capable of.
Point taken and I agree. Any game could do with real time lighting - it is quite an eye opener if used correctly. But that's not all thats great. The new texture mapping and pixel shading techniques used by developers in games like far cry and doom 3 mean lower polygon count with a higher level of detail (or at least it looks that way! the eye sees it but "physically" it doesn't exist since it is a surface map). This is another example of "fake" detail but it works and looks great and we don't care! If the machines had the horsepower to actually model each of those polygons we would be looking at film studio strength rendering. Something none of us can realistically afford.
So where am I going with this>>>!!!
Be glad developers are smart and know all the tricks in the book. Be especially glad for console developers who wring all the power out of the consoles so we get better and better looking games for no extra layout. Be glad too for PC games because they push the technology that the next consoles will be based on.
So we all win and love our technology and our games.
> Still doesn't mean you have the slightest idea about what high dynamic
> range lighting, real time shadow volumes and the like are.
>
Indeed. And I would be very very surprised if they were in a gamecube game. These effects are only really being used in the latest games on the latest hardware running the latest DX 9.0b and Pixel Shader 2. The features(especially High dynamic range) require extremely high data fidelity and bus widths eg 256 bit bus. PC's are where it's at. Niether the Xbox, Cube or PS2 could handle these effects in real time at a high (ish) resoultion, anti aliased and utilising anisotropic filtering. Which currently - the latest Pc's can. If you have the MOOLA.
>
> To gte a game to lok this good on the Gamecube is an achievement
> worth noting, I'll still stick by my opinion that it would be better
> with better lighting effects.
If the cube did pull at least some of this off it would be superb. What we should all try to remember is that frame rate is life (anyone who has used 3dmark 2001 will know where I got that one). If the cube can push great eye candy at 60 fps then who cares if some lighting effects are missing - it still looks and moves great. Fake lighting can be just as impressive and to most punters it wouldn't matter anyway cos you will be so drawn into the game.
> You might as well remind people that is all I said aboutt he game. I
> didn't say it looked crap, just that it would be a more atmospheric
> game with better lighting, the sort of lighting which the Gamecube is
> not likely to be capable of.
Point taken and I agree. Any game could do with real time lighting - it is quite an eye opener if used correctly. But that's not all thats great. The new texture mapping and pixel shading techniques used by developers in games like far cry and doom 3 mean lower polygon count with a higher level of detail (or at least it looks that way! the eye sees it but "physically" it doesn't exist since it is a surface map). This is another example of "fake" detail but it works and looks great and we don't care! If the machines had the horsepower to actually model each of those polygons we would be looking at film studio strength rendering. Something none of us can realistically afford.
So where am I going with this>>>!!!
Be glad developers are smart and know all the tricks in the book. Be especially glad for console developers who wring all the power out of the consoles so we get better and better looking games for no extra layout. Be glad too for PC games because they push the technology that the next consoles will be based on.
So we all win and love our technology and our games.
Still doesn't mean you have the slightest idea about what high dynamic range lighting, real time shadow volumes and the like are.
They are not present in the game as it is being shown at the moment, they are in other games which I have said look better.
To gte a game to lok this good on the Gamecube is an achievement worth noting, I'll still stick by my opinion that it would be better with better lighting effects.
You might as well remind people that is all I said aboutt he game. I didn't say it looked crap, just that it would be a more atmospheric game with better lighting, the sort of lighting which the Gamecube is not likely to be capable of.
They are not present in the game as it is being shown at the moment, they are in other games which I have said look better.
To gte a game to lok this good on the Gamecube is an achievement worth noting, I'll still stick by my opinion that it would be better with better lighting effects.
You might as well remind people that is all I said aboutt he game. I didn't say it looked crap, just that it would be a more atmospheric game with better lighting, the sort of lighting which the Gamecube is not likely to be capable of.
Page: