Viewing Thread:
"Interesting fact - humans aren't free."

We live in a physical world, of physical properties. The physical world is ruled by physical laws. Humans are physical beings, therefore we can never experience freedom.

Ta-da!

Even so, Freedom with no controls is not freedom but anarchy unless you can trust every member of society to behave.

If you define freedom as being able to do anything without limit then noone would ever achieve that, because we all have our own inherent morals and limits to what we will do as people, sure those limits may differ from person to person, but everyone has things they will not do.

For instance, and taking this to an extreme, if I handed someone a gun and told them to shoot someone then chances are they would not because their morals tell them it is wrong. Are they then not living in Freedom, because something has prevented them doing something ?

Freedom by it's nature contains some limits to prevent certain actions.

Interestingly enough I've seen the report on Sky News tonight of an Iraqi who has lived in hiding until no, in a hollowed out wall cavity, never leaving his family's house, for 21 years because he spoke against Saddam and was sentenced to death. He is now vocally expressing his thanks to the coalition for returning his freedom to him.

He may not live in total freedom, but to him it is, and I think it's important to remember that we on this forum, as a group of people who have lived our lives free from opression, war, famine and all the other nasty parts of this world, remember that our idea of Freedom is only of a higher expectations because of the Freedom we have grown up in.

We take it for granted that we can do many things, like protest, speak against the leader of this country, express opinions on anything, worship a religion we chose, love who we want irrespective of gender or race, and not be beaten, tortured or killed for it.

Blank wrote:
> And FFF, I guess your book is a magical fantasy style affair?

You think you're so smart.
You think you got me sussed.
Well let me tell ya something, boyo ..... you have. Mostly.

Drat.

HALO Fan wrote:
> The hard part for many people is recognising freedom from anarchy.
> Freedom isn't about living with no laws, that is anarchy.

But laws restrict what you can and cannot do - is that not a restriction of freedom? The phrase "you can do anything you like, within limits" is meaningless, it's basic meaning is that you can't do anything you like. If we are free within our society or within our physical realm, then a prisoner is free, simply free within the boundaries of his cell.


I too like the idea of magic or some alternate realities, because they do seem a lot more exciting - then again, if you had been born into that life, it would be the norm, and not as exciting any more. I think you'd have to experience both to really appreciate it.

And FFF, I guess your book is a magical fantasy style affair?

DébUK wrote:
> FinalFantasyFanatic wrote:
>
> The real world is really dull, when you think about it.
>
> There are lots of really interesting thoughts in this thread, and well
> done to Blank for an interesting post!
>
> Firstly, I would disagree that the real world is dull. I find life,
> and the real world very exciting! It sounds cheesy, but whilst
> everyone else in my class was grinding their teeth and cursing whilst
> being 'subjected' to Wordsworth's perception of the world, I was
> totally enthralled!
>
> Wordsworth's idea was freedom was being in tune with nature, but in my
> opinion that is the situation where we are the least free! Nature
> controls us. Nature can knock us dead with one lightning bolt, or kill
> us with cancer. Therefore, I believe we can never truly experience
> physical freedom.
>
> Where freedom exists is in the abstract, psychological experience of
> being free.

I'd have to agree, there.
What I really meant is the world is quite dull in comparison to places born of people's imaginations.
I suppose people's own views on the world and their lives within it can make it seem dull - if you're working in some crummy office for pennies all your life, then you'll think the world's a dull and boring place.

I totally insist on me not doing this.
I'm writing a book at the moment - if I get that published I'd be over the moon. That'd mean an interesting life.
And I plan to be a games designer - I've already got loads of ideas down for games and am in the process of developing them right now. Just struck upon a great idea yesterday, as it happens.
If I get these things done (well) then i'm sure I'll think the world's a damn fine place to live in and experience.

But you can't deny things like magic are amazing ideas, which would really bring a world to life - making ours seems a pretty dull place.
Then there's the technology aspect of everything - we're developing at a starting rate. Sooner or later something really big's gonna happen, I'm sure, which will turn the world on it's head and our views of it - give it a new lease of life and make it seem an facinating and rich world to live in.

FinalFantasyFanatic wrote:

> The real world is really dull, when you think about it.

There are lots of really interesting thoughts in this thread, and well done to Blank for an interesting post!

Firstly, I would disagree that the real world is dull. I find life, and the real world very exciting! It sounds cheesy, but whilst everyone else in my class was grinding their teeth and cursing whilst being 'subjected' to Wordsworth's perception of the world, I was totally enthralled!

Wordsworth's idea was freedom was being in tune with nature, but in my opinion that is the situation where we are the least free! Nature controls us. Nature can knock us dead with one lightning bolt, or kill us with cancer. Therefore, I believe we can never truly experience physical freedom.

Where freedom exists is in the abstract, psychological experience of being free.

I quite like the idea of magic existing as well, some believe it already does and that utilising it is simply believing in it strongly enough.

I certainly think there is more to this world than what we can see with our own eyes in plain sight.

I live where I want.
Right now, I'm coasting round the edge of the universe.

The real world is really dull, when you think about it. Probably why I'm into my fantasy (of a non-sexual kind) - I like the idea of magic and all that. Imagine how much more interesting a world would be if something like magic existed.
Although, I fear, a world like that would quickly be destroyed by those inhabiting it. Maybe once the world acts together for everyone else's interests, to better ourselves and our world, become one nation in peace - then something will be unlocked and magic bestowed upon us, in the knowledge it would be used for good.

*Rambles further*

Blank wrote:
> But we can never reach freedom - the statement "I want to be
> free" is about as much use as the statement "I want to be a
> caterpillar".

Freedom means different things to different people, whereas a caterpillar only has one meaning. "I want to be free" is a powerful statement if the person or people saying it has the strength of conviction to back it up. Doesn't matter what anyone does, they cannot be a caterpillar, but people can be free.

The hard part for many people is recognising freedom from anarchy. Freedom isn't about living with no laws, that is anarchy.

HALO Fan wrote:
> Freedom is an idea, an aspiration, an ideal.

But we can never reach freedom - the statement "I want to be free" is about as much use as the statement "I want to be a caterpillar".

BEARDS. wrote:
> You assume that the physical world is the real one. How dull.

The physical world as opposed to the mental one? The mental can be reduced to the physical, the same principle stands.