The "General Games Chat" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
Finding out about a game that has been released in a couple of European Countries has brought me out from my enforced hiatus to post my feelings about this:
Usually I’m the first person to defend “freedom of choice” and will stand up for a game/movie like GTA3/State of Emergency by saying “It’s a game, it allows you to do things for fun with no consequence”.
Except I’ve become aware of a game that has me genuinely concerned as to who would play it and why.
“Hooligans – Storm Over Europe”. A PC game about football hooligans.
Now it’s not cartoony, it’s very realistic and real-world like in appearance. The aim of the game? According to the website:
The object is to become the most notorious group of Hooligans in Europe. You must kill, maim and destroy the opposing Hooligan teams. You muster and control your faithful troops by administering drugs, alcohol and of course a good dose of violence every now and then. They must become true followers of your faction, for better or worse.
Not only good strategic skills are required but also a good political mindset and managing capabilities to keep your troops happy and violent.
Whoever is victorious and catches the publics attention in the media, will end up the most notorious Hooligans in Europe and the world! A title that every Hooligan with his heart in the right place loves to fight for!
You get bonus points for “attacking civilians to increase your wanted rating and bonuses for targeting minority groups”.
If you go to the website, you are greeted with a nice black and red image of a skinhead glaring out at you.
The forums are filled with racial hatred and “Firms” organising meetings and the most viscious racial abuse directed at other countries.
Some of the avatars you can choose are swastikas and other nazi symbols.
Game Ltd have refused to carry this game, and HMV and Virgin are coming under serious complaint from watchdog groups for stocking it.
It’s also not being released in Germany or America and Trading Standards are investigating the game to see if it contravenes the “Incitement to Racial Hatred” act passed since Sept 11th.
In Germany, it is illegal to have games displaying any symbolism of fascist iconography, and it is also illegal to use Nazi ideology as a basis for entertainment – rightly so but the UK has no such restrictions, we rely on public decency and morals.
Now I know this is just a game and all that, but what makes me unhappy is the reasoning behind the game. It’s one thing to play an undercover/ex cop trying to bring down a crime syndicate (GTA3), but it’s another thing entirely when the idea of a game is to commit racial murder and acts of hooliganism for the sole purpose of “Being the number 1 firm in Europe”.
And if I had any doubt about the intention or morality behind this game, then a visit to the forums for this game (I wont give out the URL as I object to Nazi propaganda) will indicate just where the game developer’s feelings lay. Several moderators have joined in the boasts about “the good old days” and making continued racial slurs and abuse towards people.
A game is a game, I understand that. And I’m not suggesting that by playing this game you will instantly become a nazi thug.
But seeing as we are in the 21st century, and especially since Sept 11th, I find it abhorrent that somebody still thinks it’s a good idea to bring out a game that rewards murder and racial hatred as if it were a noble thing.
If there was a game to be released called “Auschwitz Death Camp 2002: The Revenge” then there would be international outcry and, hopefully, condemnation from the world. But having investigated this game as best I can and as best as I can tolerate, I can see no difference between this game and tattooing a swastika on your head and “bashing p***s” as one poster proudly boasted.
The main game that caused contention last time was “GTA3”, but that had a strict moral guideline in it.
You could attack pedestrians if you wanted to, but you were working to bring down a criminal organisation. The wholesale slaughter was just there if you felt inclined to do so, and you would be arrested or shot after a few moments mayhem. You were working towards a goal that was pro-legal, you fought gangs etc to bring order and calm to Liberty City.
However, Hooligans exists solely to murder and cause violence for the sake of it.
You could say the same about State of Emergency, but they use the “Globol Corps” plot and you get penalised for attacking civilians, and if you look, all of your opponents are faceless white-people, there is no mission that involves attacking minority groups.
I’m not going to demand that Hooligans be banned, or that stores shouldn’t stock this game, I stand by personal choice and, unfortunately, that extends to allowing right-wing Nazis their say as well.
But I am extremely offended and unhappy about the notion that a game exists that promotes and actively encourages murderous, racist, thuggish behaviour for the sake of it.
The reward in commanding loyalty and devotions amongst your skinhead followers suggests that the feelings and emotions of the games developers involved in this game are not being ironic or making a comment about society.
This is bigoted, Nazi behaviour under the banner of “entertainment” and that is what I object to, not the game, but the ideology behind it.
Usually I’m the first person to defend “freedom of choice” and will stand up for a game/movie like GTA3/State of Emergency by saying “It’s a game, it allows you to do things for fun with no consequence”.
Except I’ve become aware of a game that has me genuinely concerned as to who would play it and why.
“Hooligans – Storm Over Europe”. A PC game about football hooligans.
Now it’s not cartoony, it’s very realistic and real-world like in appearance. The aim of the game? According to the website:
The object is to become the most notorious group of Hooligans in Europe. You must kill, maim and destroy the opposing Hooligan teams. You muster and control your faithful troops by administering drugs, alcohol and of course a good dose of violence every now and then. They must become true followers of your faction, for better or worse.
Not only good strategic skills are required but also a good political mindset and managing capabilities to keep your troops happy and violent.
Whoever is victorious and catches the publics attention in the media, will end up the most notorious Hooligans in Europe and the world! A title that every Hooligan with his heart in the right place loves to fight for!
You get bonus points for “attacking civilians to increase your wanted rating and bonuses for targeting minority groups”.
If you go to the website, you are greeted with a nice black and red image of a skinhead glaring out at you.
The forums are filled with racial hatred and “Firms” organising meetings and the most viscious racial abuse directed at other countries.
Some of the avatars you can choose are swastikas and other nazi symbols.
Game Ltd have refused to carry this game, and HMV and Virgin are coming under serious complaint from watchdog groups for stocking it.
It’s also not being released in Germany or America and Trading Standards are investigating the game to see if it contravenes the “Incitement to Racial Hatred” act passed since Sept 11th.
In Germany, it is illegal to have games displaying any symbolism of fascist iconography, and it is also illegal to use Nazi ideology as a basis for entertainment – rightly so but the UK has no such restrictions, we rely on public decency and morals.
Now I know this is just a game and all that, but what makes me unhappy is the reasoning behind the game. It’s one thing to play an undercover/ex cop trying to bring down a crime syndicate (GTA3), but it’s another thing entirely when the idea of a game is to commit racial murder and acts of hooliganism for the sole purpose of “Being the number 1 firm in Europe”.
And if I had any doubt about the intention or morality behind this game, then a visit to the forums for this game (I wont give out the URL as I object to Nazi propaganda) will indicate just where the game developer’s feelings lay. Several moderators have joined in the boasts about “the good old days” and making continued racial slurs and abuse towards people.
A game is a game, I understand that. And I’m not suggesting that by playing this game you will instantly become a nazi thug.
But seeing as we are in the 21st century, and especially since Sept 11th, I find it abhorrent that somebody still thinks it’s a good idea to bring out a game that rewards murder and racial hatred as if it were a noble thing.
If there was a game to be released called “Auschwitz Death Camp 2002: The Revenge” then there would be international outcry and, hopefully, condemnation from the world. But having investigated this game as best I can and as best as I can tolerate, I can see no difference between this game and tattooing a swastika on your head and “bashing p***s” as one poster proudly boasted.
The main game that caused contention last time was “GTA3”, but that had a strict moral guideline in it.
You could attack pedestrians if you wanted to, but you were working to bring down a criminal organisation. The wholesale slaughter was just there if you felt inclined to do so, and you would be arrested or shot after a few moments mayhem. You were working towards a goal that was pro-legal, you fought gangs etc to bring order and calm to Liberty City.
However, Hooligans exists solely to murder and cause violence for the sake of it.
You could say the same about State of Emergency, but they use the “Globol Corps” plot and you get penalised for attacking civilians, and if you look, all of your opponents are faceless white-people, there is no mission that involves attacking minority groups.
I’m not going to demand that Hooligans be banned, or that stores shouldn’t stock this game, I stand by personal choice and, unfortunately, that extends to allowing right-wing Nazis their say as well.
But I am extremely offended and unhappy about the notion that a game exists that promotes and actively encourages murderous, racist, thuggish behaviour for the sake of it.
The reward in commanding loyalty and devotions amongst your skinhead followers suggests that the feelings and emotions of the games developers involved in this game are not being ironic or making a comment about society.
This is bigoted, Nazi behaviour under the banner of “entertainment” and that is what I object to, not the game, but the ideology behind it.
Page:
Phew!.. this is really taxing.. I'm going to need a pint to finish this!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Balls.
So you mean to say that you would
> like the opportunity to buy this game if you so desire, even at the risk that
> someone, somewhere may expand on the Nazi ideas and murder someone?
You could
> stand in front of the family of a murdered Jew/Black/Whatever and say "Hey,
> I would never do that so y'know, respect my rights"
I dont believe games have such a direct influnce. I dont belive violence in games promotes violence in reality.. to a stable adult.
I agree with the American judges desicion to throw the case again id, Activision, etc.. out of court.
That if someone was to be influenced by a video game to such a degree, that there is plenty of other darker influences more readily avalible.
----------------------------------------------------------
This is not the
> standard "Do games cause violence" thing, this is a blatantly facist
> game, created by and aimed at nazis.
You mean to say that your right to be able
> to buy this game is more important than the rights of someone that wishes to
> prevent the release of such hateful material because it could very well
> encourage and incite nazis to murder?
I dont believe it will incite Nazis into any 'further' action.
------------------------------------------------------------
It is not dealing with it with
> hate.
Direct action does not mean attacking with violence.
Direct action is
> protesting and demonstrating to prevent the distribution of nazi
> material.
Direct action is being willing to try and affect a change that can
> only be an absolute good in defeating an immoral and unjustifiable concept such
> as facism.
I wasnt referring to just to violence. Hate comes in many forms, often with verbal, social, mentual bullying.
Open protest wont change anyones mind, preventing distribution, especially with the internet is a near impossibility
-----------------------------------------------------------
But it isn't banned is it? I can go to Sawbo and
> buy a goddamn Nazi game.
No, I mean in Germany.
-----------------------------------------------------------
There must come a point where
> society accepts that something is absolutely intolerable and acts against it,
> for the good of everyone.
Would you allow child pornography to be available in
> a game form on the shelves?
There is absolutely no difference with the severity
> of the offence being committed by those involved, those that sell and those that
> are complicit by their silence.
Ive already said all this.
-----------------------------------------------------------'
Explain to me your reasons for allowing this
> game to be available.
I'm not attempting to vindicate the game, I'm not trying to validate the subject matter.
Just that no matter how much the evil, and how contemtious the subject matter, that is should be delt with without hatred or anger. That we are trying to be the better people.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Balls.
So you mean to say that you would
> like the opportunity to buy this game if you so desire, even at the risk that
> someone, somewhere may expand on the Nazi ideas and murder someone?
You could
> stand in front of the family of a murdered Jew/Black/Whatever and say "Hey,
> I would never do that so y'know, respect my rights"
I dont believe games have such a direct influnce. I dont belive violence in games promotes violence in reality.. to a stable adult.
I agree with the American judges desicion to throw the case again id, Activision, etc.. out of court.
That if someone was to be influenced by a video game to such a degree, that there is plenty of other darker influences more readily avalible.
----------------------------------------------------------
This is not the
> standard "Do games cause violence" thing, this is a blatantly facist
> game, created by and aimed at nazis.
You mean to say that your right to be able
> to buy this game is more important than the rights of someone that wishes to
> prevent the release of such hateful material because it could very well
> encourage and incite nazis to murder?
I dont believe it will incite Nazis into any 'further' action.
------------------------------------------------------------
It is not dealing with it with
> hate.
Direct action does not mean attacking with violence.
Direct action is
> protesting and demonstrating to prevent the distribution of nazi
> material.
Direct action is being willing to try and affect a change that can
> only be an absolute good in defeating an immoral and unjustifiable concept such
> as facism.
I wasnt referring to just to violence. Hate comes in many forms, often with verbal, social, mentual bullying.
Open protest wont change anyones mind, preventing distribution, especially with the internet is a near impossibility
-----------------------------------------------------------
But it isn't banned is it? I can go to Sawbo and
> buy a goddamn Nazi game.
No, I mean in Germany.
-----------------------------------------------------------
There must come a point where
> society accepts that something is absolutely intolerable and acts against it,
> for the good of everyone.
Would you allow child pornography to be available in
> a game form on the shelves?
There is absolutely no difference with the severity
> of the offence being committed by those involved, those that sell and those that
> are complicit by their silence.
Ive already said all this.
-----------------------------------------------------------'
Explain to me your reasons for allowing this
> game to be available.
I'm not attempting to vindicate the game, I'm not trying to validate the subject matter.
Just that no matter how much the evil, and how contemtious the subject matter, that is should be delt with without hatred or anger. That we are trying to be the better people.
Armatige Shanks wrote:
Our indiviual rights and freedoms are more important than any political ideal.
---
Balls.
So you mean to say that you would like the opportunity to buy this game if you so desire, even at the risk that someone, somewhere may expand on the Nazi ideas and murder someone?
You could stand in front of the family of a murdered Jew/Black/Whatever and say "Hey, I would never do that so y'know, respect my rights"
This is not the standard "Do games cause violence" thing, this is a blatantly facist game, created by and aimed at nazis.
You mean to say that your right to be able to buy this game is more important than the rights of someone that wishes to prevent the release of such hateful material because it could very well encourage and incite nazis to murder?
As I said in a
> previous post, hate breeds hate, dealing with facism in such a way wont solve
> the problem, but increase its furver.
---
It is not dealing with it with hate.
Direct action does not mean attacking with violence.
Direct action is protesting and demonstrating to prevent the distribution of nazi material.
Direct action is being willing to try and affect a change that can only be an absolute good in defeating an immoral and unjustifiable concept such as facism.
My point
> is that a game of such violence would be banned whatever the subject matter
But it isn't banned is it? I can go to Sawbo and buy a goddamn Nazi game.
Racist/Facist literature is absolutely illegal in this, and most other countries.
The fact that the games industry is near enough unregulated allows this game to slip through, yet more and more countries are realising how dangerous it is to allow race-hate to be made as entertainment.
I ask again, what do you propose should be done about this game?
What do you propose a parent should do when they buy this game because they think it's a GTA3 type,only to discover that it's a right-wing game where you are encouraged to murder ethnic minorities?
There must come a point where society accepts that something is absolutely intolerable and acts against it, for the good of everyone.
Would you allow child pornography to be available in a game form on the shelves?
There is absolutely no difference with the severity of the offence being committed by those involved, those that sell and those that are complicit by their silence.
Explain to me your reasons for allowing this game to be available.
Our indiviual rights and freedoms are more important than any political ideal.
---
Balls.
So you mean to say that you would like the opportunity to buy this game if you so desire, even at the risk that someone, somewhere may expand on the Nazi ideas and murder someone?
You could stand in front of the family of a murdered Jew/Black/Whatever and say "Hey, I would never do that so y'know, respect my rights"
This is not the standard "Do games cause violence" thing, this is a blatantly facist game, created by and aimed at nazis.
You mean to say that your right to be able to buy this game is more important than the rights of someone that wishes to prevent the release of such hateful material because it could very well encourage and incite nazis to murder?
As I said in a
> previous post, hate breeds hate, dealing with facism in such a way wont solve
> the problem, but increase its furver.
---
It is not dealing with it with hate.
Direct action does not mean attacking with violence.
Direct action is protesting and demonstrating to prevent the distribution of nazi material.
Direct action is being willing to try and affect a change that can only be an absolute good in defeating an immoral and unjustifiable concept such as facism.
My point
> is that a game of such violence would be banned whatever the subject matter
But it isn't banned is it? I can go to Sawbo and buy a goddamn Nazi game.
Racist/Facist literature is absolutely illegal in this, and most other countries.
The fact that the games industry is near enough unregulated allows this game to slip through, yet more and more countries are realising how dangerous it is to allow race-hate to be made as entertainment.
I ask again, what do you propose should be done about this game?
What do you propose a parent should do when they buy this game because they think it's a GTA3 type,only to discover that it's a right-wing game where you are encouraged to murder ethnic minorities?
There must come a point where society accepts that something is absolutely intolerable and acts against it, for the good of everyone.
Would you allow child pornography to be available in a game form on the shelves?
There is absolutely no difference with the severity of the offence being committed by those involved, those that sell and those that are complicit by their silence.
Explain to me your reasons for allowing this game to be available.
Goatboy wrote:
Instead you choose to bleat about "being nannied", regardles of
> how your dignity is more important than a political ideal that has murdered
> millions, and continues to do so to this day.
Our indiviual rights and freedoms are more important than any political ideal.
That we can discuss this is important to me, I would rather someone was taught to open their minds, rather than own an opinion for fear of persicution.
As far as facism is
> concerned,you either confront it face-on with direct action or nothing will ever
> change.
As I said in a previous post, hate breeds hate, dealing with facism in such a way wont solve the problem, but increase its furver.
My point in mentioning how Germans treat Nazi
> references is to demonstrate that if a country responsible for Nazism realises
> the dangers and the measures they take to prevent a repeat, why are we any
> differrent in allowing this on shelves?
My point is that a game of such violence would be banned whatever the subject matter
Instead you choose to bleat about "being nannied", regardles of
> how your dignity is more important than a political ideal that has murdered
> millions, and continues to do so to this day.
Our indiviual rights and freedoms are more important than any political ideal.
That we can discuss this is important to me, I would rather someone was taught to open their minds, rather than own an opinion for fear of persicution.
As far as facism is
> concerned,you either confront it face-on with direct action or nothing will ever
> change.
As I said in a previous post, hate breeds hate, dealing with facism in such a way wont solve the problem, but increase its furver.
My point in mentioning how Germans treat Nazi
> references is to demonstrate that if a country responsible for Nazism realises
> the dangers and the measures they take to prevent a repeat, why are we any
> differrent in allowing this on shelves?
My point is that a game of such violence would be banned whatever the subject matter
Armatige Shanks wrote:
What about the Muslims, better make sure
> you can control any potential terrorist attacks, what sybol to give them?and the
> jews, a little star mybe? Never know what they'll do next.
Right, I tried to be nice but f##k that.
Shanks, stop being so obtuse.
I would like to see Facists marked out to prevent them operating in secret, which is how this stuff begins.
You made a flippant comment about "would you like to see me marked" and I responded in kind.
The Jew comment was absolutely unwarranted, given the nature of this discussion and to suggest that I would advocate such a response is both offensive to me personally and highly ignorant.
You have replied to the points made with standard responses and given no description of the actions you would take.
You have only criticised others without offering your own feelings on how to combat facism.
To merely skim the surface of this topic with platitudes and off-handed comments without committing yourself to a decision either way is typical of the apathetic posturings that allow facism to proliferate.
As far as I'm concerned mate, you are afraid to take a side on this issue and have, as yet, offered no solutions of your own.
Instead you choose to bleat about "being nannied", regardles of how your dignity is more important than a political ideal that has murdered millions, and continues to do so to this day.
As far as facism is concerned,you either confront it face-on with direct action or nothing will ever change.
But then Germany
> isnt allowed to sell any game that graphically shows blood.
My point in mentioning how Germans treat Nazi references is to demonstrate that if a country responsible for Nazism realises the dangers and the measures they take to prevent a repeat, why are we any differrent in allowing this on shelves?
What about the Muslims, better make sure
> you can control any potential terrorist attacks, what sybol to give them?and the
> jews, a little star mybe? Never know what they'll do next.
Right, I tried to be nice but f##k that.
Shanks, stop being so obtuse.
I would like to see Facists marked out to prevent them operating in secret, which is how this stuff begins.
You made a flippant comment about "would you like to see me marked" and I responded in kind.
The Jew comment was absolutely unwarranted, given the nature of this discussion and to suggest that I would advocate such a response is both offensive to me personally and highly ignorant.
You have replied to the points made with standard responses and given no description of the actions you would take.
You have only criticised others without offering your own feelings on how to combat facism.
To merely skim the surface of this topic with platitudes and off-handed comments without committing yourself to a decision either way is typical of the apathetic posturings that allow facism to proliferate.
As far as I'm concerned mate, you are afraid to take a side on this issue and have, as yet, offered no solutions of your own.
Instead you choose to bleat about "being nannied", regardles of how your dignity is more important than a political ideal that has murdered millions, and continues to do so to this day.
As far as facism is concerned,you either confront it face-on with direct action or nothing will ever change.
But then Germany
> isnt allowed to sell any game that graphically shows blood.
My point in mentioning how Germans treat Nazi references is to demonstrate that if a country responsible for Nazism realises the dangers and the measures they take to prevent a repeat, why are we any differrent in allowing this on shelves?
unknown kernel wrote:
>I was
> saying that ANYTHING that doesn't harm another human being and that you choose
> to do is none of our business. WookieMan said that he disapproved of
> homosexuality 'behind closed doors' and found gay videos in Virgin offensive,
> equating it with me finding Hooligans offensive. I was just using his phrase.
Ahh... oops, sorry about that one :)
>I was
> saying that ANYTHING that doesn't harm another human being and that you choose
> to do is none of our business. WookieMan said that he disapproved of
> homosexuality 'behind closed doors' and found gay videos in Virgin offensive,
> equating it with me finding Hooligans offensive. I was just using his phrase.
Ahh... oops, sorry about that one :)
Goatboy wrote:
No you ignorant person. If you want to read Primo Levi,you go to a
> bookshop to the "History" section. It's under "Holocaust
> Writings". A history of what facism can do when allowed to
> propagate.
Thats my point.
Yes I would. I
> would like every person to buy this game to be marked out in the street, so that
> everyone is aware of their decision to partake of facist material. To have the
> courage to display their ignorant hate instead of quietly and cowardly hating
> people.
That way, I can see you and take you down.
Combatting facism is an
> absolute good.
What about the Muslims, better make sure you can control any potential terrorist attacks, what sybol to give them?and the jews, a little star mybe? Never know what they'll do next.
It is not a reactionary response.
A reactionary response would be to
> attack the developers HQ.
A rational response is to ask that race-hate games be
> treated as they should be:
With contempt.
Thats doesn't solves any of the problems though. If thats the case then we had better hang child rapists and murderers, since they deserve no better either.
Is Germany being reactionary in banning any reference to the Nazi
> party?
Or has Germany learned a horrific lesson in what facism leads to when
> allowed?
Is it reactionary to fight against an idealism that advocates the
> murder and persecution of another person because their ideals differ?
But then Germany isnt allowed to sell any game that graphically shows blood.
I understand graphically violent games, are brown paper bag purchases?
No you ignorant person. If you want to read Primo Levi,you go to a
> bookshop to the "History" section. It's under "Holocaust
> Writings". A history of what facism can do when allowed to
> propagate.
Thats my point.
Yes I would. I
> would like every person to buy this game to be marked out in the street, so that
> everyone is aware of their decision to partake of facist material. To have the
> courage to display their ignorant hate instead of quietly and cowardly hating
> people.
That way, I can see you and take you down.
Combatting facism is an
> absolute good.
What about the Muslims, better make sure you can control any potential terrorist attacks, what sybol to give them?and the jews, a little star mybe? Never know what they'll do next.
It is not a reactionary response.
A reactionary response would be to
> attack the developers HQ.
A rational response is to ask that race-hate games be
> treated as they should be:
With contempt.
Thats doesn't solves any of the problems though. If thats the case then we had better hang child rapists and murderers, since they deserve no better either.
Is Germany being reactionary in banning any reference to the Nazi
> party?
Or has Germany learned a horrific lesson in what facism leads to when
> allowed?
Is it reactionary to fight against an idealism that advocates the
> murder and persecution of another person because their ideals differ?
But then Germany isnt allowed to sell any game that graphically shows blood.
I understand graphically violent games, are brown paper bag purchases?
Gangsta Hamsta wrote:
Thats damn worrying
Possibly explains why no staff member has yet
> commented
Maybe this should be taken onto the Customer Service forum ?
Thats damn worrying
Possibly explains why no staff member has yet
> commented
Maybe this should be taken onto the Customer Service forum ?
I wonder if anyone has the balls to claim it as a GAD win??
Then they would be on public display for a few months!
Then they would be on public display for a few months!
I just took a look at this games site. Sick. The forum there is even worse with only a few people against the game, obviously seeing as the forum is on their own site.
Meka Dragon wrote:
> This game is currently number 10 in Special Reserves PC sales chart, by the way,
> so rather a lot of people seem to be buying it.
Thats damn worrying
Possibly explains why no staff member has yet commented
> This game is currently number 10 in Special Reserves PC sales chart, by the way,
> so rather a lot of people seem to be buying it.
Thats damn worrying
Possibly explains why no staff member has yet commented
Page: