The "Freeola Customer Forum" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
Below are the results, upcoming races, and drivers and constructors standings:
Results
Australia - 1st Raikkonen, 2nd Alonso, 3rd Vettel
Malaysia - 1st Vettel, 2nd Webber, 3rd Hamilton
China - 1st Alonso, 2nd Raikkonen, 3rd Hamilton
Bahrain - 1st Vettel, 2nd Raikkonen, 3rd Grosjean
Spain - 1st Alonso, 2nd Raikkonen, 3rd Massa
Monaco - 1st Rosberg, 2nd Vettel, 3rd Webber
Canada - 1st Vettel, 2nd Alonso, 3rd Hamilton
Great Britain - 1st Rosberg, 2nd Webber, 3rd Alonso
Germany - 1st Vettel, 2nd Raikkonen, 3rd Grosjean
Upcoming Races
Hungary 28th July
Belgium 25th August
Italy 08th September
Singapore 22nd September
Korea 06th October
Japan 13th October
India 27th October
Abu Dhabi 03rd November
United States17th November
Brazil 24th November
Drivers Standings
1 Sebastian Vettel 157
2 Fernando Alonso 123
3 Kimi Raikkonen 116
4 Lewis Hamilton 99
5 Mark Webber 93
6 Nico Rosberg 84
7 Felipe Massa 57
8 Romain Grosjean 41
9 Paul di Resta 36
10 Jenson Button 33
11 Adrian Sutil 23
12 Sergio Perez 16
13 Jean-Eric Vergne 13
14 Daniel Ricciardo11
15 Nico Hulkenberg 7
Rest yet to score
Constructors Standings
1 Red Bull 250
2 Mercedes 183
3 Ferrari 180
4 Lotus 157
5 Force India 59
6 McLaren 49
7 Toro Rosso 24
8 Sauber 7
Rest yet to score
Results
Australia - 1st Raikkonen, 2nd Alonso, 3rd Vettel
Malaysia - 1st Vettel, 2nd Webber, 3rd Hamilton
China - 1st Alonso, 2nd Raikkonen, 3rd Hamilton
Bahrain - 1st Vettel, 2nd Raikkonen, 3rd Grosjean
Spain - 1st Alonso, 2nd Raikkonen, 3rd Massa
Monaco - 1st Rosberg, 2nd Vettel, 3rd Webber
Canada - 1st Vettel, 2nd Alonso, 3rd Hamilton
Great Britain - 1st Rosberg, 2nd Webber, 3rd Alonso
Germany - 1st Vettel, 2nd Raikkonen, 3rd Grosjean
Upcoming Races
Hungary 28th July
Belgium 25th August
Italy 08th September
Singapore 22nd September
Korea 06th October
Japan 13th October
India 27th October
Abu Dhabi 03rd November
United States17th November
Brazil 24th November
Drivers Standings
1 Sebastian Vettel 157
2 Fernando Alonso 123
3 Kimi Raikkonen 116
4 Lewis Hamilton 99
5 Mark Webber 93
6 Nico Rosberg 84
7 Felipe Massa 57
8 Romain Grosjean 41
9 Paul di Resta 36
10 Jenson Button 33
11 Adrian Sutil 23
12 Sergio Perez 16
13 Jean-Eric Vergne 13
14 Daniel Ricciardo11
15 Nico Hulkenberg 7
Rest yet to score
Constructors Standings
1 Red Bull 250
2 Mercedes 183
3 Ferrari 180
4 Lotus 157
5 Force India 59
6 McLaren 49
7 Toro Rosso 24
8 Sauber 7
Rest yet to score
Page:
No, F1 teams do not trust their drivers in avoiding contact with each other. Webber and Vettel collided with each other in Turkey 2010 and Button and Hamilton hit each other in a wet Canada. It's because you are, rightly or wrongly, judged by your performances against your teammate who has the same machinery.
As for the comments of Watson and Berger. Both are right. Vettel should be suspended a race because he is an employee and he broke team rules. Berger is right that a ruthless streak is needed to be a champion.
When money was no object, it didn't matter if they crashed into each other as long as they win the championships. It's different now because they don't have infinite engines and gearboxes and the payout at the end of the season is essential to teams survivals.
As for the comments of Watson and Berger. Both are right. Vettel should be suspended a race because he is an employee and he broke team rules. Berger is right that a ruthless streak is needed to be a champion.
When money was no object, it didn't matter if they crashed into each other as long as they win the championships. It's different now because they don't have infinite engines and gearboxes and the payout at the end of the season is essential to teams survivals.
Grandprix wrote:
Red Bull, and all teams for that matter, look at the best and worst scenarios. They could have allowed their drivers to race and hit each other off for 0 points. Holding station and backing off the engines gets them 43 points and allows them to be a little more aggressive with that engine at future events.
Do the top F1 teams not trust their drivers to race without punting each other off then?, although I can see that Red Bull may well have a problem with that now. Been talking to a very good friend of mine about this today (massive lifelong F1 fan), we often have tongue in cheek debates (he doesn't follow bike racing BTW) and he said that he felt very short changed as Sundays race drew to a close. He agrees issuing team orders when less than 10% of the championship has run is ridiculous and potentially very damaging to the sport.
Even former F1 drivers seem to have differing opinions on Vettel's actions which I find quite intriguing, John Watson has stated that bad boy Vettel should be suspended for a race while Gerhard Berger has said that he had shown a ''ruthless streak that characterises the sport's greatest drivers''. Would such a ruthless win at all costs kind of guy really be all that keen to hold station for some guaranteed points? If modern day F1 drivers are not permitted to make their own decisions then what is the point of having them?, the teams may as well race remote controlled cars!
Red Bull, and all teams for that matter, look at the best and worst scenarios. They could have allowed their drivers to race and hit each other off for 0 points. Holding station and backing off the engines gets them 43 points and allows them to be a little more aggressive with that engine at future events.
Do the top F1 teams not trust their drivers to race without punting each other off then?, although I can see that Red Bull may well have a problem with that now. Been talking to a very good friend of mine about this today (massive lifelong F1 fan), we often have tongue in cheek debates (he doesn't follow bike racing BTW) and he said that he felt very short changed as Sundays race drew to a close. He agrees issuing team orders when less than 10% of the championship has run is ridiculous and potentially very damaging to the sport.
Even former F1 drivers seem to have differing opinions on Vettel's actions which I find quite intriguing, John Watson has stated that bad boy Vettel should be suspended for a race while Gerhard Berger has said that he had shown a ''ruthless streak that characterises the sport's greatest drivers''. Would such a ruthless win at all costs kind of guy really be all that keen to hold station for some guaranteed points? If modern day F1 drivers are not permitted to make their own decisions then what is the point of having them?, the teams may as well race remote controlled cars!
The team orders issued were for both Red Bull and Mercedes drivers to hold station. In both cases, neither was to favour 1 driver over the other. In Red Bull's case, after the last pit stop, Webber was leading and they saw the Mercedes challenge disappear so they chose to hold station and save the tyres and engines. In Mercedes, both cars were doing fuel saving, Hamilton probably a little more aggressively saving fuel. The race win had gone so they settled for the 3 4 finish.
Webber is obviously annoyed because he had switched everything down to get his car to the end and Vettel overtook him when he had been given orders to do the same as Webber. Nico probably was quicker but if he had chased after the Red Bulls, he could have ran out of fuel. Mercedes have had some tough times and just want the points at this stage. They are still 4th in the Constructors despite the 3 4 finish.
Red Bull, and all teams for that matter, look at the best and worst scenarios. They could have allowed their drivers to race and hit each other off for 0 points. Holding station and backing off the engines gets them 43 points and allows them to be a little more aggressive with that engine at future events.
The teams will look to win the team title first and, unless they are Ferrari with a clear number 1 driver, focus on the drivers title second. The drivers perspective is the other way around but the team should come first.
Webber is obviously annoyed because he had switched everything down to get his car to the end and Vettel overtook him when he had been given orders to do the same as Webber. Nico probably was quicker but if he had chased after the Red Bulls, he could have ran out of fuel. Mercedes have had some tough times and just want the points at this stage. They are still 4th in the Constructors despite the 3 4 finish.
Red Bull, and all teams for that matter, look at the best and worst scenarios. They could have allowed their drivers to race and hit each other off for 0 points. Holding station and backing off the engines gets them 43 points and allows them to be a little more aggressive with that engine at future events.
The teams will look to win the team title first and, unless they are Ferrari with a clear number 1 driver, focus on the drivers title second. The drivers perspective is the other way around but the team should come first.
pete_21 wrote:
I get the commercial thing, unfortunately motorsport is very much a business these days whether it be on 4 wheels or 2. What I really don't get is why people seem to accept that implementing team orders at only the second round of any championship is acceptable. Are both Red Bull and Mercedes drivers not in with a mathematical chance of winning the title this year?
My thoughts entirely, if it was towards the end of the season and only one of them was in with a chance of winning the championship then yes, team orders would be acceptable, but the 2nd race out of 20?
So what if Vettel disobeyed team orders, his aim is to win a 4th straight championship title and to do that you need to score more points than any other driver over the course of the season and to do that you finish in the best position you can manage in each race.
He was in 2nd, got a chance to grab 1st and took it, thereby increasing his chances of winning another title. People need to get off his back, OK he's apologised and all that but I bet inside he knows it was the right decision to make.
In other sports it would basically be classed as result fixing (should this not have serious implications regarding betting?).
I never bet on F1 for purely this reason, it's not purely about racing and seeing how well each driver can do on merit and driving ability you have to take into account team orders and try and read team boss's minds which is nigh on impossible.
I get the commercial thing, unfortunately motorsport is very much a business these days whether it be on 4 wheels or 2. What I really don't get is why people seem to accept that implementing team orders at only the second round of any championship is acceptable. Are both Red Bull and Mercedes drivers not in with a mathematical chance of winning the title this year?
My thoughts entirely, if it was towards the end of the season and only one of them was in with a chance of winning the championship then yes, team orders would be acceptable, but the 2nd race out of 20?
So what if Vettel disobeyed team orders, his aim is to win a 4th straight championship title and to do that you need to score more points than any other driver over the course of the season and to do that you finish in the best position you can manage in each race.
He was in 2nd, got a chance to grab 1st and took it, thereby increasing his chances of winning another title. People need to get off his back, OK he's apologised and all that but I bet inside he knows it was the right decision to make.
In other sports it would basically be classed as result fixing (should this not have serious implications regarding betting?).
I never bet on F1 for purely this reason, it's not purely about racing and seeing how well each driver can do on merit and driving ability you have to take into account team orders and try and read team boss's minds which is nigh on impossible.
pb wrote:
Neither of these teams issued orders because of drivers. Both were to get both of their cars home in that position. There was no driver order involved.
That's a matter of opinion, Rosberg apparently asked a few times if he was 'allowed' to pass Hamilton and Ross Brawn was quite clearly heard replying ''negative Nico, negative''. Is Hamilton their unofficial number 1 driver now? As for Red Bull, their team boss stated ''From our point of view as soon as that last pitstop was completed the instruction was given to both cars effectively to hold position'', so should F1 fans turn their TV sets off after the final pit stops as it doesn't look as though the top drivers are allowed to race after them? I wonder what would happen if 2 boxers who trained together and had the same management ended up in a professional fight and their management decided that whoever was leading on points at the 9th round merely had to coast to the end to win?
MotoGP has had team orders issued, in the same way that F1 had when it was banned.
I'm sure behind closed doors that certain MotoGP riders are requested to fall into a supporting role but that would only be at the end of the season when one rider perhaps had a chance of the title and the other did not, but come on...we're talking about round 2 here! Of course this clearly did not happen at Honda in 2006 when Pedrosa wiped out teammate and champion elect Hayden at the penultimate round. While round 6 of MotoGP in 2009 provided one of the most exciting motor racing battles of recent years between Yamaha teammates Rossi and Lorenzo, it lasted the entire race and was only settled at the final corner. Both riders were in the hunt for the championship and were (quite rightly in my view) allowed to race for it, is this not what motor racing should be? If there was ever some 'bring the bike home' crap introduced into MotoGP then I would stop watching that as well.
As for Garin's point about team orders being generally more widely accepted in cycling, I suppose that they are. Didn't Mark Cavendish help Bradley Wiggins in the latter stages of the Tour De France or was it at the second stage?
Oh well, I suppose this thing has given us something to chat about on here. Smedders, what's your spin on all of this? As an F1 fan would you like to see this kind of thing binned off or is it just an acceptable part of the sport these days? Come on guys lets overload those Freeola servers with some serious discussion for once!
Or we could just 'bring home' the tumbleweeds! :P
Neither of these teams issued orders because of drivers. Both were to get both of their cars home in that position. There was no driver order involved.
That's a matter of opinion, Rosberg apparently asked a few times if he was 'allowed' to pass Hamilton and Ross Brawn was quite clearly heard replying ''negative Nico, negative''. Is Hamilton their unofficial number 1 driver now? As for Red Bull, their team boss stated ''From our point of view as soon as that last pitstop was completed the instruction was given to both cars effectively to hold position'', so should F1 fans turn their TV sets off after the final pit stops as it doesn't look as though the top drivers are allowed to race after them? I wonder what would happen if 2 boxers who trained together and had the same management ended up in a professional fight and their management decided that whoever was leading on points at the 9th round merely had to coast to the end to win?
MotoGP has had team orders issued, in the same way that F1 had when it was banned.
I'm sure behind closed doors that certain MotoGP riders are requested to fall into a supporting role but that would only be at the end of the season when one rider perhaps had a chance of the title and the other did not, but come on...we're talking about round 2 here! Of course this clearly did not happen at Honda in 2006 when Pedrosa wiped out teammate and champion elect Hayden at the penultimate round. While round 6 of MotoGP in 2009 provided one of the most exciting motor racing battles of recent years between Yamaha teammates Rossi and Lorenzo, it lasted the entire race and was only settled at the final corner. Both riders were in the hunt for the championship and were (quite rightly in my view) allowed to race for it, is this not what motor racing should be? If there was ever some 'bring the bike home' crap introduced into MotoGP then I would stop watching that as well.
As for Garin's point about team orders being generally more widely accepted in cycling, I suppose that they are. Didn't Mark Cavendish help Bradley Wiggins in the latter stages of the Tour De France or was it at the second stage?
Oh well, I suppose this thing has given us something to chat about on here. Smedders, what's your spin on all of this? As an F1 fan would you like to see this kind of thing binned off or is it just an acceptable part of the sport these days? Come on guys lets overload those Freeola servers with some serious discussion for once!
Or we could just 'bring home' the tumbleweeds! :P
pete_21 wrote:
Cheers for clearing up the McLaren thing, thought there must be a reason why they were so rubbish. BTW did Hamilton take any of their technical guys with him when he left?
I get the commercial thing, unfortunately motorsport is very much a business these days whether it be on 4 wheels or 2. What I really don't get is why people seem to accept that implementing team orders at only the second round of any championship is acceptable. Are both Red Bull and Mercedes drivers not in with a mathematical chance of winning the title this year? In other sports it would basically be classed as result fixing (should this not have serious implications regarding betting?). Most F1 fans appear to be quite damning of Vettel while few seem to be questioning whether it was right for his team to be deciding the outcome of the second race of the season.
While Hamilton seems to have virtually apologised for being on the podium.
Yes MotoGP riders are also paid professionals who have to act in a way deemed to be appropriate by the people paying their wages but team orders are banned in that sport and I honestly can't see any of the top riders agreeing to follow them anyway, certainly not at the second race of the season.
Neither of these teams issued orders because of drivers. Both were to get both of their cars home in that position. There was no driver order involved.
MotoGP has had team orders issued, in the same way that F1 had when it was banned. Team managers have gone on record for agreeing with the FIA for the accepting of them in F1.
Cheers for clearing up the McLaren thing, thought there must be a reason why they were so rubbish. BTW did Hamilton take any of their technical guys with him when he left?
I get the commercial thing, unfortunately motorsport is very much a business these days whether it be on 4 wheels or 2. What I really don't get is why people seem to accept that implementing team orders at only the second round of any championship is acceptable. Are both Red Bull and Mercedes drivers not in with a mathematical chance of winning the title this year? In other sports it would basically be classed as result fixing (should this not have serious implications regarding betting?). Most F1 fans appear to be quite damning of Vettel while few seem to be questioning whether it was right for his team to be deciding the outcome of the second race of the season.
While Hamilton seems to have virtually apologised for being on the podium.
Yes MotoGP riders are also paid professionals who have to act in a way deemed to be appropriate by the people paying their wages but team orders are banned in that sport and I honestly can't see any of the top riders agreeing to follow them anyway, certainly not at the second race of the season.
Neither of these teams issued orders because of drivers. Both were to get both of their cars home in that position. There was no driver order involved.
MotoGP has had team orders issued, in the same way that F1 had when it was banned. Team managers have gone on record for agreeing with the FIA for the accepting of them in F1.
In my opinion the whole debate about team orders is rather arbitrary. Chris Froome won the Criterium International today, he did so, in part, thanks to team orders & collusion. Team orders are accepted and expected in cycling and lots of other sports. It seems slightly odd in fact that there can be outrage about teams behaving like well teams.
Cheers for clearing up the McLaren thing, thought there must be a reason why they were so rubbish. BTW did Hamilton take any of their technical guys with him when he left?
I get the commercial thing, unfortunately motorsport is very much a business these days whether it be on 4 wheels or 2. What I really don't get is why people seem to accept that implementing team orders at only the second round of any championship is acceptable. Are both Red Bull and Mercedes drivers not in with a mathematical chance of winning the title this year? In other sports it would basically be classed as result fixing (should this not have serious implications regarding betting?). Most F1 fans appear to be quite damning of Vettel while few seem to be questioning whether it was right for his team to be deciding the outcome of the second race of the season.
While Hamilton seems to have virtually apologised for being on the podium.
Yes MotoGP riders are also paid professionals who have to act in a way deemed to be appropriate by the people paying their wages but team orders are banned in that sport and I honestly can't see any of the top riders agreeing to follow them anyway, certainly not at the second race of the season.
I get the commercial thing, unfortunately motorsport is very much a business these days whether it be on 4 wheels or 2. What I really don't get is why people seem to accept that implementing team orders at only the second round of any championship is acceptable. Are both Red Bull and Mercedes drivers not in with a mathematical chance of winning the title this year? In other sports it would basically be classed as result fixing (should this not have serious implications regarding betting?). Most F1 fans appear to be quite damning of Vettel while few seem to be questioning whether it was right for his team to be deciding the outcome of the second race of the season.
While Hamilton seems to have virtually apologised for being on the podium.
Yes MotoGP riders are also paid professionals who have to act in a way deemed to be appropriate by the people paying their wages but team orders are banned in that sport and I honestly can't see any of the top riders agreeing to follow them anyway, certainly not at the second race of the season.
Team orders have been allowed for the last few years, it's a lot better than not being allowed but still being done covertly.
Besides, every team sport has team orders of some kind. The orders aren't there to let person A win, they're there to make sure the cars actually both make it through to the end, especially in the cases where they're worried about fuel and tyres.
Vettel just disobeyed team orders or, in his words, didn't understand them (yeah, right). The orders were there to get the cars back in positions 1 and 2 and not in bits all over the curb, as with last year, and there were some pretty close moments as the two cars touched. At the end of the day,if you're paid a huge sum of money for driving for a team then you don't really want to upset your boss, that's the same if your boss is Mercedes, Red Bull, Yamaha or Honda.
From a spectator point of view, though, it was a great race. Lots of tussles from turn 1 onwards and some great heart-stopping overtakes around tight bends, thanks in part to DRS and KERS giving every team an opportunity to overtake.
McLaren are in a brand new car, the only team to have done this at the start of the year, so they're having teething troubles. But today they looked a lot stronger. It was only an error from the pit lane that caused Jenson's retirement.
Looking forward to 3 weeks time, the first live race of the season on terrestrial TV.
Besides, every team sport has team orders of some kind. The orders aren't there to let person A win, they're there to make sure the cars actually both make it through to the end, especially in the cases where they're worried about fuel and tyres.
Vettel just disobeyed team orders or, in his words, didn't understand them (yeah, right). The orders were there to get the cars back in positions 1 and 2 and not in bits all over the curb, as with last year, and there were some pretty close moments as the two cars touched. At the end of the day,if you're paid a huge sum of money for driving for a team then you don't really want to upset your boss, that's the same if your boss is Mercedes, Red Bull, Yamaha or Honda.
From a spectator point of view, though, it was a great race. Lots of tussles from turn 1 onwards and some great heart-stopping overtakes around tight bends, thanks in part to DRS and KERS giving every team an opportunity to overtake.
McLaren are in a brand new car, the only team to have done this at the start of the year, so they're having teething troubles. But today they looked a lot stronger. It was only an error from the pit lane that caused Jenson's retirement.
Looking forward to 3 weeks time, the first live race of the season on terrestrial TV.
Page: