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"Criminality"

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Fri 11/11/05 at 09:47
Regular
Posts: 18,185
Sticking with the prison issue can I present another issue?

I accidentally, but stupidly, assisted in the burning down of a barn with a compensation claim reaching £200,000. I got 200 hours community service and a £2000 compensation payment.

During this incident my solicitor and PC Dave Lofting of the Huntingdon Police said to me "If it was a shed you wouldn't be in trouble".

So basically, I am a criminal because it was a lot of money I accidentally destroyed, I am not a criminal if the money was low??? But the crime is exactly the same. If I had burnt down something worth little I am not a reckless arsonist but if it is worth a lot I am???

How flawed is this.

During my community service I have met a chap named Steve. He is a very very nice guy, he helped me build a ramp (actually I helped him but lets not bicker). His wife left him and threw him out the house. 2 of his children want to live with him so that has made him feel better. The sad thing is he hasn't a home. He contacted the council and they are still, 3 months after he was kicked out, looking for a place to live. (he has a very small income).

Anyway the council understood that he was living in his car. One day after a mates birthday he comes back to his car after 4-5 drinks. He falls asleep only to be awoken by a knock at the window. He is breathalised and is given 100 hours community service for being "drunk in charge of a vehicle". The council wrote a letter explaining to the court that it was his home. They didn't care.

Now from both of these cases you could say neither me, nor steve are criminals. I was an idiot but hardly deserving of the label "criminal". Steve certainly isn't.

But then... lets take this example further. Much further.


One night a man is coming home from a late bussiness meeting. Very very late. Missing his family he tries to get back before his wife and kids go to sleep. He isn't speeding, but he is tired, normally he'd have stopped by now but he is but a few miles from home. He may as well continue.

But disaster strikes, he falls asleep. He drives off the road and onto a railway line. He is hit by a train. He survives. But 50 passangers do not. The man, when he comes around is devestated. He has killed so many people, he feels physically sick and can't begin to comprehend the damage he has done. Of course the judge has no choice but to send him to prison. A hardworking human being with a good family who has never been in trouble before goes to prison for a lengthy period of time.

The families of course believe it isn't enough. The judge, to some varying agree knows, that the man he sent to prison is no criminal. But a man who made a terrible mistake.

Looking at that incident and maybe some of you can relate to it. I have been in the car with many people who are driving home tired. From concerts or one day music festivals mainly. Worn out and exhausted my girlfriend drove 100's of miles home and nearly fell asleep. It could have been her, it could have been me... it could have been you.

Of course similar stories are found all the time involving drunk drivers.

What defines a criminal exactly?
Mon 14/11/05 at 15:03
Regular
"@RichSmedley"
Posts: 10,009
Maolin Shonks wrote:

> I doubt very much whether any of you always drive within the speed
> limit.

I usually find myself driving at about 5mph above the speed limit. Not intentionally but you can't continually check your speed.

> I doubt very very much whether any of you have never taken a
> piddle up a wall in town after a heavy drinking night.

Many a wall has my piddle soaked into it.

> I very much doubt you all only started drinking at 18.

14. Hic.

> What he's clearly saying is that people aren't perfect, and just
> because we aren't perfect that doesn't make us criminals.

Agreed I think a certain amount of it has to do with luck.
Mon 14/11/05 at 14:02
Regular
"respect my che"
Posts: 21
ßora† §agdiyeV wrote:
> Dringo wrote:
>
> Come on how can no-one sympathise with that situation?
>
> I don't think the relatives of the passengers that were killed on
> that train, de-railed by a car that was driven onto the tracks by
> someone who fell asleep, would sympathise.
>
> If you drive with the knowledge that you are very tired, you are
> Driving without due care and attention. If you aren't fit to
> drive, you shouldn't be on the road, whether it is intoxication or
> fatigue.
>
> Killing or injuring someone through ignorance or recklessness is
> still a crime. If someone dies because of your ill judgement,
> regardless of what guise it takes, you should be punished.

I doubt very much whether any of you always drive within the speed limit. I doubt very very much whether any of you have never taken a piddle up a wall in town after a heavy drinking night. I very much doubt you all only started drinking at 18. We're all criminals together, and I can totally see Dringo's point of view. All of you sit here on the fence pretending like 'the time suits the crime' but alas we all know different deep down.

I've been stung myself for 80 quid and 3 points for doing 46mph in a 30mph limit, whilst totally disorientated in the center of Manchester on a 4 lane road with little in the way of signposting. YOU ARE DRIVING OFFENDER! No, I'm just lost.

What he's clearly saying is that people aren't perfect, and just because we aren't perfect that doesn't make us criminals.
Mon 14/11/05 at 12:10
Regular
"@RichSmedley"
Posts: 10,009
monkey_man wrote:
> Reckless endangerment?
>
> Is that what happened at Kings Cross? I thought there was an
> electrical fire on the escalators?
>
> No, quite right - discarded match. But the possibility of
> arson was never ruled out.

It is possible that someone deliberately dropped a match or cigarette in the hope of setting fire to the escalators but Kings Cross was really a freak occurance. Someone lighting a cigarette with a match and then dropping it or dropping a finished cigarette and then it going between the smallest of gaps and landing on fluff and grease that then catches fire and turns into an inferno is a chance in a million. But it happened.

Whether that person meant to do it or not defines my opinion of what a criminal is. If they meant to do it in a sick way to cause loss of life they are a criminal. If they were just simply a person lighting or discarding a cigarette they are not a criminal just wreckless.
Mon 14/11/05 at 11:41
Regular
"gsybe you!"
Posts: 18,825
Dringo, you are a criminal because you broke the law. Tough sh*t. You may not be evil, but you broke a rule. Sorry m8!
Mon 14/11/05 at 11:35
Regular
"Lisan al-Gaib"
Posts: 7,093
> Dringo wrote:
>
> But I'd overhaul what defines a criminal. I deserve that
> "punishment" or as I see it "repayment"... but I
> don't accept the label of criminal. I'm hardly an evil man with the
> intent to harm.

You were charged with an offense, you went to court and you were found guilty. Simple no?

Your wishes regarding acceptance of a label are utterly meaningless.

Deal with it.
Mon 14/11/05 at 11:19
Regular
"Laughingstock"
Posts: 3,522
I've got a Police record... Message in a Bottle.

skedaddles
Mon 14/11/05 at 09:42
Regular
"Pouch Ape"
Posts: 14,499
Reckless endangerment?

Is that what happened at Kings Cross? I thought there was an electrical fire on the escalators?

EDIT: No, quite right - discarded match. But the possibility of arson was never ruled out:

[URL]http://www.firetactics.com/KINGSCROSS.htm[/URL]
Mon 14/11/05 at 09:38
Regular
"@RichSmedley"
Posts: 10,009
monkey_man wrote:

> Your examples are flawed because none of them relate to arson.

How about the Kings Cross disaster? Someone dropped a match or cigarette and killed lots of people unintentionally. Are they a criminal?
Mon 14/11/05 at 09:29
Regular
"Pouch Ape"
Posts: 14,499
Dringo wrote:
> The Jamie Bulger killers and I fit into the same "criminal"
> bracket.
>
> How the hell is that right?

It's a very wide bracket, as it encompasses every single person that ever committed a criminal offence. They did what they did at a very young age - young enough to afford the notion that they weren't fully aware of the consequences.

How old were you when you committed arson?

EDIT: I can't believe you've started a thread aimed at seeking some sort of justification for clearing your conscience, when you should rightly feel guilty and be punished.

Your examples are flawed because none of them relate to arson.
Mon 14/11/05 at 09:22
Regular
"you've got a beard"
Posts: 7,442
Dringo wrote:
> He is hit by a train. He survives.

bloody volvo drivers.

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