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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/ middle_east/2396613.stm
And so ends the careers of the USS Cole bombers....CNN and Fox also have confirmed that these were the guys responsible.
They took lives, and now they have been stopped.
~~Belldandy~~
And so ends the careers of the USS Cole bombers....CNN and Fox also have confirmed that these were the guys responsible.
They took lives, and now they have been stopped.
~~Belldandy~~
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Pontificus maximus.
Goatboy wrote:
> I can't say who's right and wrong.
> I do know that slamming planes into buildings is wrong. But I also
> know that using CIA trained and funded death squads in El Salvador is
> wrong.
>
> I dont see the difference.
Well I think I can.
To me the difference is in the people behind those who commit such actions and their reasons. Like Rosalind said, those guys in that car were terrorists, they'd hit the USS Cole and were planning more attacks. The CIA elminated them believing that without them they'd be on step closer to a better future. I can't argue with that. CIA Death Squads ? Same thing as the SAS Nemesis teams in Ireland. They commit actions many find unpalatable, but if those actions are committed with the right reasons in mind then I don't see the problem.
Okay, you can argue that to Al Queda their actions are for the right reasons to, but Al Queda's reasons are not acceptable or shared by many.
A week ago a US Embassy member in the Middle East (I forget which country) was shot and killed in his car by terrorists as he went to work. Can Al Queda justify that ? I mean, even if you use there own logic, killing him does not degrade the ability of the US an her allies to hit AL Queda, yet the missile strike on that car further degraded AL Queda's ability to hit the US.
Peace is not just the absence of war.
~~Belldandy~~
> I can't say who's right and wrong.
> I do know that slamming planes into buildings is wrong. But I also
> know that using CIA trained and funded death squads in El Salvador is
> wrong.
>
> I dont see the difference.
Well I think I can.
To me the difference is in the people behind those who commit such actions and their reasons. Like Rosalind said, those guys in that car were terrorists, they'd hit the USS Cole and were planning more attacks. The CIA elminated them believing that without them they'd be on step closer to a better future. I can't argue with that. CIA Death Squads ? Same thing as the SAS Nemesis teams in Ireland. They commit actions many find unpalatable, but if those actions are committed with the right reasons in mind then I don't see the problem.
Okay, you can argue that to Al Queda their actions are for the right reasons to, but Al Queda's reasons are not acceptable or shared by many.
A week ago a US Embassy member in the Middle East (I forget which country) was shot and killed in his car by terrorists as he went to work. Can Al Queda justify that ? I mean, even if you use there own logic, killing him does not degrade the ability of the US an her allies to hit AL Queda, yet the missile strike on that car further degraded AL Queda's ability to hit the US.
Peace is not just the absence of war.
~~Belldandy~~
Bill Hicks springs to mind with that idea:
"Not all drugs are good. Some of 'em....are great"
"Not all drugs are good. Some of 'em....are great"
Goatboy wrote:
> ---
> I've got my 10 acres of Moon.
> I just need to figure out how to get there.
It will take a long time on your bike..
>
> I find myself in the position of being an idealist, I honestly wish
> there was another way to put a stop to one group thinking the only way
> to resolve a matter is to use weapons and fear.
Lets get everyone round the table and hand out the spliffs.
A good old bit of love and peace.
Bring back the good old hippy 60's (Less the cold war of course!)
> ---
> I've got my 10 acres of Moon.
> I just need to figure out how to get there.
It will take a long time on your bike..
>
> I find myself in the position of being an idealist, I honestly wish
> there was another way to put a stop to one group thinking the only way
> to resolve a matter is to use weapons and fear.
Lets get everyone round the table and hand out the spliffs.
A good old bit of love and peace.
Bring back the good old hippy 60's (Less the cold war of course!)
Slightly off topic.
We are not bad because bad actions have been carried out in the name of our country.
I am not responsible for The crusades, the problems in Ireland, India and Isreal, and all the other s****y stuff that has been done in the name of this country.
So why do I feel guilty?
We are not bad because bad actions have been carried out in the name of our country.
I am not responsible for The crusades, the problems in Ireland, India and Isreal, and all the other s****y stuff that has been done in the name of this country.
So why do I feel guilty?
Flanders wrote:
> We want to be able to live happily and in peace and we can't, unless
> we move to some remote island somewhere - preferably one not used by
> the French for Nuke testing..
---
I've got my 10 acres of Moon.
I just need to figure out how to get there.
And you're right, my argument here is not to do with the punishment of those responsible for terrorism, I fully support Belldandy's notion of ending it without hesitation or question.
I find myself in the position of being an idealist, I honestly wish there was another way to put a stop to one group thinking the only way to resolve a matter is to use weapons and fear.
But my main point is the one of perception.
The West acts in similar ways, and that doesn't sit with me either.
I no more support Al Queda and the actions of Sept 11th than I support The French Secret Service sinking The Rainbow Warrior.
Violent action begats violent action. It's an endless cycle. The only way to remove the threat of terrorism, on *all* sides, is to educate and fix the reasons for terrorism.
It's not enough to simply blow up everyone involved, because whilst the roots are still there then it will continue.
It will take more than eradicating Al Queda, it will also take a fundamental change in how The West thinks/treats and acts towards The Middle East.
At the end of the day, I just dont know. All I can do is state my opinion in the vague hope somebody, somewhere may listen.
I just dont know and it frustrates me beyond belief.
> We want to be able to live happily and in peace and we can't, unless
> we move to some remote island somewhere - preferably one not used by
> the French for Nuke testing..
---
I've got my 10 acres of Moon.
I just need to figure out how to get there.
And you're right, my argument here is not to do with the punishment of those responsible for terrorism, I fully support Belldandy's notion of ending it without hesitation or question.
I find myself in the position of being an idealist, I honestly wish there was another way to put a stop to one group thinking the only way to resolve a matter is to use weapons and fear.
But my main point is the one of perception.
The West acts in similar ways, and that doesn't sit with me either.
I no more support Al Queda and the actions of Sept 11th than I support The French Secret Service sinking The Rainbow Warrior.
Violent action begats violent action. It's an endless cycle. The only way to remove the threat of terrorism, on *all* sides, is to educate and fix the reasons for terrorism.
It's not enough to simply blow up everyone involved, because whilst the roots are still there then it will continue.
It will take more than eradicating Al Queda, it will also take a fundamental change in how The West thinks/treats and acts towards The Middle East.
At the end of the day, I just dont know. All I can do is state my opinion in the vague hope somebody, somewhere may listen.
I just dont know and it frustrates me beyond belief.
I'm calm.
I realised it's not worth getting heated on an internet forum.
Belldandy has his views, I have mine.
We can go toe to toe forever and it won't make a lick of difference either way.
I realised it's not worth getting heated on an internet forum.
Belldandy has his views, I have mine.
We can go toe to toe forever and it won't make a lick of difference either way.
Goatboy wrote:
> I'm on nobodies side except my own, trying not to get blown up from
> either direction.
After spending the time to read through all of this and basically finding myself having to agree with Goaty what he is saying to Belldandy in here - the argument seemed to get round to one of basically Goaty trying to get the point over to Belldandy that there is no problem in agreeing to differ.
Crikeys - if the politicians, fundamentalists, terrorists etc could take that attitude then the world would be a wonderful place - the problems come when we can't sit round a table and say "Ok I understand what you are saying but it doesn't sit right with me - lets leave it at that and get on with our own lives"
Getting to the bit Goaty wrote above. This is the problem we are all in - we are in the U.K. because that is where we were born. We had no choice in the matter and we want to go around our daily lives without having to fear that our politicians are going to do something to endanger us. Ultimately we have absolutely no say in the matter and if we did get nuked or attacked by some biological weapon or other, at the end of the day - It's not our fault. It's down to those power hungry monkeys in Whitehall, and that is the fear we leave in - that we are ultimately not in total control of our lives.
We want to be able to live happily and in peace and we can't, unless we move to some remote island somewhere - preferably one not used by the French for Nuke testing..
> I'm on nobodies side except my own, trying not to get blown up from
> either direction.
After spending the time to read through all of this and basically finding myself having to agree with Goaty what he is saying to Belldandy in here - the argument seemed to get round to one of basically Goaty trying to get the point over to Belldandy that there is no problem in agreeing to differ.
Crikeys - if the politicians, fundamentalists, terrorists etc could take that attitude then the world would be a wonderful place - the problems come when we can't sit round a table and say "Ok I understand what you are saying but it doesn't sit right with me - lets leave it at that and get on with our own lives"
Getting to the bit Goaty wrote above. This is the problem we are all in - we are in the U.K. because that is where we were born. We had no choice in the matter and we want to go around our daily lives without having to fear that our politicians are going to do something to endanger us. Ultimately we have absolutely no say in the matter and if we did get nuked or attacked by some biological weapon or other, at the end of the day - It's not our fault. It's down to those power hungry monkeys in Whitehall, and that is the fear we leave in - that we are ultimately not in total control of our lives.
We want to be able to live happily and in peace and we can't, unless we move to some remote island somewhere - preferably one not used by the French for Nuke testing..
Rosalind, you preacher you.
Anyway. Calm down you guys.
Anyway. Calm down you guys.
Just to have my two cents worth, While I feel sorry that lives have been lost even if thoses lives were of terrorists, I cannot wholly condem the USA for taking those lives if they thought that there was a threat to the lives of Americans.
What I am trying to say is, while Goatboy appears to be against the killing of the terrorists, I think that if these men were in fact the men behind terrorist attacks (I understand that these weren't the Sept 11th attacks), and are known to be still active, then America (although I won't say were right) have a reason to stop that activity. It is shame that thoses men couldn't be brought to justice in a conventional way.
Having said that. I do think that Belldandy although he has relevant points, is very blinkered in his views. Belldandy, you seem to have an attitude of this this is my opinion this is the correct opinon, I will not consider anyone elses opinon. Your opinon is not the correct one simply because it is yours, as my opinon is not either. You need to take on board the fact that others differ from the way you think. You may even find that your opinon can be changed by a better argument as mine has from time to time. This does not make you less of a person, rather more of a person.
blah blah blah
I've preached at you for too long now. I'll shut up. Its not like I have anything useful to say anyway.
What I am trying to say is, while Goatboy appears to be against the killing of the terrorists, I think that if these men were in fact the men behind terrorist attacks (I understand that these weren't the Sept 11th attacks), and are known to be still active, then America (although I won't say were right) have a reason to stop that activity. It is shame that thoses men couldn't be brought to justice in a conventional way.
Having said that. I do think that Belldandy although he has relevant points, is very blinkered in his views. Belldandy, you seem to have an attitude of this this is my opinion this is the correct opinon, I will not consider anyone elses opinon. Your opinon is not the correct one simply because it is yours, as my opinon is not either. You need to take on board the fact that others differ from the way you think. You may even find that your opinon can be changed by a better argument as mine has from time to time. This does not make you less of a person, rather more of a person.
blah blah blah
I've preached at you for too long now. I'll shut up. Its not like I have anything useful to say anyway.
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