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Fancy reading a post from an extremist Nintendo fan over the issue of hardware? Of course you do, this place would be so empty without me (Eminem begins to rap but is promptly shot by Limp Bizkit), and so time to be very biased, opinonistic and argumentative… just as you like it. A recent post from Turbonutter stated the reasons the “Dual Shock” Playstation 2 controller was superior to the Gamecube’s, yet his arguments were simply facts, stuff written on paper, he didn’t comment on the differences in size for buttons, change in the R and L buttons or the additional comfort the controller presents, it isn’t as simple as facts and figures. And this applies similarly to the hardware (I won’t go back over the controller issue), technically the X-box is the superior system, and the Playstation 2 improves over some parts of Cube, but as I say it isn’t that simple.
The major difference being who made the hardware, you can argue till the cows come home over the superior X-box technology but then it isn’t that amazing, it isn’t easily pulled off (they say it is but I can guarantee no one can max out the X-box specification limit) and it is designed by hardware experts. I’m not saying the Gamecube’s hardware wasn’t designed by experts but in fact a different sort. The best sound system devised for the N64 was set up by a company called Factor 5, a company owned by Lucas Arts that make exclusive Star Wars games for Nintendo (Rogue Leader). There talent with sound is evident from the titles they produce and they designed the tools and sound system for the Gamecube, MusyX. Now did a 3rd party developer design the sound interior to the X-box and Playstation 2? No, in fact some may argue a far superior company did and you maybe right, the sound quality may be better on the PS2 but then it was never designed for the developer, it was designed to be the best, not the easiest to use or implement unlike MusyX, which was designed by a developing house who have experience with sound and know full well how it should be done. And with the controller (ok so I lied) it is designed by Shiguru Miyamoto, who knows about the gaming world and how they should be played and in the best way possible (just look at his games), but the PS2’s pad was designed with many functions but there was nothing about the games themselves that caused certain ways of laying out the pad it was done by some guy who makes hardware thinking I know I’ll have two analogue sticks, in built rumble and analogue buttons and lay it out symmetrically, when in fact this is the wrong way to go about it. His/hers experience with making, designing and playing were evidently little as him/her didn’t do anything clever with the pad to make it more enjoyable to use they kept it very bland just so gamers won’t mind it and developers can use it easily… yet the Cube’s one was designed from a designers point of view (and the worlds best at that) and so everything was done from a perfect insight to the gaming world unlike the PS2 and X-box (the X-box in fact used gamers themselves but still didn’t get it right).
Sony has a particular advantage over format, DVD’s are partially Sony’s invention and so they do know how to make the format games are made on. They may be kicking themselves in the teeth with their own success, the popularity of DVD’s enable easy piracy (soon enough). And so Nintendo handed it over to Panasonic a company who are just as much experts as Sony and happen to be developing there own brand of DVD. And I’ll quote something said by a Sony fan playing on the Cube:
“Smart! Midi disc technology”
It was enough to make me smile, reducing loading times, combating piracy, looking smart, reducing console size, introducing new technology into the mainstream market and ok there size isn’t as large as a DVD but in the world of disc gaming that is completely unimportant no matter what Turbonutter says. It is a futuristic new gaming device, which I would love to see more frequently used next time as opposed to DVD’s. So whilst all those others claim to be the best, in reality Nintendo’s Gamecube is a far superior console. Yep it doesn’t look good down on paper but then all this flipper technology, new format, the console being designed by the developer effectively makes it the developers choice.
And with that in mind many many games can and will be done on the Gamecube due to its cleverly designed infrastructure that could never be done on the PS2 or X-box. Whilst PS2 gamers are waiting for Sony and co. to produce anything like that Tekken Demo used to show the console off, Gamecube gamers are playing Pikmin which surpasses what Gamecube’s 128 Mario’s demo did. Just bare that in mind when claiming the Gamecube’s inferiority to other consoles, it is never that simple. And now I wait for Turbonutter to turn up and disagree.
Here’s to the future.
Dringo.
The major difference being who made the hardware, you can argue till the cows come home over the superior X-box technology but then it isn’t that amazing, it isn’t easily pulled off (they say it is but I can guarantee no one can max out the X-box specification limit) and it is designed by hardware experts. I’m not saying the Gamecube’s hardware wasn’t designed by experts but in fact a different sort. The best sound system devised for the N64 was set up by a company called Factor 5, a company owned by Lucas Arts that make exclusive Star Wars games for Nintendo (Rogue Leader). There talent with sound is evident from the titles they produce and they designed the tools and sound system for the Gamecube, MusyX. Now did a 3rd party developer design the sound interior to the X-box and Playstation 2? No, in fact some may argue a far superior company did and you maybe right, the sound quality may be better on the PS2 but then it was never designed for the developer, it was designed to be the best, not the easiest to use or implement unlike MusyX, which was designed by a developing house who have experience with sound and know full well how it should be done. And with the controller (ok so I lied) it is designed by Shiguru Miyamoto, who knows about the gaming world and how they should be played and in the best way possible (just look at his games), but the PS2’s pad was designed with many functions but there was nothing about the games themselves that caused certain ways of laying out the pad it was done by some guy who makes hardware thinking I know I’ll have two analogue sticks, in built rumble and analogue buttons and lay it out symmetrically, when in fact this is the wrong way to go about it. His/hers experience with making, designing and playing were evidently little as him/her didn’t do anything clever with the pad to make it more enjoyable to use they kept it very bland just so gamers won’t mind it and developers can use it easily… yet the Cube’s one was designed from a designers point of view (and the worlds best at that) and so everything was done from a perfect insight to the gaming world unlike the PS2 and X-box (the X-box in fact used gamers themselves but still didn’t get it right).
Sony has a particular advantage over format, DVD’s are partially Sony’s invention and so they do know how to make the format games are made on. They may be kicking themselves in the teeth with their own success, the popularity of DVD’s enable easy piracy (soon enough). And so Nintendo handed it over to Panasonic a company who are just as much experts as Sony and happen to be developing there own brand of DVD. And I’ll quote something said by a Sony fan playing on the Cube:
“Smart! Midi disc technology”
It was enough to make me smile, reducing loading times, combating piracy, looking smart, reducing console size, introducing new technology into the mainstream market and ok there size isn’t as large as a DVD but in the world of disc gaming that is completely unimportant no matter what Turbonutter says. It is a futuristic new gaming device, which I would love to see more frequently used next time as opposed to DVD’s. So whilst all those others claim to be the best, in reality Nintendo’s Gamecube is a far superior console. Yep it doesn’t look good down on paper but then all this flipper technology, new format, the console being designed by the developer effectively makes it the developers choice.
And with that in mind many many games can and will be done on the Gamecube due to its cleverly designed infrastructure that could never be done on the PS2 or X-box. Whilst PS2 gamers are waiting for Sony and co. to produce anything like that Tekken Demo used to show the console off, Gamecube gamers are playing Pikmin which surpasses what Gamecube’s 128 Mario’s demo did. Just bare that in mind when claiming the Gamecube’s inferiority to other consoles, it is never that simple. And now I wait for Turbonutter to turn up and disagree.
Here’s to the future.
Dringo.
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WòókieeMøn§†€® wrote:
> Didn't stop him creating Devil May Cry, though, did it? Nor RE Online
> for PS2.
The Gamecube isn't online and like I said, the PS2 has sold so many units, you're going to sell to a wider audience then it's the platform to make games for, not matter what a pain it is to work with.
> Many developers do the same when offered money. The creators of
> Munch's Oddysee, when first designing that game on PS2, told how great
> it was that they finally had the power to realise the game world as
> they intended it.
When they saw Sony's FMV "tech demo's" and high polygon count stats.
> Then MS offered them money for exclusive rights to the game, and all
> of a sudden all we heard was how bad the PS2 was to design for and so
> on.
If they were the ONLY ones who'd said it, then maybe the money would be a fair scapegoat, but when Sega, Capcom and several others also slate it for the very same reason, there's obviously something wrong.
Even Squaresoft with their lucrative relationship with Sony have often declared their love for the GC hardware.
It's obvious goes deeper than just the money!
Anyway, Mikami was saying it months before the exclusive deal.
Besides, if it HAD been about the money then he could've EASILY gone to Sony for an even better deal.
It was even kept secret so Sony couldn't place in a bid or prevent it.
>
>>>>> It also used the Gamecube's unique "multi-layed texturing"
>
> Which is exactly what they're doing on Onimush 2.
Obviously not.
A single Gamecube polygon does a multilayered texture that takes the PS2 8 polys. It's not efficient to use the PS2 in this way. And if they do put that much power into the lighting/water effects then there won't be so much left for everything else.
> Didn't stop him creating Devil May Cry, though, did it? Nor RE Online
> for PS2.
The Gamecube isn't online and like I said, the PS2 has sold so many units, you're going to sell to a wider audience then it's the platform to make games for, not matter what a pain it is to work with.
> Many developers do the same when offered money. The creators of
> Munch's Oddysee, when first designing that game on PS2, told how great
> it was that they finally had the power to realise the game world as
> they intended it.
When they saw Sony's FMV "tech demo's" and high polygon count stats.
> Then MS offered them money for exclusive rights to the game, and all
> of a sudden all we heard was how bad the PS2 was to design for and so
> on.
If they were the ONLY ones who'd said it, then maybe the money would be a fair scapegoat, but when Sega, Capcom and several others also slate it for the very same reason, there's obviously something wrong.
Even Squaresoft with their lucrative relationship with Sony have often declared their love for the GC hardware.
It's obvious goes deeper than just the money!
Anyway, Mikami was saying it months before the exclusive deal.
Besides, if it HAD been about the money then he could've EASILY gone to Sony for an even better deal.
It was even kept secret so Sony couldn't place in a bid or prevent it.
>
>>>>> It also used the Gamecube's unique "multi-layed texturing"
>
> Which is exactly what they're doing on Onimush 2.
Obviously not.
A single Gamecube polygon does a multilayered texture that takes the PS2 8 polys. It's not efficient to use the PS2 in this way. And if they do put that much power into the lighting/water effects then there won't be so much left for everything else.
Strafex wrote:
> Nope. I've forgotten his name now (creator of Resident Evil) and he's
> said this MANY times (even BEFORE the exclusive deal).
Shinji Mikami.
> He hates the PS2 hardware. He finds it awkward to use and dislikes it
> very much and even went as far as to say that the PS2 would lose its
> position as the market leader because of this flaw.
Didn't stop him creating Devil May Cry, though, did it? Nor RE Online for PS2.
Many developers do the same when offered money. The creators of Munch's Oddysee, when first designing that game on PS2, told how great it was that they finally had the power to realise the game world as they intended it.
Then MS offered them money for exclusive rights to the game, and all of a sudden all we heard was how bad the PS2 was to design for and so on.
Bad-mouthing does go on!
> It also used the Gamecube's unique "multi-layed texturing"
Which is exactly what they're doing on Onimush 2.
> Nope. I've forgotten his name now (creator of Resident Evil) and he's
> said this MANY times (even BEFORE the exclusive deal).
Shinji Mikami.
> He hates the PS2 hardware. He finds it awkward to use and dislikes it
> very much and even went as far as to say that the PS2 would lose its
> position as the market leader because of this flaw.
Didn't stop him creating Devil May Cry, though, did it? Nor RE Online for PS2.
Many developers do the same when offered money. The creators of Munch's Oddysee, when first designing that game on PS2, told how great it was that they finally had the power to realise the game world as they intended it.
Then MS offered them money for exclusive rights to the game, and all of a sudden all we heard was how bad the PS2 was to design for and so on.
Bad-mouthing does go on!
> It also used the Gamecube's unique "multi-layed texturing"
Which is exactly what they're doing on Onimush 2.
Dringo wrote:
> Oh for christs sake Sonic if you're not going to enter console war
> arguments then what are you doing on these bloody forums. LEts compare
> the post i wrote a few days ago on iconongraphy and this one,
> Iconography was good and intresting but the fact is no one gives a
> shi** this is FAR more interesting!!!! And if a newbie wrote this i'd
> be impressed by the research done and the way it was presented in
> stead of a few statements they normally make.
>
I agree! This is a very interesting topic. People who can't cope with a good discussion shouldn't attempt to throw a spanner in the works. The comments Dringo is coming out with on a daily basis are leaving me in hysterics!
> Sorry Strafex looks like you need some back up. Tellah do you know
> anything? Why was Resident Evil Cube exclusive, because they couldn't
> do it on the PS2 it was in an interview. Yep Devil May Cry was
> possible but Resdient Evil's new unique ideas were hard to produce on
> the PS2.
As WM said, there's nothing new about Resident Evil GC. Tell me what interview, who the speaker was, and where you read it if you want any weight added to that preposterous statement.
As for the dominant button thing it doesn't work like that,
> all 3 buttons (particulary B and A) are easy to use B is no harder
> than X,O etc... but A is easy than X O etc... ok?
>
You yourself describe the big button in the middle as 'the dominant button'. It's the button that games will use more often (that's what dominant means). This design flaw will become MUCH more apparent when the GC finally gets a large library of games. You can't play Streetfighter, Tekken and many others on the GC pad effectively.
> Did i say anything about game music as well? I just said the ability
> to use sound effectivly. It is all well and good if Sony can but if
> the third parties cannot then its pointless! MusyX is easy to use,
> made by FActor 5 and so others can use it well!
Surely effective game sound is effective music? Am I missing something? And the timing and type of music are nothing to do with the PS2 hardware! As for 3rd parties not being able to use the PS2 sound effectively... That's *possibly* the most inaccurate, biased thing you've yet said. Erm... REZ anyone? Made by Sega - best interactive music game ever.
Assuming you mean sound effects rather than music, I'm currently playing MOH Frontline (by EA), and it's got the best effects I've ever heard in any game - coupled with fantastic and atmospheric music.
> Oh for christs sake Sonic if you're not going to enter console war
> arguments then what are you doing on these bloody forums. LEts compare
> the post i wrote a few days ago on iconongraphy and this one,
> Iconography was good and intresting but the fact is no one gives a
> shi** this is FAR more interesting!!!! And if a newbie wrote this i'd
> be impressed by the research done and the way it was presented in
> stead of a few statements they normally make.
>
I agree! This is a very interesting topic. People who can't cope with a good discussion shouldn't attempt to throw a spanner in the works. The comments Dringo is coming out with on a daily basis are leaving me in hysterics!
> Sorry Strafex looks like you need some back up. Tellah do you know
> anything? Why was Resident Evil Cube exclusive, because they couldn't
> do it on the PS2 it was in an interview. Yep Devil May Cry was
> possible but Resdient Evil's new unique ideas were hard to produce on
> the PS2.
As WM said, there's nothing new about Resident Evil GC. Tell me what interview, who the speaker was, and where you read it if you want any weight added to that preposterous statement.
As for the dominant button thing it doesn't work like that,
> all 3 buttons (particulary B and A) are easy to use B is no harder
> than X,O etc... but A is easy than X O etc... ok?
>
You yourself describe the big button in the middle as 'the dominant button'. It's the button that games will use more often (that's what dominant means). This design flaw will become MUCH more apparent when the GC finally gets a large library of games. You can't play Streetfighter, Tekken and many others on the GC pad effectively.
> Did i say anything about game music as well? I just said the ability
> to use sound effectivly. It is all well and good if Sony can but if
> the third parties cannot then its pointless! MusyX is easy to use,
> made by FActor 5 and so others can use it well!
Surely effective game sound is effective music? Am I missing something? And the timing and type of music are nothing to do with the PS2 hardware! As for 3rd parties not being able to use the PS2 sound effectively... That's *possibly* the most inaccurate, biased thing you've yet said. Erm... REZ anyone? Made by Sega - best interactive music game ever.
Assuming you mean sound effects rather than music, I'm currently playing MOH Frontline (by EA), and it's got the best effects I've ever heard in any game - coupled with fantastic and atmospheric music.
WòókieeMøn§†€® wrote:
> The ONLY reason that RE is now on Gamecube is that Nintendo paid
> Capcom a hefty sum of money for an exclusive deal, just as MS have
> done for Munch's Oddysee and Sony have done for GTA.
Nope. I've forgotten his name now (creator of Resident Evil) and he's said this MANY times (even BEFORE the exclusive deal).
He hates the PS2 hardware. He finds it awkward to use and dislikes it very much and even went as far as to say that the PS2 would lose its position as the market leader because of this flaw.
I disagree with the last statement.
Because devellopers are putting up with the awkward hardware, the PS2 is getting its games anyway and won't be losing it's place any time soon (like you said, the Xbox and Gamecube are merely battling for second place) but he's not the only one who's slated the PS2's hardware.
Nintendo probably did hand some money over, but if it was all about the money, why didn't Capcom then tell Sony who would've placed a MUCH higher bid.
Maybe, as you also said, had Mikami (if that's his name) taken the time to get used the hardware, perhaps it might've grown on him, but I don't think it's JUST a different way of doing things. People may have stopped moaning about what a pain the PS2 is to devellop for but that'll be down to the fact that the PS2 has sold so many units, it's worth develloping for anyway.
As for Resi, it COULD have done on the PS2 (albeit in a not so slick form), but it didn't JUST use the old pre-rendered backgrounds techniques.
It also used the Gamecube's unique "multi-layed texturing" to easily apply lighting effects that would've taken months of strained effort to come close to reproducing on another machine.
> The ONLY reason that RE is now on Gamecube is that Nintendo paid
> Capcom a hefty sum of money for an exclusive deal, just as MS have
> done for Munch's Oddysee and Sony have done for GTA.
Nope. I've forgotten his name now (creator of Resident Evil) and he's said this MANY times (even BEFORE the exclusive deal).
He hates the PS2 hardware. He finds it awkward to use and dislikes it very much and even went as far as to say that the PS2 would lose its position as the market leader because of this flaw.
I disagree with the last statement.
Because devellopers are putting up with the awkward hardware, the PS2 is getting its games anyway and won't be losing it's place any time soon (like you said, the Xbox and Gamecube are merely battling for second place) but he's not the only one who's slated the PS2's hardware.
Nintendo probably did hand some money over, but if it was all about the money, why didn't Capcom then tell Sony who would've placed a MUCH higher bid.
Maybe, as you also said, had Mikami (if that's his name) taken the time to get used the hardware, perhaps it might've grown on him, but I don't think it's JUST a different way of doing things. People may have stopped moaning about what a pain the PS2 is to devellop for but that'll be down to the fact that the PS2 has sold so many units, it's worth develloping for anyway.
As for Resi, it COULD have done on the PS2 (albeit in a not so slick form), but it didn't JUST use the old pre-rendered backgrounds techniques.
It also used the Gamecube's unique "multi-layed texturing" to easily apply lighting effects that would've taken months of strained effort to come close to reproducing on another machine.
Ok Dringo...
About 3 posts down you say that:
"It is all well and good if Sony can but if the third parties cannot then its pointless! MusyX is easy to use, made by FActor 5 and so others can use it well!"
This is utter nonsense. With Sony's new crop of dev kit software, sound (including surround modes and the like) is just as easy to implement compared to using the GC sound software in the dev kits.
Not only that, but because most companies now use middleware for PS2 development, companies other than Sony have spent millions opitimising the sound tools, and almost every developer has access to these.
The whole argument is flawed anyway because few people will be able to tell the difference between sound quality in the consoles- nless you have it hooked up to a hi fi then it won't make a jot of difference.
Sonic
About 3 posts down you say that:
"It is all well and good if Sony can but if the third parties cannot then its pointless! MusyX is easy to use, made by FActor 5 and so others can use it well!"
This is utter nonsense. With Sony's new crop of dev kit software, sound (including surround modes and the like) is just as easy to implement compared to using the GC sound software in the dev kits.
Not only that, but because most companies now use middleware for PS2 development, companies other than Sony have spent millions opitimising the sound tools, and almost every developer has access to these.
The whole argument is flawed anyway because few people will be able to tell the difference between sound quality in the consoles- nless you have it hooked up to a hi fi then it won't make a jot of difference.
Sonic
Dringo wrote:
> Sorry Strafex looks like you need some back up. Tellah do you know
> anything? Why was Resident Evil Cube exclusive, because they couldn't
> do it on the PS2 it was in an interview. Yep Devil May Cry was
> possible but Resdient Evil's new unique ideas were hard to produce on
> the PS2.
What utter rubbish!
Resident Evil - pre-rendered backgrounds and polygon characters. They were doing that on PSone!
As fantastic as RE is (and yes, I will be buying it - I'm very much looking forward to it) there is nothing in Resident Evil that can't be done on ANY other system.
In fact, Onimusha and Onimusha 2 are done in exactly the same way.
The ONLY reason that RE is now on Gamecube is that Nintendo paid Capcom a hefty sum of money for an exclusive deal, just as MS have done for Munch's Oddysee and Sony have done for GTA.
> Sorry Strafex looks like you need some back up. Tellah do you know
> anything? Why was Resident Evil Cube exclusive, because they couldn't
> do it on the PS2 it was in an interview. Yep Devil May Cry was
> possible but Resdient Evil's new unique ideas were hard to produce on
> the PS2.
What utter rubbish!
Resident Evil - pre-rendered backgrounds and polygon characters. They were doing that on PSone!
As fantastic as RE is (and yes, I will be buying it - I'm very much looking forward to it) there is nothing in Resident Evil that can't be done on ANY other system.
In fact, Onimusha and Onimusha 2 are done in exactly the same way.
The ONLY reason that RE is now on Gamecube is that Nintendo paid Capcom a hefty sum of money for an exclusive deal, just as MS have done for Munch's Oddysee and Sony have done for GTA.
Besides, about dominant buttons, newbie gamers playing simple game benefit from a main button.
In many more complex games, there's still one button that's more important than others. And in complex games where the buttons are more or less equal, it might take you 5 minutes to get used to finding the smaller buttons, but any hardcore gamer willing to play a complex game would overcome this in no time.
Hardcore gamers can adapt.
Not-so-hardcore gamers need all the help they can get.
In many more complex games, there's still one button that's more important than others. And in complex games where the buttons are more or less equal, it might take you 5 minutes to get used to finding the smaller buttons, but any hardcore gamer willing to play a complex game would overcome this in no time.
Hardcore gamers can adapt.
Not-so-hardcore gamers need all the help they can get.
Oh for christs sake Sonic if you're not going to enter console war arguments then what are you doing on these bloody forums. LEts compare the post i wrote a few days ago on iconongraphy and this one, Iconography was good and intresting but the fact is no one gives a shi** this is FAR more interesting!!!! And if a newbie wrote this i'd be impressed by the research done and the way it was presented in stead of a few statements they normally make.
Sorry Strafex looks like you need some back up. Tellah do you know anything? Why was Resident Evil Cube exclusive, because they couldn't do it on the PS2 it was in an interview. Yep Devil May Cry was possible but Resdient Evil's new unique ideas were hard to produce on the PS2. As for the dominant button thing it doesn't work like that, all 3 buttons (particulary B and A) are easy to use B is no harder than X,O etc... but A is easy than X O etc... ok?
Did i say anything about game music as well? I just said the ability to use sound effectivly. It is all well and good if Sony can but if the third parties cannot then its pointless! MusyX is easy to use, made by FActor 5 and so others can use it well!
Sorry Strafex looks like you need some back up. Tellah do you know anything? Why was Resident Evil Cube exclusive, because they couldn't do it on the PS2 it was in an interview. Yep Devil May Cry was possible but Resdient Evil's new unique ideas were hard to produce on the PS2. As for the dominant button thing it doesn't work like that, all 3 buttons (particulary B and A) are easy to use B is no harder than X,O etc... but A is easy than X O etc... ok?
Did i say anything about game music as well? I just said the ability to use sound effectivly. It is all well and good if Sony can but if the third parties cannot then its pointless! MusyX is easy to use, made by FActor 5 and so others can use it well!
Tyla wrote:
> And you had to post this twice to tell us this:-)
Despite having a dual ISDN line almost solely at my disposal, sometimes things just freeze, making you hit the button again!
> And you had to post this twice to tell us this:-)
Despite having a dual ISDN line almost solely at my disposal, sometimes things just freeze, making you hit the button again!
===SONICRAV---> wrote:
> 1) ...but which is selling far better? ...
Obviously the PS2, but with a huge head start and an enourmously established user base... unless some unknown incedent happens where every PS2 sold evapourates I don't think anyone will catch up!
> 2) Had a newbie done this, we'd all be shouting abuse.
And you had to post this twice to tell us this:-)
> 1) ...but which is selling far better? ...
Obviously the PS2, but with a huge head start and an enourmously established user base... unless some unknown incedent happens where every PS2 sold evapourates I don't think anyone will catch up!
> 2) Had a newbie done this, we'd all be shouting abuse.
And you had to post this twice to tell us this:-)
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