The "General Games Chat" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
Finding out about a game that has been released in a couple of European Countries has brought me out from my enforced hiatus to post my feelings about this:
Usually I’m the first person to defend “freedom of choice” and will stand up for a game/movie like GTA3/State of Emergency by saying “It’s a game, it allows you to do things for fun with no consequence”.
Except I’ve become aware of a game that has me genuinely concerned as to who would play it and why.
“Hooligans – Storm Over Europe”. A PC game about football hooligans.
Now it’s not cartoony, it’s very realistic and real-world like in appearance. The aim of the game? According to the website:
The object is to become the most notorious group of Hooligans in Europe. You must kill, maim and destroy the opposing Hooligan teams. You muster and control your faithful troops by administering drugs, alcohol and of course a good dose of violence every now and then. They must become true followers of your faction, for better or worse.
Not only good strategic skills are required but also a good political mindset and managing capabilities to keep your troops happy and violent.
Whoever is victorious and catches the publics attention in the media, will end up the most notorious Hooligans in Europe and the world! A title that every Hooligan with his heart in the right place loves to fight for!
You get bonus points for “attacking civilians to increase your wanted rating and bonuses for targeting minority groups”.
If you go to the website, you are greeted with a nice black and red image of a skinhead glaring out at you.
The forums are filled with racial hatred and “Firms” organising meetings and the most viscious racial abuse directed at other countries.
Some of the avatars you can choose are swastikas and other nazi symbols.
Game Ltd have refused to carry this game, and HMV and Virgin are coming under serious complaint from watchdog groups for stocking it.
It’s also not being released in Germany or America and Trading Standards are investigating the game to see if it contravenes the “Incitement to Racial Hatred” act passed since Sept 11th.
In Germany, it is illegal to have games displaying any symbolism of fascist iconography, and it is also illegal to use Nazi ideology as a basis for entertainment – rightly so but the UK has no such restrictions, we rely on public decency and morals.
Now I know this is just a game and all that, but what makes me unhappy is the reasoning behind the game. It’s one thing to play an undercover/ex cop trying to bring down a crime syndicate (GTA3), but it’s another thing entirely when the idea of a game is to commit racial murder and acts of hooliganism for the sole purpose of “Being the number 1 firm in Europe”.
And if I had any doubt about the intention or morality behind this game, then a visit to the forums for this game (I wont give out the URL as I object to Nazi propaganda) will indicate just where the game developer’s feelings lay. Several moderators have joined in the boasts about “the good old days” and making continued racial slurs and abuse towards people.
A game is a game, I understand that. And I’m not suggesting that by playing this game you will instantly become a nazi thug.
But seeing as we are in the 21st century, and especially since Sept 11th, I find it abhorrent that somebody still thinks it’s a good idea to bring out a game that rewards murder and racial hatred as if it were a noble thing.
If there was a game to be released called “Auschwitz Death Camp 2002: The Revenge” then there would be international outcry and, hopefully, condemnation from the world. But having investigated this game as best I can and as best as I can tolerate, I can see no difference between this game and tattooing a swastika on your head and “bashing p***s” as one poster proudly boasted.
The main game that caused contention last time was “GTA3”, but that had a strict moral guideline in it.
You could attack pedestrians if you wanted to, but you were working to bring down a criminal organisation. The wholesale slaughter was just there if you felt inclined to do so, and you would be arrested or shot after a few moments mayhem. You were working towards a goal that was pro-legal, you fought gangs etc to bring order and calm to Liberty City.
However, Hooligans exists solely to murder and cause violence for the sake of it.
You could say the same about State of Emergency, but they use the “Globol Corps” plot and you get penalised for attacking civilians, and if you look, all of your opponents are faceless white-people, there is no mission that involves attacking minority groups.
I’m not going to demand that Hooligans be banned, or that stores shouldn’t stock this game, I stand by personal choice and, unfortunately, that extends to allowing right-wing Nazis their say as well.
But I am extremely offended and unhappy about the notion that a game exists that promotes and actively encourages murderous, racist, thuggish behaviour for the sake of it.
The reward in commanding loyalty and devotions amongst your skinhead followers suggests that the feelings and emotions of the games developers involved in this game are not being ironic or making a comment about society.
This is bigoted, Nazi behaviour under the banner of “entertainment” and that is what I object to, not the game, but the ideology behind it.
Usually I’m the first person to defend “freedom of choice” and will stand up for a game/movie like GTA3/State of Emergency by saying “It’s a game, it allows you to do things for fun with no consequence”.
Except I’ve become aware of a game that has me genuinely concerned as to who would play it and why.
“Hooligans – Storm Over Europe”. A PC game about football hooligans.
Now it’s not cartoony, it’s very realistic and real-world like in appearance. The aim of the game? According to the website:
The object is to become the most notorious group of Hooligans in Europe. You must kill, maim and destroy the opposing Hooligan teams. You muster and control your faithful troops by administering drugs, alcohol and of course a good dose of violence every now and then. They must become true followers of your faction, for better or worse.
Not only good strategic skills are required but also a good political mindset and managing capabilities to keep your troops happy and violent.
Whoever is victorious and catches the publics attention in the media, will end up the most notorious Hooligans in Europe and the world! A title that every Hooligan with his heart in the right place loves to fight for!
You get bonus points for “attacking civilians to increase your wanted rating and bonuses for targeting minority groups”.
If you go to the website, you are greeted with a nice black and red image of a skinhead glaring out at you.
The forums are filled with racial hatred and “Firms” organising meetings and the most viscious racial abuse directed at other countries.
Some of the avatars you can choose are swastikas and other nazi symbols.
Game Ltd have refused to carry this game, and HMV and Virgin are coming under serious complaint from watchdog groups for stocking it.
It’s also not being released in Germany or America and Trading Standards are investigating the game to see if it contravenes the “Incitement to Racial Hatred” act passed since Sept 11th.
In Germany, it is illegal to have games displaying any symbolism of fascist iconography, and it is also illegal to use Nazi ideology as a basis for entertainment – rightly so but the UK has no such restrictions, we rely on public decency and morals.
Now I know this is just a game and all that, but what makes me unhappy is the reasoning behind the game. It’s one thing to play an undercover/ex cop trying to bring down a crime syndicate (GTA3), but it’s another thing entirely when the idea of a game is to commit racial murder and acts of hooliganism for the sole purpose of “Being the number 1 firm in Europe”.
And if I had any doubt about the intention or morality behind this game, then a visit to the forums for this game (I wont give out the URL as I object to Nazi propaganda) will indicate just where the game developer’s feelings lay. Several moderators have joined in the boasts about “the good old days” and making continued racial slurs and abuse towards people.
A game is a game, I understand that. And I’m not suggesting that by playing this game you will instantly become a nazi thug.
But seeing as we are in the 21st century, and especially since Sept 11th, I find it abhorrent that somebody still thinks it’s a good idea to bring out a game that rewards murder and racial hatred as if it were a noble thing.
If there was a game to be released called “Auschwitz Death Camp 2002: The Revenge” then there would be international outcry and, hopefully, condemnation from the world. But having investigated this game as best I can and as best as I can tolerate, I can see no difference between this game and tattooing a swastika on your head and “bashing p***s” as one poster proudly boasted.
The main game that caused contention last time was “GTA3”, but that had a strict moral guideline in it.
You could attack pedestrians if you wanted to, but you were working to bring down a criminal organisation. The wholesale slaughter was just there if you felt inclined to do so, and you would be arrested or shot after a few moments mayhem. You were working towards a goal that was pro-legal, you fought gangs etc to bring order and calm to Liberty City.
However, Hooligans exists solely to murder and cause violence for the sake of it.
You could say the same about State of Emergency, but they use the “Globol Corps” plot and you get penalised for attacking civilians, and if you look, all of your opponents are faceless white-people, there is no mission that involves attacking minority groups.
I’m not going to demand that Hooligans be banned, or that stores shouldn’t stock this game, I stand by personal choice and, unfortunately, that extends to allowing right-wing Nazis their say as well.
But I am extremely offended and unhappy about the notion that a game exists that promotes and actively encourages murderous, racist, thuggish behaviour for the sake of it.
The reward in commanding loyalty and devotions amongst your skinhead followers suggests that the feelings and emotions of the games developers involved in this game are not being ironic or making a comment about society.
This is bigoted, Nazi behaviour under the banner of “entertainment” and that is what I object to, not the game, but the ideology behind it.
Page:
My take on this, and I don't know if someone else has already said this, is that the plot seems to play too great a role.
Look at it this way. GTA3 could have a plot where you're a vigilante against the criminal moguls, working your way up the organisation to topple it, or it could have you as a petty thief wanting to reach the top; either way it's fundamentally the same. There's no difference in gameplay or content, other than in words or cutscenes.
Similarly with this game, would we be as concerned if you played an undercover police-officer?
Personally I do think this game is abhorrant and that's because it has no merit of any form. A shocking film/book/game can have artistic merit that redeems it, but Hooligan is just wanton violence and seems to me utterly wrong. I had nothing against Carmageddon, nor GTA but this makes me uneasy. It promotes facism - not patriotism because Hooligans are not patriotic the are just violent; they do nothing for their home country by beating up other people - and it asks you to revel in it.
I do find the game sickening, but I wonder if they had changed the plot and left the content the same it would have made a difference...
Look at it this way. GTA3 could have a plot where you're a vigilante against the criminal moguls, working your way up the organisation to topple it, or it could have you as a petty thief wanting to reach the top; either way it's fundamentally the same. There's no difference in gameplay or content, other than in words or cutscenes.
Similarly with this game, would we be as concerned if you played an undercover police-officer?
Personally I do think this game is abhorrant and that's because it has no merit of any form. A shocking film/book/game can have artistic merit that redeems it, but Hooligan is just wanton violence and seems to me utterly wrong. I had nothing against Carmageddon, nor GTA but this makes me uneasy. It promotes facism - not patriotism because Hooligans are not patriotic the are just violent; they do nothing for their home country by beating up other people - and it asks you to revel in it.
I do find the game sickening, but I wonder if they had changed the plot and left the content the same it would have made a difference...
I was suprised when the BBFC let GTA3 through the system untouched, but this really tops it. This is the Football Hooligans game isn't it?
In GTA3, we can pick up a hooker, have sex, and then clobber her over the head with a baseball bat until she is dead - but this is okay because the main character is an undercover/ex cop (which I didn't know was the case) trying to bring down a crime syndicate.
There's no bigoted ideology behind such gameplay, but surely (if we are to get moralistic about games), this is just as distasteful as the Hooligan game?
There's no bigoted ideology behind such gameplay, but surely (if we are to get moralistic about games), this is just as distasteful as the Hooligan game?
People, I think the whole point has been confused here.
What makes Holigans racist is that you find someone and beat them up because they are black/jew (whatever).
If you happen to beat someone up for the sake of fighting and they are black that is not racist. You would have beaten them up no matter what there colour, the bottom line you want a fight.
The episode of South Park really highlights this point. (Cartmans Silly Hate Crime 2000)
Anyone that says that other games like (SF/GTA3) are racist are just being stupid. These games do not promote racist attitudes, they merely depict life as realistically as possible. Thankfully that includes people of all races living together in a City and if someone chooses to only beat up black streetfighter characters and black people in GTA3 then they have some serious problems. I posted a topic about this yesterday. Computer Games should be fun to play, and available to all. thy should not be used as a means to degrade, seperate, or promote they idea that one race is superior to another. Computer Games should be about people uniting to have fun, this sort of game cannot be classed in that category.
Until now I have never encountered a problem such as this, but I am disgusted and outraged that a game such as this has sold so many copies across Europe.
This is obviously the product of some extremist group, trying to subtly introduce their ideas to people.
Let me ask this, if there was a game where Taliban (for want of a better name)members were on a holy mission to kill as many white people and crash planes into buildings how would we react. We would no doubt be outraged, well that feeling is the exact way we should feel about any other other Racist, Bigotist, etc games.
What makes Holigans racist is that you find someone and beat them up because they are black/jew (whatever).
If you happen to beat someone up for the sake of fighting and they are black that is not racist. You would have beaten them up no matter what there colour, the bottom line you want a fight.
The episode of South Park really highlights this point. (Cartmans Silly Hate Crime 2000)
Anyone that says that other games like (SF/GTA3) are racist are just being stupid. These games do not promote racist attitudes, they merely depict life as realistically as possible. Thankfully that includes people of all races living together in a City and if someone chooses to only beat up black streetfighter characters and black people in GTA3 then they have some serious problems. I posted a topic about this yesterday. Computer Games should be fun to play, and available to all. thy should not be used as a means to degrade, seperate, or promote they idea that one race is superior to another. Computer Games should be about people uniting to have fun, this sort of game cannot be classed in that category.
Until now I have never encountered a problem such as this, but I am disgusted and outraged that a game such as this has sold so many copies across Europe.
This is obviously the product of some extremist group, trying to subtly introduce their ideas to people.
Let me ask this, if there was a game where Taliban (for want of a better name)members were on a holy mission to kill as many white people and crash planes into buildings how would we react. We would no doubt be outraged, well that feeling is the exact way we should feel about any other other Racist, Bigotist, etc games.
Reaper[oV] wrote:
Then again, the debate seemed to end with the intelligent
> contribution of "if u dont like it, go play barbie horsriding or sumthing,
> but be careful, u might step on an ant!"..
I certainly hope not. {:)
Anyway, as I said, don't think I have an opinion at the moment because I don't know enough about it...not that it would really matter anyway.
Then again, the debate seemed to end with the intelligent
> contribution of "if u dont like it, go play barbie horsriding or sumthing,
> but be careful, u might step on an ant!"..
I certainly hope not. {:)
Anyway, as I said, don't think I have an opinion at the moment because I don't know enough about it...not that it would really matter anyway.
I've watched this all day and kept an eye on the thread about Hooligans on the multiplay forums at the same time, and the difference in view is very surprising - almost all of the gamers on the mpuk site think it's completely acceptable, with the justification
1) It's only a game
2) We kill people in games anyway
3) The gamer should be responsible for censoring themselves
Joined in that debate a bit, everything seems to have already been said in here - To clear up my view, I don't think that it should be on general release because of the specific targetting of certain races, it's not "just another action title".
Then again, the debate seemed to end with the intelligent contribution of "if u dont like it, go play barbie horsriding or sumthing, but be careful, u might step on an ant!"..
1) It's only a game
2) We kill people in games anyway
3) The gamer should be responsible for censoring themselves
Joined in that debate a bit, everything seems to have already been said in here - To clear up my view, I don't think that it should be on general release because of the specific targetting of certain races, it's not "just another action title".
Then again, the debate seemed to end with the intelligent contribution of "if u dont like it, go play barbie horsriding or sumthing, but be careful, u might step on an ant!"..
Very good topic and debate.
I have nothing new to offer to the original argument, as I completely agree that the ideology and representation of some forms of video entertainment are very wrong.
I have nothing new to offer to the original argument, as I completely agree that the ideology and representation of some forms of video entertainment are very wrong.
Oh...a controversial argument...don't really want to get involved. My opinion wouldn't count for much, I'm probably too young to really get involved, and I don't know enough about the subject.
Whilst this game certainly has dubious morals, I doubt that it will incite the white British youths to become Nazis, I also doubt that the publishers are trying to use this a some sort of soapbox for their political views.
What we have here is a dev team spicing up a mundane RTS management game to make it stand out from the crowd, and congratulations to them, they have done an outstanding job.
Before you all click "reply" in anger, I am not condoning any part of this game or what it stands for. I am observing from a purely economic perspective. They want money, they have a sub standard product in a highly competitive market, and controversy is one way to sell such a product.
This game will be forgotton a few months down the line. It will sell on reputation not artistic merit. It is just like "Postal", and how many of you who bought that still play it?
Some of you are disgusted that the game is purveying Nazi themes as entertainment. Whilst I also find this wholly distasteful, I think it is worse that someone will be making money from this. Surely an example of living off immoral earnings? Although I usually like getting controversial games to see what the fuss is about, I'll be giving this one a wide berth.
What we have here is a dev team spicing up a mundane RTS management game to make it stand out from the crowd, and congratulations to them, they have done an outstanding job.
Before you all click "reply" in anger, I am not condoning any part of this game or what it stands for. I am observing from a purely economic perspective. They want money, they have a sub standard product in a highly competitive market, and controversy is one way to sell such a product.
This game will be forgotton a few months down the line. It will sell on reputation not artistic merit. It is just like "Postal", and how many of you who bought that still play it?
Some of you are disgusted that the game is purveying Nazi themes as entertainment. Whilst I also find this wholly distasteful, I think it is worse that someone will be making money from this. Surely an example of living off immoral earnings? Although I usually like getting controversial games to see what the fuss is about, I'll be giving this one a wide berth.
Goatboy wrote:
A fair point, except the character you
> portray and the websites features white skinheads and a symbol consisting of two
> skins with fists raised in salute with a black/red/white flag behind them.
It
> reeks of fascist idealogy and the moderators on the boards and the posters
> engage in severely offensive racist comments with each other.
---------------
Oh! well it's obvious then, I wouldn't have thought it would have been allowed, anyway it happens the other way around.
e.g. RTCW all you do is kill Nazis I believe? same in Commados, me thinks they want a little revenge, the sad thing is this actually happens, but then Racisms hardly a new thing.
I havn't found much on this game, SR don't have any pictures.
It's actually quite funny, you reviewed the game, said how incredibly bad it was, but you gave it a rating of 10/10, heh, not hard to see it's a mistake, but still funny.
A fair point, except the character you
> portray and the websites features white skinheads and a symbol consisting of two
> skins with fists raised in salute with a black/red/white flag behind them.
It
> reeks of fascist idealogy and the moderators on the boards and the posters
> engage in severely offensive racist comments with each other.
---------------
Oh! well it's obvious then, I wouldn't have thought it would have been allowed, anyway it happens the other way around.
e.g. RTCW all you do is kill Nazis I believe? same in Commados, me thinks they want a little revenge, the sad thing is this actually happens, but then Racisms hardly a new thing.
I havn't found much on this game, SR don't have any pictures.
It's actually quite funny, you reviewed the game, said how incredibly bad it was, but you gave it a rating of 10/10, heh, not hard to see it's a mistake, but still funny.
Page: