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62 dead is the figure at the moment. I hate hearing about things like this, wherever they are. Nothing can justify ripping through peoples' lives in a supposedly safe environment.
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Skarra wrote:
>
> What would you have him do? Forget about 9/11 and hope the problem
> goes away?
No, go about seeking them out through more peaceful means, not bombing the hell out of a country and detaining people without any lawyers or proof for 2 years.
>
> What would you have him do? Forget about 9/11 and hope the problem
> goes away?
No, go about seeking them out through more peaceful means, not bombing the hell out of a country and detaining people without any lawyers or proof for 2 years.
Well it could well be i wouldn't rule it out.. but we don't need to go into rash decisions yet.
Aparently it's not the ETA but the Palistinians.
Wonder why...
Wonder why...
I am Spanish, from Madrid exactly. I now live in London, but I lived in Madrid since last year. I am sure it was ETA, the basq people who want their own country. They always put bombs in cars and kill many people.
Sadly, one of my friends got injured; two trains away from him exploded.with two bombs. He is now in hospital. I, usually went with him, and if I would have stayed in Spain, I would have got injured too.
I have got Spanish TV here and they are talking about it all the time. It has been the worst terrorist atack in the Spanish history.
There have been already 180 deaths and over 1000 injured people. The bombs exploded in many different Madrid train stations.
Somebody do something to ETA. And by the way, ETA means in Spanish group of terrorists and assassins.
Sadly, one of my friends got injured; two trains away from him exploded.with two bombs. He is now in hospital. I, usually went with him, and if I would have stayed in Spain, I would have got injured too.
I have got Spanish TV here and they are talking about it all the time. It has been the worst terrorist atack in the Spanish history.
There have been already 180 deaths and over 1000 injured people. The bombs exploded in many different Madrid train stations.
Somebody do something to ETA. And by the way, ETA means in Spanish group of terrorists and assassins.
Belldandy wrote:
> Skarra wrote:
> Its not really fair to say that about the German people though is
> it?
> I mean i'm sure if more knew about the death camps and so on, they
> would have opposed Hitler. Even if they had, what could they have
> done, with the SS and the like in place.
>
> Yes it is. Jews were rounded up all over Germany. Jews were forced to
> work for germans and german companies. Even death camps were near
> rural villages and towns. They allowed Hitler in and supported him
> for the most part - it was clear what Hitler thought of the Jews and
> others before he came to power with NO resistance whatsoever. The SS
> was comprised of germans, the massive military was - from all over
> the country. There was no denying what was going on. Maybe people
> chose not to see, or to ignore, but that is no defence.
>
>
To be perfectly honest, one could argue whether all of Germany was 'willingly complicit' with the Nazis and their actions, or rather they were terrified. I've read conflicting sources that say everyone knew what really went on, and others that have Germans being obliviously unaware. What is for sure is that for a large part, Germans in fact unwittingly kept the terror on themselves - the SS was far too small to in fact control Germany in such an iron way as we percieve it now - denounciations were commonplace, because people wanted to deflect attention off any of their 'abnormalities'.
As for seeing what Hitler wanted beforehand, the Nazis did not mention their anti-semitism after the Munich Putsch fiasco until 1933. Even then, they did not instantly start to round them up - a few one day boycotts and then rounding ups, but no mass slaughters - Even on Kristallnacht, Germans hid Jews from the SS! Of course some attacked them, but most were unaware of the 'Great Revenge' being undertaken by 'The People' (i.e Gestapo). The Wannsee conference was in 1942, when the Final Solution was decided upon. True, persecution had started far before then, but not on the same scale as what happened eventually. It is true a lot of people felt this as an acceptable (at least before 1942) price to pay for the revenge against the injustice of 1918 and Weimar, but to say all were willing. There were resistance groups, such as The White Rose, and of about 9 attempts on Hitlers life, all but 2 were during WW2 - but a lot came very early on, even before it was going badly for the German nation.
True, people perhaps could have done more, but the perception of terror does not make them guilty. Obviously there were nasty Germans who really were 'true' Nazis, but then again, what of those who hid Jewish friends? Of those who tried to help them escape? The resistance, no matter how small? A lot of people would have been revolted, but the perception (and to an extent very real) of terror would have kept them quiet - it does not however, imply guilt on their part. To say so incriminates every member of any nation with the blood on the hands of a nations government, no matter what circumstance.
About Japan. True, the bombs were terrible, horrible weapons that ushered in a terrifying age, but the whole of Japan would jave been littered with British, US and Japanese soldiers, not to mention ruined cities and millions of civilians dead.
> Skarra wrote:
> Its not really fair to say that about the German people though is
> it?
> I mean i'm sure if more knew about the death camps and so on, they
> would have opposed Hitler. Even if they had, what could they have
> done, with the SS and the like in place.
>
> Yes it is. Jews were rounded up all over Germany. Jews were forced to
> work for germans and german companies. Even death camps were near
> rural villages and towns. They allowed Hitler in and supported him
> for the most part - it was clear what Hitler thought of the Jews and
> others before he came to power with NO resistance whatsoever. The SS
> was comprised of germans, the massive military was - from all over
> the country. There was no denying what was going on. Maybe people
> chose not to see, or to ignore, but that is no defence.
>
>
To be perfectly honest, one could argue whether all of Germany was 'willingly complicit' with the Nazis and their actions, or rather they were terrified. I've read conflicting sources that say everyone knew what really went on, and others that have Germans being obliviously unaware. What is for sure is that for a large part, Germans in fact unwittingly kept the terror on themselves - the SS was far too small to in fact control Germany in such an iron way as we percieve it now - denounciations were commonplace, because people wanted to deflect attention off any of their 'abnormalities'.
As for seeing what Hitler wanted beforehand, the Nazis did not mention their anti-semitism after the Munich Putsch fiasco until 1933. Even then, they did not instantly start to round them up - a few one day boycotts and then rounding ups, but no mass slaughters - Even on Kristallnacht, Germans hid Jews from the SS! Of course some attacked them, but most were unaware of the 'Great Revenge' being undertaken by 'The People' (i.e Gestapo). The Wannsee conference was in 1942, when the Final Solution was decided upon. True, persecution had started far before then, but not on the same scale as what happened eventually. It is true a lot of people felt this as an acceptable (at least before 1942) price to pay for the revenge against the injustice of 1918 and Weimar, but to say all were willing. There were resistance groups, such as The White Rose, and of about 9 attempts on Hitlers life, all but 2 were during WW2 - but a lot came very early on, even before it was going badly for the German nation.
True, people perhaps could have done more, but the perception of terror does not make them guilty. Obviously there were nasty Germans who really were 'true' Nazis, but then again, what of those who hid Jewish friends? Of those who tried to help them escape? The resistance, no matter how small? A lot of people would have been revolted, but the perception (and to an extent very real) of terror would have kept them quiet - it does not however, imply guilt on their part. To say so incriminates every member of any nation with the blood on the hands of a nations government, no matter what circumstance.
About Japan. True, the bombs were terrible, horrible weapons that ushered in a terrifying age, but the whole of Japan would jave been littered with British, US and Japanese soldiers, not to mention ruined cities and millions of civilians dead.
take your AK and you'll be fine
I'm meant to be going on a massive sports tour in 3 weeks time, over 2000 students are going to Spain...
Having something like this happen 3 weeks before really doesn't make you feel too good about it! Almost as bad as the time I went skiing when the entire airport was full of army people!
Having something like this happen 3 weeks before really doesn't make you feel too good about it! Almost as bad as the time I went skiing when the entire airport was full of army people!
Belldandy wrote:
> Like those Brits they released - if they hadn't been in Afghanistan
> (because I'm sure we all saw 9/11 on the news and thought "hmm I
> think I shall go to Afghanistan soon") in the first place they
> would never have been detained in the first place. Anyone with a
> brain would want to be as far from Afghanistan as they could, and
> would certainly make every attempt to leave the moment the allied
> attack began.
Well you're right there, they were probably up to no good in Afghanistan, and even if they weren't they are very stupid. But you can't put an end to due process and start pointing the finger at those who you suspect. It's becoming a witch-hunt, and it's getting out of hand.
What's the next stage - lock up all the muslims? It's not the way we, being the supposedly most civilised of societies, should be doing. We cannot give way to our fear and paranoia - it will only get worse.
> Like those Brits they released - if they hadn't been in Afghanistan
> (because I'm sure we all saw 9/11 on the news and thought "hmm I
> think I shall go to Afghanistan soon") in the first place they
> would never have been detained in the first place. Anyone with a
> brain would want to be as far from Afghanistan as they could, and
> would certainly make every attempt to leave the moment the allied
> attack began.
Well you're right there, they were probably up to no good in Afghanistan, and even if they weren't they are very stupid. But you can't put an end to due process and start pointing the finger at those who you suspect. It's becoming a witch-hunt, and it's getting out of hand.
What's the next stage - lock up all the muslims? It's not the way we, being the supposedly most civilised of societies, should be doing. We cannot give way to our fear and paranoia - it will only get worse.
I'm sorry but it's a rather large leap to compare the detainment without trial of suspected terrorists to an organised and systematic eradication of millions of people.
Like those Brits they released - if they hadn't been in Afghanistan (because I'm sure we all saw 9/11 on the news and thought "hmm I think I shall go to Afghanistan soon") in the first place they would never have been detained in the first place. Anyone with a brain would want to be as far from Afghanistan as they could, and would certainly make every attempt to leave the moment the allied attack began.
Like those Brits they released - if they hadn't been in Afghanistan (because I'm sure we all saw 9/11 on the news and thought "hmm I think I shall go to Afghanistan soon") in the first place they would never have been detained in the first place. Anyone with a brain would want to be as far from Afghanistan as they could, and would certainly make every attempt to leave the moment the allied attack began.
Also, we're rounding up potential terrorists and imprisoning them, without trial, for crimes they may not even be committing.
I realise we're not executing them, and they are treated better, but it's still an infraction of human rights. In this way, it's no different to the Jewish camps, only on a smaller scale.
I realise we're not executing them, and they are treated better, but it's still an infraction of human rights. In this way, it's no different to the Jewish camps, only on a smaller scale.
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