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Finding out about a game that has been released in a couple of European Countries has brought me out from my enforced hiatus to post my feelings about this:
Usually I’m the first person to defend “freedom of choice” and will stand up for a game/movie like GTA3/State of Emergency by saying “It’s a game, it allows you to do things for fun with no consequence”.
Except I’ve become aware of a game that has me genuinely concerned as to who would play it and why.
“Hooligans – Storm Over Europe”. A PC game about football hooligans.
Now it’s not cartoony, it’s very realistic and real-world like in appearance. The aim of the game? According to the website:
The object is to become the most notorious group of Hooligans in Europe. You must kill, maim and destroy the opposing Hooligan teams. You muster and control your faithful troops by administering drugs, alcohol and of course a good dose of violence every now and then. They must become true followers of your faction, for better or worse.
Not only good strategic skills are required but also a good political mindset and managing capabilities to keep your troops happy and violent.
Whoever is victorious and catches the publics attention in the media, will end up the most notorious Hooligans in Europe and the world! A title that every Hooligan with his heart in the right place loves to fight for!
You get bonus points for “attacking civilians to increase your wanted rating and bonuses for targeting minority groups”.
If you go to the website, you are greeted with a nice black and red image of a skinhead glaring out at you.
The forums are filled with racial hatred and “Firms” organising meetings and the most viscious racial abuse directed at other countries.
Some of the avatars you can choose are swastikas and other nazi symbols.
Game Ltd have refused to carry this game, and HMV and Virgin are coming under serious complaint from watchdog groups for stocking it.
It’s also not being released in Germany or America and Trading Standards are investigating the game to see if it contravenes the “Incitement to Racial Hatred” act passed since Sept 11th.
In Germany, it is illegal to have games displaying any symbolism of fascist iconography, and it is also illegal to use Nazi ideology as a basis for entertainment – rightly so but the UK has no such restrictions, we rely on public decency and morals.
Now I know this is just a game and all that, but what makes me unhappy is the reasoning behind the game. It’s one thing to play an undercover/ex cop trying to bring down a crime syndicate (GTA3), but it’s another thing entirely when the idea of a game is to commit racial murder and acts of hooliganism for the sole purpose of “Being the number 1 firm in Europe”.
And if I had any doubt about the intention or morality behind this game, then a visit to the forums for this game (I wont give out the URL as I object to Nazi propaganda) will indicate just where the game developer’s feelings lay. Several moderators have joined in the boasts about “the good old days” and making continued racial slurs and abuse towards people.
A game is a game, I understand that. And I’m not suggesting that by playing this game you will instantly become a nazi thug.
But seeing as we are in the 21st century, and especially since Sept 11th, I find it abhorrent that somebody still thinks it’s a good idea to bring out a game that rewards murder and racial hatred as if it were a noble thing.
If there was a game to be released called “Auschwitz Death Camp 2002: The Revenge” then there would be international outcry and, hopefully, condemnation from the world. But having investigated this game as best I can and as best as I can tolerate, I can see no difference between this game and tattooing a swastika on your head and “bashing p***s” as one poster proudly boasted.
The main game that caused contention last time was “GTA3”, but that had a strict moral guideline in it.
You could attack pedestrians if you wanted to, but you were working to bring down a criminal organisation. The wholesale slaughter was just there if you felt inclined to do so, and you would be arrested or shot after a few moments mayhem. You were working towards a goal that was pro-legal, you fought gangs etc to bring order and calm to Liberty City.
However, Hooligans exists solely to murder and cause violence for the sake of it.
You could say the same about State of Emergency, but they use the “Globol Corps” plot and you get penalised for attacking civilians, and if you look, all of your opponents are faceless white-people, there is no mission that involves attacking minority groups.
I’m not going to demand that Hooligans be banned, or that stores shouldn’t stock this game, I stand by personal choice and, unfortunately, that extends to allowing right-wing Nazis their say as well.
But I am extremely offended and unhappy about the notion that a game exists that promotes and actively encourages murderous, racist, thuggish behaviour for the sake of it.
The reward in commanding loyalty and devotions amongst your skinhead followers suggests that the feelings and emotions of the games developers involved in this game are not being ironic or making a comment about society.
This is bigoted, Nazi behaviour under the banner of “entertainment” and that is what I object to, not the game, but the ideology behind it.
Usually I’m the first person to defend “freedom of choice” and will stand up for a game/movie like GTA3/State of Emergency by saying “It’s a game, it allows you to do things for fun with no consequence”.
Except I’ve become aware of a game that has me genuinely concerned as to who would play it and why.
“Hooligans – Storm Over Europe”. A PC game about football hooligans.
Now it’s not cartoony, it’s very realistic and real-world like in appearance. The aim of the game? According to the website:
The object is to become the most notorious group of Hooligans in Europe. You must kill, maim and destroy the opposing Hooligan teams. You muster and control your faithful troops by administering drugs, alcohol and of course a good dose of violence every now and then. They must become true followers of your faction, for better or worse.
Not only good strategic skills are required but also a good political mindset and managing capabilities to keep your troops happy and violent.
Whoever is victorious and catches the publics attention in the media, will end up the most notorious Hooligans in Europe and the world! A title that every Hooligan with his heart in the right place loves to fight for!
You get bonus points for “attacking civilians to increase your wanted rating and bonuses for targeting minority groups”.
If you go to the website, you are greeted with a nice black and red image of a skinhead glaring out at you.
The forums are filled with racial hatred and “Firms” organising meetings and the most viscious racial abuse directed at other countries.
Some of the avatars you can choose are swastikas and other nazi symbols.
Game Ltd have refused to carry this game, and HMV and Virgin are coming under serious complaint from watchdog groups for stocking it.
It’s also not being released in Germany or America and Trading Standards are investigating the game to see if it contravenes the “Incitement to Racial Hatred” act passed since Sept 11th.
In Germany, it is illegal to have games displaying any symbolism of fascist iconography, and it is also illegal to use Nazi ideology as a basis for entertainment – rightly so but the UK has no such restrictions, we rely on public decency and morals.
Now I know this is just a game and all that, but what makes me unhappy is the reasoning behind the game. It’s one thing to play an undercover/ex cop trying to bring down a crime syndicate (GTA3), but it’s another thing entirely when the idea of a game is to commit racial murder and acts of hooliganism for the sole purpose of “Being the number 1 firm in Europe”.
And if I had any doubt about the intention or morality behind this game, then a visit to the forums for this game (I wont give out the URL as I object to Nazi propaganda) will indicate just where the game developer’s feelings lay. Several moderators have joined in the boasts about “the good old days” and making continued racial slurs and abuse towards people.
A game is a game, I understand that. And I’m not suggesting that by playing this game you will instantly become a nazi thug.
But seeing as we are in the 21st century, and especially since Sept 11th, I find it abhorrent that somebody still thinks it’s a good idea to bring out a game that rewards murder and racial hatred as if it were a noble thing.
If there was a game to be released called “Auschwitz Death Camp 2002: The Revenge” then there would be international outcry and, hopefully, condemnation from the world. But having investigated this game as best I can and as best as I can tolerate, I can see no difference between this game and tattooing a swastika on your head and “bashing p***s” as one poster proudly boasted.
The main game that caused contention last time was “GTA3”, but that had a strict moral guideline in it.
You could attack pedestrians if you wanted to, but you were working to bring down a criminal organisation. The wholesale slaughter was just there if you felt inclined to do so, and you would be arrested or shot after a few moments mayhem. You were working towards a goal that was pro-legal, you fought gangs etc to bring order and calm to Liberty City.
However, Hooligans exists solely to murder and cause violence for the sake of it.
You could say the same about State of Emergency, but they use the “Globol Corps” plot and you get penalised for attacking civilians, and if you look, all of your opponents are faceless white-people, there is no mission that involves attacking minority groups.
I’m not going to demand that Hooligans be banned, or that stores shouldn’t stock this game, I stand by personal choice and, unfortunately, that extends to allowing right-wing Nazis their say as well.
But I am extremely offended and unhappy about the notion that a game exists that promotes and actively encourages murderous, racist, thuggish behaviour for the sake of it.
The reward in commanding loyalty and devotions amongst your skinhead followers suggests that the feelings and emotions of the games developers involved in this game are not being ironic or making a comment about society.
This is bigoted, Nazi behaviour under the banner of “entertainment” and that is what I object to, not the game, but the ideology behind it.
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WòókieeMøn§†€® wrote:
You find it
> offensive and don't want it staring at you from the shelf; that's fine, and I
> respect that. But I find it offensive to have videos about gay sex staring out
> at me from the shelves in Virgin, but there's nothing I can do about it, and if
> I cause a fuss, I'm homophobic. Yet I don't dislike homosexual people (I have a
> gay cousin, and he's one of the nicest guys you could hope to meet), I just
> disagree with what they get up to behind closed doors. Not in the same league,
> I know, but it just shows that different aspects of life raise different
> people's hackles.
The phrase 'behind closed doors' pretty much sums up why this doesn't really stand up. Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone, and, because it goes on behind closed doors, it is none of our damn business. I don't approve of people eating Jamie Oliver's recipes; his ugly mug stares at me from every bookshelf in town; but I get over it because what other people eat is none of my damn business unless they're taking a chunk out of my elbow.
Fascism is different. Racists, xenophobes, homophobes, sectarians: they all attack OTHER people. Hooligans makes you attack minorities: it is the point of the game. And people are influenced by what they read, hear and play. GTA3 is different - it doesn't impose a morality on you, your morality is imposed on it. And what is most important is that the game never needs you to kill 'civilians': your technique decides how many others need to die to accomplish your goal. Drive carefully enough, shoot accurately enough and there's no need to kill a pedestrian in the whole game.
Hooligans requires you to attack the innocent, and discriminates between them on the most indefensible grounds: difference. Enough people die in racist attacks, or are harrassed about their religious beliefs or sexuality, without a game legitimising this sort of thing as entertainment. Fascism isn't dead: neo-nazi parties are strong in most European countries. Not to oppose people profiting from this sort of garbage is wrong, and dangerously so.
You find it
> offensive and don't want it staring at you from the shelf; that's fine, and I
> respect that. But I find it offensive to have videos about gay sex staring out
> at me from the shelves in Virgin, but there's nothing I can do about it, and if
> I cause a fuss, I'm homophobic. Yet I don't dislike homosexual people (I have a
> gay cousin, and he's one of the nicest guys you could hope to meet), I just
> disagree with what they get up to behind closed doors. Not in the same league,
> I know, but it just shows that different aspects of life raise different
> people's hackles.
The phrase 'behind closed doors' pretty much sums up why this doesn't really stand up. Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone, and, because it goes on behind closed doors, it is none of our damn business. I don't approve of people eating Jamie Oliver's recipes; his ugly mug stares at me from every bookshelf in town; but I get over it because what other people eat is none of my damn business unless they're taking a chunk out of my elbow.
Fascism is different. Racists, xenophobes, homophobes, sectarians: they all attack OTHER people. Hooligans makes you attack minorities: it is the point of the game. And people are influenced by what they read, hear and play. GTA3 is different - it doesn't impose a morality on you, your morality is imposed on it. And what is most important is that the game never needs you to kill 'civilians': your technique decides how many others need to die to accomplish your goal. Drive carefully enough, shoot accurately enough and there's no need to kill a pedestrian in the whole game.
Hooligans requires you to attack the innocent, and discriminates between them on the most indefensible grounds: difference. Enough people die in racist attacks, or are harrassed about their religious beliefs or sexuality, without a game legitimising this sort of thing as entertainment. Fascism isn't dead: neo-nazi parties are strong in most European countries. Not to oppose people profiting from this sort of garbage is wrong, and dangerously so.
But killing is killing, and surely it's wrong, regardless of race?
Basically, the way I see it:
GTA3, SOA:
You cause mayhem and maybe kill a black/asian etc person. All people are considered equal whoever you pick.
Hooligan:
You cause mayhem and SPECIFICALLY TARGET your least favourite minority race. You get extra points and 'credit' for doing so.
Theres a world of difference.
As soon as you start playing with real world ideas which have caused so much horror in the past, it crosses the line. It crosses way over the line.
GTA3, SOA:
You cause mayhem and maybe kill a black/asian etc person. All people are considered equal whoever you pick.
Hooligan:
You cause mayhem and SPECIFICALLY TARGET your least favourite minority race. You get extra points and 'credit' for doing so.
Theres a world of difference.
As soon as you start playing with real world ideas which have caused so much horror in the past, it crosses the line. It crosses way over the line.
Goatboy wrote:
> There comes a time when playing Devil's Advocate is the cowards way out.
I don't see it as a cowards way out, I see it as a legitimate question.
> So, which is it? For or Against a game that advocates ethnic violence
> and is the sole reason for the game's existence?
For me, neither. As you're so fond of telling readers of the Daily Mail, it's a game, and with respect, I find it a little unusual that someone who has openly condemned areas of the press for becoming so insanely OTT about games like GTA3 should then do exactly the same about Hooligans.
You *do* get rewarded for killing civilians in GTA3, because they often drop money. The cops don't always turn up if you're careful, so you can get away with it easily. And I'm sure that when they do turn up, I'm not the only person who's shot a few cops to evade capture. It's great in the game, but I wouldn't dream of doing it in real life.
And you do have a choice. In GTA3, if you don't agree with attacking minorities, you don't do it. With Hooligans, you just don't buy the game.
Whether you're a mercenary in Soldier of Fortune killing Arabs, an ex-cop mugging grannies and prostitutes in GTA3, or a soccer yob killing Johnny Foreigner in Hooligans, the basic premise is the same - you're killing someone from a different group of people. The basic premise is the same. The reason GTA3 got away with it is because, like South Park, it treats all races with the same contempt - black, white, oriental, italian etc. - no-one is safe. But is that really any better?
I do not advocate Nazism at all (my mum's Jewish, so I think that says it all really), and I do find the game distasteful, but for me it's just a game and no big deal.
You find it offensive and don't want it staring at you from the shelf; that's fine, and I respect that. But I find it offensive to have videos about gay sex staring out at me from the shelves in Virgin, but there's nothing I can do about it, and if I cause a fuss, I'm homophobic. Yet I don't dislike homosexual people (I have a gay cousin, and he's one of the nicest guys you could hope to meet), I just disagree with what they get up to behind closed doors. Not in the same league, I know, but it just shows that different aspects of life raise different people's hackles.
Finally, someone has released a game that pushes the wrong buttons in you, and you realise how those Daily Mail readers feel about games like GTA3 and SOE. And again, everyone is falling into the trap: any publicity is good publicity. Had the media not latched onto this game, it would probably have passed unnoticed, as apparently it isn't actually that good anyway. But now, people are curious and may well be tempted to buy it just to see what it's like - especially 'that group' of teenagers.
Few people will buy this game and be turned into the new Hitler; no doubt real-life Nazi's will buy the game and love every minute of it; those that would copy the game's antics most likely think that way already; and others may just enjoy it for what it is - a game. People know what the game is about, and can make their own informed decisions. As we all say about the Daily Mail - give gamers some credit.
> There comes a time when playing Devil's Advocate is the cowards way out.
I don't see it as a cowards way out, I see it as a legitimate question.
> So, which is it? For or Against a game that advocates ethnic violence
> and is the sole reason for the game's existence?
For me, neither. As you're so fond of telling readers of the Daily Mail, it's a game, and with respect, I find it a little unusual that someone who has openly condemned areas of the press for becoming so insanely OTT about games like GTA3 should then do exactly the same about Hooligans.
You *do* get rewarded for killing civilians in GTA3, because they often drop money. The cops don't always turn up if you're careful, so you can get away with it easily. And I'm sure that when they do turn up, I'm not the only person who's shot a few cops to evade capture. It's great in the game, but I wouldn't dream of doing it in real life.
And you do have a choice. In GTA3, if you don't agree with attacking minorities, you don't do it. With Hooligans, you just don't buy the game.
Whether you're a mercenary in Soldier of Fortune killing Arabs, an ex-cop mugging grannies and prostitutes in GTA3, or a soccer yob killing Johnny Foreigner in Hooligans, the basic premise is the same - you're killing someone from a different group of people. The basic premise is the same. The reason GTA3 got away with it is because, like South Park, it treats all races with the same contempt - black, white, oriental, italian etc. - no-one is safe. But is that really any better?
I do not advocate Nazism at all (my mum's Jewish, so I think that says it all really), and I do find the game distasteful, but for me it's just a game and no big deal.
You find it offensive and don't want it staring at you from the shelf; that's fine, and I respect that. But I find it offensive to have videos about gay sex staring out at me from the shelves in Virgin, but there's nothing I can do about it, and if I cause a fuss, I'm homophobic. Yet I don't dislike homosexual people (I have a gay cousin, and he's one of the nicest guys you could hope to meet), I just disagree with what they get up to behind closed doors. Not in the same league, I know, but it just shows that different aspects of life raise different people's hackles.
Finally, someone has released a game that pushes the wrong buttons in you, and you realise how those Daily Mail readers feel about games like GTA3 and SOE. And again, everyone is falling into the trap: any publicity is good publicity. Had the media not latched onto this game, it would probably have passed unnoticed, as apparently it isn't actually that good anyway. But now, people are curious and may well be tempted to buy it just to see what it's like - especially 'that group' of teenagers.
Few people will buy this game and be turned into the new Hitler; no doubt real-life Nazi's will buy the game and love every minute of it; those that would copy the game's antics most likely think that way already; and others may just enjoy it for what it is - a game. People know what the game is about, and can make their own informed decisions. As we all say about the Daily Mail - give gamers some credit.
Ah...Hicks.
its just a ride man ;)
Screwing about with other people words is always a little dubious, however...
But you know I heard about this game this year called er, 'Hooligan'. Okay now. Shanks's quick capsule review:
Piece-of-Crap.
Okay now. Yeah, yeah, end of story by the way. Don't get caught up in that fevered hype phoney flaming debate about that Piece-of-crap movie.
"Is it too racist, and what about the games, are they becoming too dddddddd."
You're, you're just confused, you don't get, you've forgotten how to judge correctly. Take a deep breath huuh, look at it again.
"Oh it's a Piece-of-Crap!"
Exactly, that's all it is. Satan squatted, let out a loaf, they put a flaming title on it, put it on a marquee, Satan's crap, piece of crap, walk away.
"But is it too, what about the Nazi propaganda connot.. ddddd."
You're, you're getting really baffled here. Piece-of-Crap! Now walk away. That's all it is, it's nothing more! Free yourself folks, if you see it, Piece-of-Crap, say it and walk away. You're right! You're right! Not those idiots who want to tell you how to think! You're right!
Sorry wrong post.
But you know I heard about this game this year called er, 'Hooligan'. Okay now. Shanks's quick capsule review:
Piece-of-Crap.
Okay now. Yeah, yeah, end of story by the way. Don't get caught up in that fevered hype phoney flaming debate about that Piece-of-crap movie.
"Is it too racist, and what about the games, are they becoming too dddddddd."
You're, you're just confused, you don't get, you've forgotten how to judge correctly. Take a deep breath huuh, look at it again.
"Oh it's a Piece-of-Crap!"
Exactly, that's all it is. Satan squatted, let out a loaf, they put a flaming title on it, put it on a marquee, Satan's crap, piece of crap, walk away.
"But is it too, what about the Nazi propaganda connot.. ddddd."
You're, you're getting really baffled here. Piece-of-Crap! Now walk away. That's all it is, it's nothing more! Free yourself folks, if you see it, Piece-of-Crap, say it and walk away. You're right! You're right! Not those idiots who want to tell you how to think! You're right!
Sorry wrong post.
FinalFantasyMeister wrote:
> 150 replies in less than 2 days!!!
WOW
Fortunately most of them add to the discussion.
Why did you bother posting that? Honestly?
If you have nothing to add, then don't add it.
> 150 replies in less than 2 days!!!
WOW
Fortunately most of them add to the discussion.
Why did you bother posting that? Honestly?
If you have nothing to add, then don't add it.
150 replies in less than 2 days!!!
WOW
WOW
V.V.V.V.V. wrote:
> In GTA3, we can pick up a hooker, have sex, and then clobber her over the head
> with a baseball bat until she is dead -
But it's your choice to do this. If you choose to rid Liberty City of all prostitutes it says more about you, than the makers of the game.
Hooligans gives you bonus points for targetting ethnic minorities, and the moderators on the forums trade highly offensive racist remarks. That's the kind of people that the game developer has chosen to associate itself with, and they obviously see that type of thing as acceptable. I don't so I'm not touching this game.
> In GTA3, we can pick up a hooker, have sex, and then clobber her over the head
> with a baseball bat until she is dead -
But it's your choice to do this. If you choose to rid Liberty City of all prostitutes it says more about you, than the makers of the game.
Hooligans gives you bonus points for targetting ethnic minorities, and the moderators on the forums trade highly offensive racist remarks. That's the kind of people that the game developer has chosen to associate itself with, and they obviously see that type of thing as acceptable. I don't so I'm not touching this game.
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