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"Criminality"

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Fri 11/11/05 at 09:47
Regular
Posts: 18,185
Sticking with the prison issue can I present another issue?

I accidentally, but stupidly, assisted in the burning down of a barn with a compensation claim reaching £200,000. I got 200 hours community service and a £2000 compensation payment.

During this incident my solicitor and PC Dave Lofting of the Huntingdon Police said to me "If it was a shed you wouldn't be in trouble".

So basically, I am a criminal because it was a lot of money I accidentally destroyed, I am not a criminal if the money was low??? But the crime is exactly the same. If I had burnt down something worth little I am not a reckless arsonist but if it is worth a lot I am???

How flawed is this.

During my community service I have met a chap named Steve. He is a very very nice guy, he helped me build a ramp (actually I helped him but lets not bicker). His wife left him and threw him out the house. 2 of his children want to live with him so that has made him feel better. The sad thing is he hasn't a home. He contacted the council and they are still, 3 months after he was kicked out, looking for a place to live. (he has a very small income).

Anyway the council understood that he was living in his car. One day after a mates birthday he comes back to his car after 4-5 drinks. He falls asleep only to be awoken by a knock at the window. He is breathalised and is given 100 hours community service for being "drunk in charge of a vehicle". The council wrote a letter explaining to the court that it was his home. They didn't care.

Now from both of these cases you could say neither me, nor steve are criminals. I was an idiot but hardly deserving of the label "criminal". Steve certainly isn't.

But then... lets take this example further. Much further.


One night a man is coming home from a late bussiness meeting. Very very late. Missing his family he tries to get back before his wife and kids go to sleep. He isn't speeding, but he is tired, normally he'd have stopped by now but he is but a few miles from home. He may as well continue.

But disaster strikes, he falls asleep. He drives off the road and onto a railway line. He is hit by a train. He survives. But 50 passangers do not. The man, when he comes around is devestated. He has killed so many people, he feels physically sick and can't begin to comprehend the damage he has done. Of course the judge has no choice but to send him to prison. A hardworking human being with a good family who has never been in trouble before goes to prison for a lengthy period of time.

The families of course believe it isn't enough. The judge, to some varying agree knows, that the man he sent to prison is no criminal. But a man who made a terrible mistake.

Looking at that incident and maybe some of you can relate to it. I have been in the car with many people who are driving home tired. From concerts or one day music festivals mainly. Worn out and exhausted my girlfriend drove 100's of miles home and nearly fell asleep. It could have been her, it could have been me... it could have been you.

Of course similar stories are found all the time involving drunk drivers.

What defines a criminal exactly?
Fri 11/11/05 at 18:28
Regular
Posts: 18,185
gamesfreak wrote:
> Falling asleep at the wheel is irresponsible, regardless if he wanted
> "to see his family before they went to bed", you should
> only drive if you are fully aware and alert.

I know loads of people who have driven cause they need to get home. Students on the way back from a concert... they head home... tired or not.

> When you drive you're not only responsible for yourself, but you're
> responsible for every other driver on the road, hence why
> carelessness isn't forgivable.

You are one of those pompous people who has never done anything of the sort then.
Fri 11/11/05 at 13:36
Regular
"@RichSmedley"
Posts: 10,009
gamesfreak wrote:

> When you drive you're not only responsible for yourself, but you're
> responsible for every other driver on the road, hence why
> carelessness isn't forgivable.

I always remember after I passed my driving test 8 years ago the last thing my driving instructor ever said to me was as he dropped me off at my house - "Remember when you drive you are in sole control of a potentially lethal weapon"

Those were his exact words and I remember them even after all this time.
Fri 11/11/05 at 12:59
Regular
"gsybe you!"
Posts: 18,825
How the hell would he survive getting hit by a train?! ^^
Fri 11/11/05 at 12:53
Regular
Posts: 10,364
Falling asleep at the wheel is irresponsible, regardless if he wanted "to see his family before they went to bed", you should only drive if you are fully aware and alert.

When you drive you're not only responsible for yourself, but you're responsible for every other driver on the road, hence why carelessness isn't forgivable.
Fri 11/11/05 at 11:20
Regular
"@RichSmedley"
Posts: 10,009
I see where this went now. My reply as per the Tony Blair thread:

Where's that great post gone? I clicked on reply and all I got was the above.

Anyway the thing about the train and yourself - it's about due care. The law expects us to act with due care at all times and if you are careless you are basically breaking this law.

I know you didn't mean for the barn to burn down and in your example (which I assume is based on Gary Hart) he didn't mean to career onto a railway track so I suppose you could say it's about being unlucky or not.

The current climate of suing everyone doesn't help. I myself work in a school and trips and outings are now at a bare minimum as teachers are too afraid of the consequences if anything happens.
Fri 11/11/05 at 10:20
Regular
Posts: 18,185
what?
Fri 11/11/05 at 09:56
Regular
"Pouch Ape"
Posts: 14,499
*sigh*

What did Neal do now?
Fri 11/11/05 at 09:47
Regular
Posts: 18,185
Sticking with the prison issue can I present another issue?

I accidentally, but stupidly, assisted in the burning down of a barn with a compensation claim reaching £200,000. I got 200 hours community service and a £2000 compensation payment.

During this incident my solicitor and PC Dave Lofting of the Huntingdon Police said to me "If it was a shed you wouldn't be in trouble".

So basically, I am a criminal because it was a lot of money I accidentally destroyed, I am not a criminal if the money was low??? But the crime is exactly the same. If I had burnt down something worth little I am not a reckless arsonist but if it is worth a lot I am???

How flawed is this.

During my community service I have met a chap named Steve. He is a very very nice guy, he helped me build a ramp (actually I helped him but lets not bicker). His wife left him and threw him out the house. 2 of his children want to live with him so that has made him feel better. The sad thing is he hasn't a home. He contacted the council and they are still, 3 months after he was kicked out, looking for a place to live. (he has a very small income).

Anyway the council understood that he was living in his car. One day after a mates birthday he comes back to his car after 4-5 drinks. He falls asleep only to be awoken by a knock at the window. He is breathalised and is given 100 hours community service for being "drunk in charge of a vehicle". The council wrote a letter explaining to the court that it was his home. They didn't care.

Now from both of these cases you could say neither me, nor steve are criminals. I was an idiot but hardly deserving of the label "criminal". Steve certainly isn't.

But then... lets take this example further. Much further.


One night a man is coming home from a late bussiness meeting. Very very late. Missing his family he tries to get back before his wife and kids go to sleep. He isn't speeding, but he is tired, normally he'd have stopped by now but he is but a few miles from home. He may as well continue.

But disaster strikes, he falls asleep. He drives off the road and onto a railway line. He is hit by a train. He survives. But 50 passangers do not. The man, when he comes around is devestated. He has killed so many people, he feels physically sick and can't begin to comprehend the damage he has done. Of course the judge has no choice but to send him to prison. A hardworking human being with a good family who has never been in trouble before goes to prison for a lengthy period of time.

The families of course believe it isn't enough. The judge, to some varying agree knows, that the man he sent to prison is no criminal. But a man who made a terrible mistake.

Looking at that incident and maybe some of you can relate to it. I have been in the car with many people who are driving home tired. From concerts or one day music festivals mainly. Worn out and exhausted my girlfriend drove 100's of miles home and nearly fell asleep. It could have been her, it could have been me... it could have been you.

Of course similar stories are found all the time involving drunk drivers.

What defines a criminal exactly?

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