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Now ther's a controversial title! Before you post without reading what I have to say, please remember I have no doubt that Shigsy is one of the greatest (if not THE greatest games maker ever!). Nor am I saying that Nintendo games are anywhere next to excellent. Read on...
Several years ago, just as polygons were taking off and 2D games were thought to never be replaced, Shigsy Miyamoto was designing a new game. This was to be a 3D fighter unlike anything the world was to have seen. After spending years months working on the project he gave up. Nintendo were unable to create the game- it was too hartd to program.
Yet! In the same space of time, Sega had been making a very similar game to great effect. It was called Virtua Fighter, and the rest is history...
FAST-FORWARD TO THE PRESENT.
Nintendo are making Zelda 64. It is meant to take 2.5 years to make. Then it is delayed. And delayed. And delayed. Reason? It's taking longer than they thought (NOT they are perfecting it... perfection only takes a few months... the delays lasted a year and a half!)
Same story with many other of Nintendo's latest games.
So what's going wrong? Well, in my view one of 3things might be happening:
1) Overambition means that the games become so complicated they take a long time. However, if this is the case, then why should they underestimate the time needed to make the game so much?
2) The dev kits are too hard to work with. The is certainly a reason why Square abandonned the 64... but who programed the dev kit? Nintendo's r&d department!
3) Nintendo are simply bad at programming games. Now, I don't think that this is very likely... Ninty will use only the best programmers. However, these are the people who could not take to jump from 2d to 3d. Maybe they have not be trained in the new techniques being used, or do not have the flare shown by AM2- the team behing Virtua Fighter, F355,Shenmue and many many others!
So, that's the topic. I for one will wait as long as needed to play the next zelda... my 3rd fav game ever!!! However, while that's happening many other great games will be being made. There's something for u to debate over
Sonic
Several years ago, just as polygons were taking off and 2D games were thought to never be replaced, Shigsy Miyamoto was designing a new game. This was to be a 3D fighter unlike anything the world was to have seen. After spending years months working on the project he gave up. Nintendo were unable to create the game- it was too hartd to program.
Yet! In the same space of time, Sega had been making a very similar game to great effect. It was called Virtua Fighter, and the rest is history...
FAST-FORWARD TO THE PRESENT.
Nintendo are making Zelda 64. It is meant to take 2.5 years to make. Then it is delayed. And delayed. And delayed. Reason? It's taking longer than they thought (NOT they are perfecting it... perfection only takes a few months... the delays lasted a year and a half!)
Same story with many other of Nintendo's latest games.
So what's going wrong? Well, in my view one of 3things might be happening:
1) Overambition means that the games become so complicated they take a long time. However, if this is the case, then why should they underestimate the time needed to make the game so much?
2) The dev kits are too hard to work with. The is certainly a reason why Square abandonned the 64... but who programed the dev kit? Nintendo's r&d department!
3) Nintendo are simply bad at programming games. Now, I don't think that this is very likely... Ninty will use only the best programmers. However, these are the people who could not take to jump from 2d to 3d. Maybe they have not be trained in the new techniques being used, or do not have the flare shown by AM2- the team behing Virtua Fighter, F355,Shenmue and many many others!
So, that's the topic. I for one will wait as long as needed to play the next zelda... my 3rd fav game ever!!! However, while that's happening many other great games will be being made. There's something for u to debate over
Sonic
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Zelda was very ambitious, Shigsy said it'll be ready then but it wasn't that simple nothing to do with what you said!
SonicRav wrote:
> turbonutter wrote:
> I don't think a lot of you understand.
> Ninty make excellent games in
> the end, but they are crap at
> actually programming them.
I have
> always thought this but I
> didn't want to memntion it because it
> might be ...
> risky.
Well done for bringing this up.
EXCACTLY WHAT I WAS
> SAYING! If u read the orginal post, the FIRST LINE says that I do
> not doubt ninty's games are less than excellent. But why do they
> take so long? As shigsy admitted about past games, sometimes ninty
> do not have the technical knowhow to make stuff (the Virtua fighter
> example in the original post).
Here is the best example though.
> Remeber Zelda 64 (OOT). If u ever saw the first screens from the
> first few months, the game was full of fog, no texture and boring
> landscape. 4 years later, it was a teaming village- individual stone
> cobbles were visible and there was NO FOG.
However, look at
> another game that was stretching graphics to the max- Shenmue. Sega
> went in and immediatly made the graphic engine that looked as good
> as the finnished game (bar one or 2 changes).
Imagine how many
> extra months ninty's programmers had to play with the old 3D engine
> to produce the result, whereas other big manufacturers go straight
> to the final goal. The final goal being the most amazing game
> ever... almost flawless, and almost always delayed!
Sonic
It's just turbonutter put it in a few less words. {:D
> turbonutter wrote:
> I don't think a lot of you understand.
> Ninty make excellent games in
> the end, but they are crap at
> actually programming them.
I have
> always thought this but I
> didn't want to memntion it because it
> might be ...
> risky.
Well done for bringing this up.
EXCACTLY WHAT I WAS
> SAYING! If u read the orginal post, the FIRST LINE says that I do
> not doubt ninty's games are less than excellent. But why do they
> take so long? As shigsy admitted about past games, sometimes ninty
> do not have the technical knowhow to make stuff (the Virtua fighter
> example in the original post).
Here is the best example though.
> Remeber Zelda 64 (OOT). If u ever saw the first screens from the
> first few months, the game was full of fog, no texture and boring
> landscape. 4 years later, it was a teaming village- individual stone
> cobbles were visible and there was NO FOG.
However, look at
> another game that was stretching graphics to the max- Shenmue. Sega
> went in and immediatly made the graphic engine that looked as good
> as the finnished game (bar one or 2 changes).
Imagine how many
> extra months ninty's programmers had to play with the old 3D engine
> to produce the result, whereas other big manufacturers go straight
> to the final goal. The final goal being the most amazing game
> ever... almost flawless, and almost always delayed!
Sonic
It's just turbonutter put it in a few less words. {:D
New Jimmy wrote:
> Perhaps the Dreamcast is just easier to program than the N64, after
> all the Dreamcast is PC based!
This is 100% true. That is why the PSX, DC and Xbox use PC archetecture- it is easy to program. Meanwhile the PS2 and N64 use something completely different.
The N64 is further hampered by the use of carts... but I won't go into that.
Anyway, Ninty desigened the system and dev tools... so it's their fault!
Sonic
> Perhaps the Dreamcast is just easier to program than the N64, after
> all the Dreamcast is PC based!
This is 100% true. That is why the PSX, DC and Xbox use PC archetecture- it is easy to program. Meanwhile the PS2 and N64 use something completely different.
The N64 is further hampered by the use of carts... but I won't go into that.
Anyway, Ninty desigened the system and dev tools... so it's their fault!
Sonic
turbonutter wrote:
> I don't think a lot of you understand. Ninty make excellent games in
> the end, but they are crap at actually programming them.
I have
> always thought this but I didn't want to memntion it because it
> might be ... risky.
Well done for bringing this up.
EXCACTLY WHAT I WAS SAYING! If u read the orginal post, the FIRST LINE says that I do not doubt ninty's games are less than excellent. But why do they take so long? As shigsy admitted about past games, sometimes ninty do not have the technical knowhow to make stuff (the Virtua fighter example in the original post).
Here is the best example though. Remeber Zelda 64 (OOT). If u ever saw the first screens from the first few months, the game was full of fog, no texture and boring landscape. 4 years later, it was a teaming village- individual stone cobbles were visible and there was NO FOG.
However, look at another game that was stretching graphics to the max- Shenmue. Sega went in and immediatly made the graphic engine that looked as good as the finnished game (bar one or 2 changes).
Imagine how many extra months ninty's programmers had to play with the old 3D engine to produce the result, whereas other big manufacturers go straight to the final goal. The final goal being the most amazing game ever... almost flawless, and almost always delayed!
Sonic
> I don't think a lot of you understand. Ninty make excellent games in
> the end, but they are crap at actually programming them.
I have
> always thought this but I didn't want to memntion it because it
> might be ... risky.
Well done for bringing this up.
EXCACTLY WHAT I WAS SAYING! If u read the orginal post, the FIRST LINE says that I do not doubt ninty's games are less than excellent. But why do they take so long? As shigsy admitted about past games, sometimes ninty do not have the technical knowhow to make stuff (the Virtua fighter example in the original post).
Here is the best example though. Remeber Zelda 64 (OOT). If u ever saw the first screens from the first few months, the game was full of fog, no texture and boring landscape. 4 years later, it was a teaming village- individual stone cobbles were visible and there was NO FOG.
However, look at another game that was stretching graphics to the max- Shenmue. Sega went in and immediatly made the graphic engine that looked as good as the finnished game (bar one or 2 changes).
Imagine how many extra months ninty's programmers had to play with the old 3D engine to produce the result, whereas other big manufacturers go straight to the final goal. The final goal being the most amazing game ever... almost flawless, and almost always delayed!
Sonic
Im sure Grix will know he's only joking.
:-)
:-)
I really don't think you should diss the most respected person on FOG
Grix Thraves wrote:
Some of us are much more calm about it though, and truly only believe in the games.
......Ponce!
^_^
Some of us are much more calm about it though, and truly only believe in the games.
......Ponce!
^_^
I'm not so sure. If you're bad at programming games, then surely time is not the only thing you need to make the release good, is it?
Nintendo games, in general, are glitch free (Mario Kart 64 notwithstanding, and all those were only found because so many Japanese were so obsessed with the game). Debugging is the hardest part of programming, so the fact that Nintendo games generally don't have these problems, is a testament to their high standards and skill.
Okay, a monkey at a keyboard with the right software might eventually code Zelda: Ocarina Of Time, but it'd take ages. Nintendo don't work that slowly, considering the number and quality of the titles they put out.
Nintendo games, in general, are glitch free (Mario Kart 64 notwithstanding, and all those were only found because so many Japanese were so obsessed with the game). Debugging is the hardest part of programming, so the fact that Nintendo games generally don't have these problems, is a testament to their high standards and skill.
Okay, a monkey at a keyboard with the right software might eventually code Zelda: Ocarina Of Time, but it'd take ages. Nintendo don't work that slowly, considering the number and quality of the titles they put out.
I don't think a lot of you understand. Ninty make excellent games in the end, but they are crap at actually programming them.
I have always thought this but I didn't want to memntion it because it might be ... risky.
Well done for bringing this up.
I have always thought this but I didn't want to memntion it because it might be ... risky.
Well done for bringing this up.
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