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Religion
===========
Religion isn't going anywhere. Science is. Over time, science will either prove religion to be accurate or otherwise. Ipso Facto, the answers to the questions such as the origin of mankind can be suggested by either side today, but will only ever be PROVEN by science.
Evolution.
============
Who cares? Even if the evolution theory is correct, you'll be long dead before anyone can show you evolution in motion. It's a process which takes millions of years. Tens of thousands of your life spans. Science can offer no more accurate answer, and religion's alternate is there if you want it. Take one or the other and shut up.
Miracles
============
Any fool who's done statistics in maths can tell you that very few things are impossible, improbable perhaps, but not beyond the realms of possibility. Someone gets 2millions volts thrown through his body, falls down a cliff, only to be knocked down by a car, found rolling down a hill, over an edge into rocky, shark infested waters, and is then washed up three days later - alive. This isn't a miracle, it's just being magnificently lucky, since for each of those accidents, there is a chance of survival, so surely basic maths dictates that there is a chance that you can survive them all in succession. If anything that wasn't likely instantly became impossible, imagine what a foolish endeavor playing the national lottery would be - you know you can never win, but you play anyway. How stupid?
That's all for now, I shall continue my lessons in "common sense from given knowns to combat hysteria" later.
People arguing science is correct - you are wrong, since much of what science dictates is conjecture, hypothesis, and not proven.
People arguing that religion is correct - you are wrong, since much of what religion dictates i open to interpretation to offer answers to anything, offers little actual fact, on the basis you accept it's "truths" on faith, and were for the most part written up in an age where the only thing divine was the degree of human ignorance.
Have a nice day.
IB
===========
Religion isn't going anywhere. Science is. Over time, science will either prove religion to be accurate or otherwise. Ipso Facto, the answers to the questions such as the origin of mankind can be suggested by either side today, but will only ever be PROVEN by science.
Evolution.
============
Who cares? Even if the evolution theory is correct, you'll be long dead before anyone can show you evolution in motion. It's a process which takes millions of years. Tens of thousands of your life spans. Science can offer no more accurate answer, and religion's alternate is there if you want it. Take one or the other and shut up.
Miracles
============
Any fool who's done statistics in maths can tell you that very few things are impossible, improbable perhaps, but not beyond the realms of possibility. Someone gets 2millions volts thrown through his body, falls down a cliff, only to be knocked down by a car, found rolling down a hill, over an edge into rocky, shark infested waters, and is then washed up three days later - alive. This isn't a miracle, it's just being magnificently lucky, since for each of those accidents, there is a chance of survival, so surely basic maths dictates that there is a chance that you can survive them all in succession. If anything that wasn't likely instantly became impossible, imagine what a foolish endeavor playing the national lottery would be - you know you can never win, but you play anyway. How stupid?
That's all for now, I shall continue my lessons in "common sense from given knowns to combat hysteria" later.
People arguing science is correct - you are wrong, since much of what science dictates is conjecture, hypothesis, and not proven.
People arguing that religion is correct - you are wrong, since much of what religion dictates i open to interpretation to offer answers to anything, offers little actual fact, on the basis you accept it's "truths" on faith, and were for the most part written up in an age where the only thing divine was the degree of human ignorance.
Have a nice day.
IB
Page:
Good post Bartender, but if you want some very, very interesting insights into religion (for example, the old Testimant is about 90% fact- Exodus, the great flood and the selling of the nation of Israel tto the Pharoah are all true) take a look in the Science vs. Religion topic. To add to this topic...
Insane Bartender wrote:
> Religion
> ===========
>
> Religion isn't going anywhere. Science is. Over time, science will
> either prove religion to be accurate or otherwise.
I strongly disagree with that. Science cannot ever prove religion to be accurate! Religion is, for the most part, a belief in God. How do you expect to prove that? The Catholic Church (I mention that one because it is the most centralised of all the major religions), now happily embraces all scientific theories- everything from evolution to the big bang has no bearing on the teachings of the Church. The underlying point is that religion is the pusuit of spiritual enlightenment and philosophical answers (why are we here? etc). Science is the pursuit of provable knowledge. The 2 are completely different, but certainly not incompatable. (Oh, and no, you didn't say that they were incompatable, but I'm sure someone who replies will say that!).
Ipso Facto, the
> answers to the questions such as the origin of mankind can be
> suggested by either side today, but will only ever be PROVEN by
> science.
On the contrary, the Catholic Church does not disagree with any scientific theory for, say, the beginning of human life. The passage about God "inventing" man in Genesis has been declared to be saying that humanity began when God gave us an imortal soul (all other animals have a mortal soul). Now, this does not disagree with evolution, nor any other human creation theory, and can NEVER be proved wrong- can you show me that you DON'T have a soul?
>
>
> Evolution.
> ============
>
> Who cares? Even if the evolution theory is correct, you'll be long
> dead before anyone can show you evolution in motion. It's a process
> which takes millions of years. Tens of thousands of your life spans.
> Science can offer no more accurate answer, and religion's alternate is
> there if you want it. Take one or the other and shut up.
Well put, but it depends on the religion you follow! As I just said, Catholisism embraces science. Other religions are more strict...
>
> Miracles
> ============
>
Well, I am indeed a "fool" sho does not just Maths, but Triple Maths and a few STEP papers on the side!
Indeed, every "miricle" that I've seen in a newspaper is clearly a result of statistcal distributions on large populations. Just to go off on a tangent, it's just been proven that athletic records are NOT broken because athletes are better, but because the laws of chance means that the variablity of their achievement means that, given enough races, they'll beat the record eventually!
Back to the point, and most miracles in the bible have been said by the church to be common sense. For example, if you read the tale of Christ feeding the thousands of people on the mount with only 5 fish, it says no such thing! You could just as easily interpret the original manuscripts to say that Christ "fed" them KNOWLEDGE- the feeding was done because everyone actually brought their own food and water (do you think people would be so stupid to travel without it in those days?).
> People arguing science is correct - you are wrong, since much of what
> science dictates is conjecture, hypothesis, and not proven.
Indeed, you cannot prove a single thing you've learnt in Physics. EITHER:
*the proof is based on the manipulation of mathematical formulas, in which case it can be proven that mathematics cannot be proven to be self consistent. Hence we could find one day that maths collapses after it can be showed that 1+1 is 3 using some complex formualas. Hence you need FAITH to be a scientist! If all you have is proof you have nothing, because nothing is provable in this manner.
*You prove by experimentation. However, this is not proof. For example, the brownian effect is "proved" by putting a pollen grain on water, at which point it goes in zig zags, showing it to be colliding with water molecules. But this is proving nothing- only supporting a pretty sensible theory. For all we know, the pollen could be a very small monkey in a ball that moves because the mokey wants to! Alternatively, if ONE experiment is done where the pollen doesn't move, then the whole theory collapses. Either way, you must have some faith in the experiment.
Hence science is NEVER 100% PROOF- you need faith.
> People arguing that religion is correct - you are wrong, since much of
> what religion dictates i open to interpretation...
Exactly right. Personally, I see religion as an important way to explore philosophy- something that science can never do. However, to explore tangible science you need science (if that makes sense). The 2 should always go hand-in-hand.
> Have a nice day.
Thankyou- with my last exam tomorrow (STEP 2), I should be enjoying myself this time 2moro night!
Sonic
Insane Bartender wrote:
> Religion
> ===========
>
> Religion isn't going anywhere. Science is. Over time, science will
> either prove religion to be accurate or otherwise.
I strongly disagree with that. Science cannot ever prove religion to be accurate! Religion is, for the most part, a belief in God. How do you expect to prove that? The Catholic Church (I mention that one because it is the most centralised of all the major religions), now happily embraces all scientific theories- everything from evolution to the big bang has no bearing on the teachings of the Church. The underlying point is that religion is the pusuit of spiritual enlightenment and philosophical answers (why are we here? etc). Science is the pursuit of provable knowledge. The 2 are completely different, but certainly not incompatable. (Oh, and no, you didn't say that they were incompatable, but I'm sure someone who replies will say that!).
Ipso Facto, the
> answers to the questions such as the origin of mankind can be
> suggested by either side today, but will only ever be PROVEN by
> science.
On the contrary, the Catholic Church does not disagree with any scientific theory for, say, the beginning of human life. The passage about God "inventing" man in Genesis has been declared to be saying that humanity began when God gave us an imortal soul (all other animals have a mortal soul). Now, this does not disagree with evolution, nor any other human creation theory, and can NEVER be proved wrong- can you show me that you DON'T have a soul?
>
>
> Evolution.
> ============
>
> Who cares? Even if the evolution theory is correct, you'll be long
> dead before anyone can show you evolution in motion. It's a process
> which takes millions of years. Tens of thousands of your life spans.
> Science can offer no more accurate answer, and religion's alternate is
> there if you want it. Take one or the other and shut up.
Well put, but it depends on the religion you follow! As I just said, Catholisism embraces science. Other religions are more strict...
>
> Miracles
> ============
>
Well, I am indeed a "fool" sho does not just Maths, but Triple Maths and a few STEP papers on the side!
Indeed, every "miricle" that I've seen in a newspaper is clearly a result of statistcal distributions on large populations. Just to go off on a tangent, it's just been proven that athletic records are NOT broken because athletes are better, but because the laws of chance means that the variablity of their achievement means that, given enough races, they'll beat the record eventually!
Back to the point, and most miracles in the bible have been said by the church to be common sense. For example, if you read the tale of Christ feeding the thousands of people on the mount with only 5 fish, it says no such thing! You could just as easily interpret the original manuscripts to say that Christ "fed" them KNOWLEDGE- the feeding was done because everyone actually brought their own food and water (do you think people would be so stupid to travel without it in those days?).
> People arguing science is correct - you are wrong, since much of what
> science dictates is conjecture, hypothesis, and not proven.
Indeed, you cannot prove a single thing you've learnt in Physics. EITHER:
*the proof is based on the manipulation of mathematical formulas, in which case it can be proven that mathematics cannot be proven to be self consistent. Hence we could find one day that maths collapses after it can be showed that 1+1 is 3 using some complex formualas. Hence you need FAITH to be a scientist! If all you have is proof you have nothing, because nothing is provable in this manner.
*You prove by experimentation. However, this is not proof. For example, the brownian effect is "proved" by putting a pollen grain on water, at which point it goes in zig zags, showing it to be colliding with water molecules. But this is proving nothing- only supporting a pretty sensible theory. For all we know, the pollen could be a very small monkey in a ball that moves because the mokey wants to! Alternatively, if ONE experiment is done where the pollen doesn't move, then the whole theory collapses. Either way, you must have some faith in the experiment.
Hence science is NEVER 100% PROOF- you need faith.
> People arguing that religion is correct - you are wrong, since much of
> what religion dictates i open to interpretation...
Exactly right. Personally, I see religion as an important way to explore philosophy- something that science can never do. However, to explore tangible science you need science (if that makes sense). The 2 should always go hand-in-hand.
> Have a nice day.
Thankyou- with my last exam tomorrow (STEP 2), I should be enjoying myself this time 2moro night!
Sonic
One of the strongest arguments for a God existing, is that there isn't really an argument against him/she/it. Big Bang? God could have done it. Why isn't everyone happy? People don't make God happy.
And I'm not sure if I believe in God....
And I'm not sure if I believe in God....
Hooplah wrote:
> You are right though, no matter what evidence is presented to some
> people, they will still have their faith. Do you consider your faith
> to be 'Unshakeable'??
Yeah, I would. Haven't really had any really tough times apart from a horribly embarrasing and heart-breaking rejection, but I'm a nervous kind of guy and no matter how bad life is, I still believe in him and know there's a reason for everything.
> You are right though, no matter what evidence is presented to some
> people, they will still have their faith. Do you consider your faith
> to be 'Unshakeable'??
Yeah, I would. Haven't really had any really tough times apart from a horribly embarrasing and heart-breaking rejection, but I'm a nervous kind of guy and no matter how bad life is, I still believe in him and know there's a reason for everything.
We all like boobs.
I like boobs
Ant wrote:
> How can you be sure of that? You haven't believed in God all your life
> and then suddenly there is proof. In fact, there's proof around now. I
> would say just look around you and at the human race for proof, but
> you'd probably just ignore me. {:)
That's exactly right Ant. You have the proof that you need to believe that there is a God, I do not have that proof yet. As a scientist I tend to require a more tangible type of evidence to convince me that something is real. As to what that evidence would have to be, I'm not too sure. I would have to assume that If I was in God's presence I would realise it - perhaps if he moved 'less mysteriously' as a deity I and, no doubt a few others would find it a bit easier to be convinced. ;0)
Yes I can look around at the human race and, in most instances I am dismayed by the apathy and ignorance of the general populace. For the most part, religious people live good lives, but they can be just as ignorant, biased and blinkered as the rest of us. In my view, it is quite possible to lead a good life whilst maintaining an open mind about the why's and wherefore's of a God. I don't think it would be too nice of God to gift the human race with freewill, then punish them for exercising that God given right. I'm not talking murdering rapists here, just people going about there lives without God - but without sin. Do you think that atheism warrants eternal damnation?
> But don't be so sure that you'd just suddenly believe, and then say
> that Christians wouldn't...
>
> Okay, I wouldn't, but that's because I already have all the proof I
> need, and science will never disprove God anyway. {:)
Thanks for making my point for me! ;0)
You are right though, no matter what evidence is presented to some people, they will still have their faith. Do you consider your faith to be 'Unshakeable'??
> How can you be sure of that? You haven't believed in God all your life
> and then suddenly there is proof. In fact, there's proof around now. I
> would say just look around you and at the human race for proof, but
> you'd probably just ignore me. {:)
That's exactly right Ant. You have the proof that you need to believe that there is a God, I do not have that proof yet. As a scientist I tend to require a more tangible type of evidence to convince me that something is real. As to what that evidence would have to be, I'm not too sure. I would have to assume that If I was in God's presence I would realise it - perhaps if he moved 'less mysteriously' as a deity I and, no doubt a few others would find it a bit easier to be convinced. ;0)
Yes I can look around at the human race and, in most instances I am dismayed by the apathy and ignorance of the general populace. For the most part, religious people live good lives, but they can be just as ignorant, biased and blinkered as the rest of us. In my view, it is quite possible to lead a good life whilst maintaining an open mind about the why's and wherefore's of a God. I don't think it would be too nice of God to gift the human race with freewill, then punish them for exercising that God given right. I'm not talking murdering rapists here, just people going about there lives without God - but without sin. Do you think that atheism warrants eternal damnation?
> But don't be so sure that you'd just suddenly believe, and then say
> that Christians wouldn't...
>
> Okay, I wouldn't, but that's because I already have all the proof I
> need, and science will never disprove God anyway. {:)
Thanks for making my point for me! ;0)
You are right though, no matter what evidence is presented to some people, they will still have their faith. Do you consider your faith to be 'Unshakeable'??
Lol
I just managed to keep the tea in my mouth when I read that :-)
I just managed to keep the tea in my mouth when I read that :-)
He better not write it on my 10 acres of moon
I'll punch him in the balls.
I'll punch him in the balls.
Goaty - Rock and Roll was the answer for me for plenty of years and I still love bashing out the old tunes on my favourite Strat.
IB - You are indeed a wise man. As you said in the title, the debates are folly ridden as Irrefutable evidence carved in stone will never be available for all to see at the same time. Unless of course God carves "I woz ere" on the surface of the moon ;-)
IB - You are indeed a wise man. As you said in the title, the debates are folly ridden as Irrefutable evidence carved in stone will never be available for all to see at the same time. Unless of course God carves "I woz ere" on the surface of the moon ;-)
Since I lack the capacity to effectively share your experiences, they're probably better left unsaid. I know only that I don't have the answers, and that at some point science or religion or both will present them to me.
Until then, I'm sitting on the fence. Just leaning over to one side a little.
Until then, I'm sitting on the fence. Just leaning over to one side a little.
Page: