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Does God exist? if he did what came before him?
Page:
He obviously does, he just posted in theis thread.
Does God Exist?
Ask the Pope; He knows now.
Ask the Pope; He knows now.
mad man 4 wrote:
> god DON'T exist, if he diod evil would be gone, as the devil once said
> in the end of days "if so thing good happons its a miricle but
> if somthing bad happon he moves in mistearss ways"
Erm... That's such as poor argument, as Displayed said,without God there is no devil, well probably.
Also, you're assuming theat "God" is the christian God. How do you know that God is not someone completely different, perhaps an evil God who causes suffering.
Didn't think did you!?
> god DON'T exist, if he diod evil would be gone, as the devil once said
> in the end of days "if so thing good happons its a miricle but
> if somthing bad happon he moves in mistearss ways"
Erm... That's such as poor argument, as Displayed said,without God there is no devil, well probably.
Also, you're assuming theat "God" is the christian God. How do you know that God is not someone completely different, perhaps an evil God who causes suffering.
Didn't think did you!?
mad man 4 wrote:
> god DON'T exist, if he diod evil would be gone, as the devil once said
> in the end of days "if so thing good happons its a miricle but
> if somthing bad happon he moves in mistearss ways"
If there is no God there is no Devil
> god DON'T exist, if he diod evil would be gone, as the devil once said
> in the end of days "if so thing good happons its a miricle but
> if somthing bad happon he moves in mistearss ways"
If there is no God there is no Devil
god DON'T exist, if he diod evil would be gone, as the devil once said in the end of days "if so thing good happons its a miricle but if somthing bad happon he moves in mistearss ways"
Strafio wrote:
> Flock wrote:
> If he knows it why should i tell him.
> I hold grudges and i've got plenty of them that i'm not letting go
> of.
>
> Dude, even the Buddha said grudges aren't good for you.
> Talking of which, how's things working out for you?
> Still dabbling in the "Eight Noble Truths" and whatnot?
I'd like to say yes but obviously not, seem to have gone the other way recently, patience tested.
I dont have a grudge against god, i just deny him then it all goes away, as for other people yes i seem to be directing any anger i have at those who get on my t**s at the moment.
> I don't agree with this whole reject God thing.
> God made us like this, presumably to be like this (considering he's
> supposed to be omnipotent and not screw up on the design).
If he made me and he's supposed to call me and he doesn't call me how on earth does he see fit to judge me?
> Fact is if we are walking away from him wanting to be a mini God 'I
> can do nicely by myself thankyou even though i cant explain why I am
> here in first place.. I am alive so I gonna do things MY way'. If we
> are gonna keep rejecting God. Keep being our own Gods. Keep walking
> other way then expect when we die and find O there was a God and a
> reason for my living 'Ok heaven here it comes as there was a God
> after all..'
There is that, i hate being told what to do and to live my life, i am my own god, i confess to myself, i punish myself for my faults and i'll be my own judge when i die.
> I guess I shouldn't get wound up because to most this is just a
> personable belief. The thing is, in order to save "people"
> by spreading the good news ("Jesus has saved you"), they
> first drop the bad news ("saved from what? Oh... until Jesus
> saved you, you were destined for judgement and then an eternity of
> ultimate suffering in hell
Yep good point and i'd add a slight superiority complex as well that is mildly irritating.
Claire, you know me, do you think i'm a bad person and that i deserve to be left behind when i've followed my heart. He has not called me so i get left behind, does that seem fair to you?
> I am changed because of this. Mock away but I would rather be here
> telling other people what he has done for me and my life and how
> free
> and awesome my life is now. And how amazing it is to know where i
> came from and where i going!
I would never mock you and you know that, i consider you a friend.
> I've met Christians with similar (probably more or less the same) and
> kind of admire what they have in someways. It's just I can't believe
> it myself
Amen to that
> Some of my friends have been put off Christianity for life by some
> well-meaning but kind of clumsy evangelics. Also, I read a book about
> 14 people who found God. Not a single one of them were captured by an
> evangelist. They all found God in their own time in their own way.
> If it IS the truth then God's sure to slap it into all of us
> sooner or later! ;-)
And that as well
I think if i'm being lead by something(and it is possible, i do feel i have some purpose) it's being very indirect, i'm not being pulled towards the church and maybe thats how it's supposed to be. Maybe we dont all have to follow the same path to the top floor.
(again appologies for the long post)
> Flock wrote:
> If he knows it why should i tell him.
> I hold grudges and i've got plenty of them that i'm not letting go
> of.
>
> Dude, even the Buddha said grudges aren't good for you.
> Talking of which, how's things working out for you?
> Still dabbling in the "Eight Noble Truths" and whatnot?
I'd like to say yes but obviously not, seem to have gone the other way recently, patience tested.
I dont have a grudge against god, i just deny him then it all goes away, as for other people yes i seem to be directing any anger i have at those who get on my t**s at the moment.
> I don't agree with this whole reject God thing.
> God made us like this, presumably to be like this (considering he's
> supposed to be omnipotent and not screw up on the design).
If he made me and he's supposed to call me and he doesn't call me how on earth does he see fit to judge me?
> Fact is if we are walking away from him wanting to be a mini God 'I
> can do nicely by myself thankyou even though i cant explain why I am
> here in first place.. I am alive so I gonna do things MY way'. If we
> are gonna keep rejecting God. Keep being our own Gods. Keep walking
> other way then expect when we die and find O there was a God and a
> reason for my living 'Ok heaven here it comes as there was a God
> after all..'
There is that, i hate being told what to do and to live my life, i am my own god, i confess to myself, i punish myself for my faults and i'll be my own judge when i die.
> I guess I shouldn't get wound up because to most this is just a
> personable belief. The thing is, in order to save "people"
> by spreading the good news ("Jesus has saved you"), they
> first drop the bad news ("saved from what? Oh... until Jesus
> saved you, you were destined for judgement and then an eternity of
> ultimate suffering in hell
Yep good point and i'd add a slight superiority complex as well that is mildly irritating.
Claire, you know me, do you think i'm a bad person and that i deserve to be left behind when i've followed my heart. He has not called me so i get left behind, does that seem fair to you?
> I am changed because of this. Mock away but I would rather be here
> telling other people what he has done for me and my life and how
> free
> and awesome my life is now. And how amazing it is to know where i
> came from and where i going!
I would never mock you and you know that, i consider you a friend.
> I've met Christians with similar (probably more or less the same) and
> kind of admire what they have in someways. It's just I can't believe
> it myself
Amen to that
> Some of my friends have been put off Christianity for life by some
> well-meaning but kind of clumsy evangelics. Also, I read a book about
> 14 people who found God. Not a single one of them were captured by an
> evangelist. They all found God in their own time in their own way.
> If it IS the truth then God's sure to slap it into all of us
> sooner or later! ;-)
And that as well
I think if i'm being lead by something(and it is possible, i do feel i have some purpose) it's being very indirect, i'm not being pulled towards the church and maybe thats how it's supposed to be. Maybe we dont all have to follow the same path to the top floor.
(again appologies for the long post)
Mickah wrote:
> Haha - Nice reply. But when you were a kid, how many times did you
> keep things from your parents, when they really knew it happened? I
> know a loada times, when I came back drunk (when I wasn't really a
> Christian heh...) woke up in the morning, threw up a couple of times
> in the sink only to have my mum make me some toast and not even ask
> what had happened, though I knew that she knew. I really shoulda told
> her to get it off my chest, but there was that whole fear thing :)
Ah confession, well i live by my mistakes, i carry them with me and i learn by them, talking about them wont change that but i stick by everything i've ever done, mistakes have to be made. To confess them and seek some sort of repentance i'd need to believe they were wrong and i dont, they were mistakes but they were right in the moment and thats all i judge them on.
> Haha - Nice reply. But when you were a kid, how many times did you
> keep things from your parents, when they really knew it happened? I
> know a loada times, when I came back drunk (when I wasn't really a
> Christian heh...) woke up in the morning, threw up a couple of times
> in the sink only to have my mum make me some toast and not even ask
> what had happened, though I knew that she knew. I really shoulda told
> her to get it off my chest, but there was that whole fear thing :)
Ah confession, well i live by my mistakes, i carry them with me and i learn by them, talking about them wont change that but i stick by everything i've ever done, mistakes have to be made. To confess them and seek some sort of repentance i'd need to believe they were wrong and i dont, they were mistakes but they were right in the moment and thats all i judge them on.
Mickah wrote:
> So, you got all these people telling you and you're not listening. Do
> you think someone up there is trying to say something to you :) Just
> because you can't believe straight away (or however many times you've
> been told) doesn't mean that God is gonna give up on you. Yes... Some
> people do get angry. Some people have incredibly hardened hearts, and
> all you can do is pray that God will speak to their hearts. I'm not
> going to try and convert you on the spot over a forum (as that would
> be incredibly insensitive of me) but, I do think you think that if
> you're given this many chances to look deeper, then maybe you
> should.
I'm sure if i asked people on this forum whether i should jump off a cliff plenty would say go ahead, numbers are irrelevant, just because lots of people say it doesn't make it right, just annoying.
I'm not one of the angry ones, it takes a lot more than being asked the same question over and over again to anger me. The chance never comes to me because i'm bankrupt of faith. I dont see much distinction between religious people trying to get me to move towards god and door to door salesmen trying to sell me something i can't afford. Money and faith, i've got neither.
> Put it this way. If God exists and when he judges, you can't call him
> unfair because he didn't give you a chance. What are we doing right
> now? It's now your resposibility to hear his call.
He's not calling me and i'm not calling him, we have an agreement and i dont see how he has any right to judge me when he's never called.
> You don't take someone when they don't want to go? Yes, God does
> choose certain people through utter grace (don't think of it as
> choosing who goes to heaven and hell, but more, who can I pull from
> hell into heaven). But given the opportunity, where would you rather
> go? Into a kingdom where there is no more sadness, no more tears, no
> more loneliness, or to a place of complete seperation from everything
> (and most importantly, God).
> You may have issues with God, but at least then you'd be talking to
> him (or argueing with him hehe :)).
Life is perfect in it's imperfections, i choose to stay until i choose to leave if i had the choice and it should be my choice or completely random. I absolutely object to being plucked out, i dont care even if the grass is greener, i've created my life and i dont want to swap it for something created for me.
I'm not arguing with him, i'm denying his existance, that way i've no bitterness to direct in any direction.
> I'm just replying to a topic that a really good friend told me about.
> As previously stated, I'm not trying to convert you, thats not my
> job. My job is just to tell you what I believe, and I believe that if
> you are ever truelly seperated from God (which I hope and pray you
> aren't) then, it'll be the most miserable time of your life. Since,
> we were made in love, by love, for the sake of love, I'm gonna keep
> telling people how to find love.
You may not be trying to convert but youre handing out the brochures :)
I'm as seperate as i'll ever be and you're right i'm not happy but believing in something after more than this wont make me happy.
What i've said is not a choice, i simply dont believe and i think in part i'm protecting myself from the bitterness i would have if my life was someone's doing and also because the moment i believe in something after this i'm out of here and i'm not waiting to be plucked.
A couple of days ago i commented on people making huge posts with long quotes, i appologise for this.
> So, you got all these people telling you and you're not listening. Do
> you think someone up there is trying to say something to you :) Just
> because you can't believe straight away (or however many times you've
> been told) doesn't mean that God is gonna give up on you. Yes... Some
> people do get angry. Some people have incredibly hardened hearts, and
> all you can do is pray that God will speak to their hearts. I'm not
> going to try and convert you on the spot over a forum (as that would
> be incredibly insensitive of me) but, I do think you think that if
> you're given this many chances to look deeper, then maybe you
> should.
I'm sure if i asked people on this forum whether i should jump off a cliff plenty would say go ahead, numbers are irrelevant, just because lots of people say it doesn't make it right, just annoying.
I'm not one of the angry ones, it takes a lot more than being asked the same question over and over again to anger me. The chance never comes to me because i'm bankrupt of faith. I dont see much distinction between religious people trying to get me to move towards god and door to door salesmen trying to sell me something i can't afford. Money and faith, i've got neither.
> Put it this way. If God exists and when he judges, you can't call him
> unfair because he didn't give you a chance. What are we doing right
> now? It's now your resposibility to hear his call.
He's not calling me and i'm not calling him, we have an agreement and i dont see how he has any right to judge me when he's never called.
> You don't take someone when they don't want to go? Yes, God does
> choose certain people through utter grace (don't think of it as
> choosing who goes to heaven and hell, but more, who can I pull from
> hell into heaven). But given the opportunity, where would you rather
> go? Into a kingdom where there is no more sadness, no more tears, no
> more loneliness, or to a place of complete seperation from everything
> (and most importantly, God).
> You may have issues with God, but at least then you'd be talking to
> him (or argueing with him hehe :)).
Life is perfect in it's imperfections, i choose to stay until i choose to leave if i had the choice and it should be my choice or completely random. I absolutely object to being plucked out, i dont care even if the grass is greener, i've created my life and i dont want to swap it for something created for me.
I'm not arguing with him, i'm denying his existance, that way i've no bitterness to direct in any direction.
> I'm just replying to a topic that a really good friend told me about.
> As previously stated, I'm not trying to convert you, thats not my
> job. My job is just to tell you what I believe, and I believe that if
> you are ever truelly seperated from God (which I hope and pray you
> aren't) then, it'll be the most miserable time of your life. Since,
> we were made in love, by love, for the sake of love, I'm gonna keep
> telling people how to find love.
You may not be trying to convert but youre handing out the brochures :)
I'm as seperate as i'll ever be and you're right i'm not happy but believing in something after more than this wont make me happy.
What i've said is not a choice, i simply dont believe and i think in part i'm protecting myself from the bitterness i would have if my life was someone's doing and also because the moment i believe in something after this i'm out of here and i'm not waiting to be plucked.
A couple of days ago i commented on people making huge posts with long quotes, i appologise for this.
"Man made god, and in the image of Man he created him. god and satan He created them, and Man saw what He had done and it was very good."
Flock wrote:
> If he knows it why should i tell him.
> I hold grudges and i've got plenty of them that i'm not letting go
> of.
Dude, even the Buddha said grudges aren't good for you.
Talking of which, how's things working out for you?
Still dabbling in the "Eight Noble Truths" and whatnot?
It's been a while since we talked about that. :-)
Lil Ginge wrote:
> Im afraid thats what the bible says to though.
Hmmm...
It's an interpretation of the Bible.
Some agree that it says that, some disagree.
> Infact we all same really. There is not one person that doesnt reject
> God - Me being a christian doesnt make me any more holy its by his
> grace I am saved.
I don't agree with this whole reject God thing.
God made us like this, presumably to be like this (considering he's supposed to be omnipotent and not screw up on the design).
> Fact is if we are walking away from him wanting to be a mini God 'I
> can do nicely by myself thankyou even though i cant explain why I am
> here in first place.. I am alive so I gonna do things MY way'. If we
> are gonna keep rejecting God. Keep being our own Gods. Keep walking
> other way then expect when we die and find O there was a God and a
> reason for my living 'Ok heaven here it comes as there was a God
> after all..'
That's what a lot of Christians seem to believe is happening if someone doesn't believe in what they think God is like. Hence the whole "two ways to live" thing which I find kind of narrow minded and possibly a bit arrogant? That THEY know the truth and anyone who disagrees is wrong?
I guess I shouldn't get wound up because to most this is just a personable belief. The thing is, in order to save "people" by spreading the good news ("Jesus has saved you"), they first drop the bad news ("saved from what? Oh... until Jesus saved you, you were destined for judgement and then an eternity of ultimate suffering in hell!)... it's almost like using scare tactics to enforce dogma (although I know they don't really mean it like that, they have the best of intentions but... :-S).
> He is gonna say 'Who are you?' ... Of course he is almighty and knows
> exactly who you are. ...But after a lifetime of rejection from God
> and not knowing him how are you then going to spend eternity with
> him...its not going to be the loving God in which you knew loved you
> and adored you -
The thing is, how does he make himself known to us?
By an ancient book? Amongst all the other ancient books that claim to be "the truth" but are actually false? What about people who never had the chance to even hear OF the Bible, let alone become immersed in it?
Is it fair that people who never had the slightest chance of becoming a Christian get to burn in hell? That's a question that many Christians have problems answering, especially as God is supposed to be just, caring and loving.
I personally think they took Jesus' parables about judgement too literally (I think a lot of them take Genesis too literally too) but hey, maybe I've got it all wrong too. :-)
Is God going to sentance me to eternal damnation for getting it wrong?
> I am changed because of this. Mock away but I would rather be here
> telling other people what he has done for me and my life and how free
> and awesome my life is now. And how amazing it is to know where i
> came from and where i going!
I'd never mock your beliefs.
I've met Christians with similar (probably more or less the same) and kind of admire what they have in someways. It's just I can't believe it myself because some things just don't make sense to me - like this whole judgement thing. Seems to go against a lot of the things God is supposed to be like infinately loving, infinitely understand, etc, the fact that Jesus himself condemned judging, and the fact that God made us the way we are so why would he make us in a way that's impossible to live up to his "standard" and then carry on to punish anyone who doesn't do so with eternal torment... :-)
Anysway, there's a million and one reasons why this "two ways to live" thing doesn't add up to me, and I believe that there's no way God can be like that. Not that you've got it wrong and that your "relationship" is imaginary or anything, it's just more your personal truth, the truth God gave to you and not necessarily the truth for everyone else.
That's why I think Evangelicism is a bad idea. (so don't feel bad for not being "good" at it - it's like trying to be good at swimming with concrete flippers! ;-))
Besides, it doesn't really work.
Some of my friends have been put off Christianity for life by some well-meaning but kind of clumsy evangelics. Also, I read a book about 14 people who found God. Not a single one of them were captured by an evangelist. They all found God in their own time in their own way.
If it IS the truth then God's sure to slap it into all of us sooner or later! ;-)
> If he knows it why should i tell him.
> I hold grudges and i've got plenty of them that i'm not letting go
> of.
Dude, even the Buddha said grudges aren't good for you.
Talking of which, how's things working out for you?
Still dabbling in the "Eight Noble Truths" and whatnot?
It's been a while since we talked about that. :-)
Lil Ginge wrote:
> Im afraid thats what the bible says to though.
Hmmm...
It's an interpretation of the Bible.
Some agree that it says that, some disagree.
> Infact we all same really. There is not one person that doesnt reject
> God - Me being a christian doesnt make me any more holy its by his
> grace I am saved.
I don't agree with this whole reject God thing.
God made us like this, presumably to be like this (considering he's supposed to be omnipotent and not screw up on the design).
> Fact is if we are walking away from him wanting to be a mini God 'I
> can do nicely by myself thankyou even though i cant explain why I am
> here in first place.. I am alive so I gonna do things MY way'. If we
> are gonna keep rejecting God. Keep being our own Gods. Keep walking
> other way then expect when we die and find O there was a God and a
> reason for my living 'Ok heaven here it comes as there was a God
> after all..'
That's what a lot of Christians seem to believe is happening if someone doesn't believe in what they think God is like. Hence the whole "two ways to live" thing which I find kind of narrow minded and possibly a bit arrogant? That THEY know the truth and anyone who disagrees is wrong?
I guess I shouldn't get wound up because to most this is just a personable belief. The thing is, in order to save "people" by spreading the good news ("Jesus has saved you"), they first drop the bad news ("saved from what? Oh... until Jesus saved you, you were destined for judgement and then an eternity of ultimate suffering in hell!)... it's almost like using scare tactics to enforce dogma (although I know they don't really mean it like that, they have the best of intentions but... :-S).
> He is gonna say 'Who are you?' ... Of course he is almighty and knows
> exactly who you are. ...But after a lifetime of rejection from God
> and not knowing him how are you then going to spend eternity with
> him...its not going to be the loving God in which you knew loved you
> and adored you -
The thing is, how does he make himself known to us?
By an ancient book? Amongst all the other ancient books that claim to be "the truth" but are actually false? What about people who never had the chance to even hear OF the Bible, let alone become immersed in it?
Is it fair that people who never had the slightest chance of becoming a Christian get to burn in hell? That's a question that many Christians have problems answering, especially as God is supposed to be just, caring and loving.
I personally think they took Jesus' parables about judgement too literally (I think a lot of them take Genesis too literally too) but hey, maybe I've got it all wrong too. :-)
Is God going to sentance me to eternal damnation for getting it wrong?
> I am changed because of this. Mock away but I would rather be here
> telling other people what he has done for me and my life and how free
> and awesome my life is now. And how amazing it is to know where i
> came from and where i going!
I'd never mock your beliefs.
I've met Christians with similar (probably more or less the same) and kind of admire what they have in someways. It's just I can't believe it myself because some things just don't make sense to me - like this whole judgement thing. Seems to go against a lot of the things God is supposed to be like infinately loving, infinitely understand, etc, the fact that Jesus himself condemned judging, and the fact that God made us the way we are so why would he make us in a way that's impossible to live up to his "standard" and then carry on to punish anyone who doesn't do so with eternal torment... :-)
Anysway, there's a million and one reasons why this "two ways to live" thing doesn't add up to me, and I believe that there's no way God can be like that. Not that you've got it wrong and that your "relationship" is imaginary or anything, it's just more your personal truth, the truth God gave to you and not necessarily the truth for everyone else.
That's why I think Evangelicism is a bad idea. (so don't feel bad for not being "good" at it - it's like trying to be good at swimming with concrete flippers! ;-))
Besides, it doesn't really work.
Some of my friends have been put off Christianity for life by some well-meaning but kind of clumsy evangelics. Also, I read a book about 14 people who found God. Not a single one of them were captured by an evangelist. They all found God in their own time in their own way.
If it IS the truth then God's sure to slap it into all of us sooner or later! ;-)
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