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Everybody has down-days yes. Down-years though? I know Beckham had an "ok" game last night, but lets face it, it was against Azerbaijan. Do you think he should be dropped from the England first-team and stripped of the captaincy?
Beckham has done jack for England (and I guess to an extent his club team) since "the" qualifying game against Greece.
I admire him for the way he flipped being a public hate figure around to being the most loved footballer in the country, from being a petulant child on the pitch to being a man and leading by example. However, saying that Beckham still deserves to be in the side at this moment in time just because of his past achievements is poppycock.
Yes, David Beckham does have a killer cross on him. Or at least he did.
Yes, David Beckham can whip in a brilliant dead-ball. Or at least he could.
Why was Beckham excelling in these areas? Practice. What happens when you get less practice? You lose your talent (or it diminishes at least).
When Beckham moved to Real Madrid that was the start of the end of his brilliance. He was switched into the centre or midfield because of the range of his passing. Fair enough. You tell me though, how often would you see a central midfielder getting to the final third of the field and whipping in a killer cross for a team-mate arriving in the box?
Beckham was known for his great engine too, the fact that he gave his all for England, leading by example, chasing balls down and getting in the thick of the action. Even players with limited skill (take Kevin Kilbane at Everton for example) who play in this kind of way are revered by the fans because they sense the importance of a win and the show of determination makes people happy. On far too few occasions though Beckham has drifted through a game, relying on his past achievements and knowing that no matter how badly he plays he will still start the next international match. Is it because he is irreplaceable? Is it because we don't have anyone up to his standard to play on the right wing? Is it because everyone looks at Beckham when they're on the pitch and thinks "he's showing me how I should be playing"? OR is it because Beckham is the captain, the most famous English footballer, the "nice guy", the money-maker andthe face of English Football all over the world?
How many times have you seen asians walking to an England game wearing England shirts bearing the Beckham name? Now flip that and ask how many England fans are likely to get "Beckham" on the back of their shirts as opposed to the likes of Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen... Terry?
If any one of the first four in htat list were injured, do you think they would be missed as much as Beckham? I know I certainly do.
Beckham living on his past glories is like somebody saying that Manchester United should bring back George Best because once.. back in the day, he was a superstar. Its like somebody paying 25m for Thuram, who is clearly not the player he once was.
Beckham has a good passing range, yes this is true.
Does he have a good eye for goal? His record suggests no.
Can he tackle well? See for yourself and you will realise its not one of his strong points.
Can he head a ball?
Does he have electric pace to take him past a full-back?
Does he have the strength and power to rely on when he's too tired to use his "pace"?
Can he dribble through 2 players to deliver a pass to a team-mate or a shot on goal?
The fact remains that if we started playing Michael Owen or Shaun Wright-Phillips or Frank Lampard or (Goodness help me) Keiron Dyer on the wing they would probably do as good a job as Beckham right now. Beckham has no competition for his place as its cemented. We've only just recently seen him being substituted during games - before say the last 4 games he was probably guaranteed to finish the 90mins whereas someone like Rooney I don't think has managed to complete one 90-minute match for England yet.
Familiarity breeds contempt they say, but I would still rather have Gary Neville as England right-back because he does his job perfectly and the greatest compliment you can say is that you hardly ever notice him when he's playing.
Beckham however, is another matter altogether.
T
Beckham has done jack for England (and I guess to an extent his club team) since "the" qualifying game against Greece.
I admire him for the way he flipped being a public hate figure around to being the most loved footballer in the country, from being a petulant child on the pitch to being a man and leading by example. However, saying that Beckham still deserves to be in the side at this moment in time just because of his past achievements is poppycock.
Yes, David Beckham does have a killer cross on him. Or at least he did.
Yes, David Beckham can whip in a brilliant dead-ball. Or at least he could.
Why was Beckham excelling in these areas? Practice. What happens when you get less practice? You lose your talent (or it diminishes at least).
When Beckham moved to Real Madrid that was the start of the end of his brilliance. He was switched into the centre or midfield because of the range of his passing. Fair enough. You tell me though, how often would you see a central midfielder getting to the final third of the field and whipping in a killer cross for a team-mate arriving in the box?
Beckham was known for his great engine too, the fact that he gave his all for England, leading by example, chasing balls down and getting in the thick of the action. Even players with limited skill (take Kevin Kilbane at Everton for example) who play in this kind of way are revered by the fans because they sense the importance of a win and the show of determination makes people happy. On far too few occasions though Beckham has drifted through a game, relying on his past achievements and knowing that no matter how badly he plays he will still start the next international match. Is it because he is irreplaceable? Is it because we don't have anyone up to his standard to play on the right wing? Is it because everyone looks at Beckham when they're on the pitch and thinks "he's showing me how I should be playing"? OR is it because Beckham is the captain, the most famous English footballer, the "nice guy", the money-maker andthe face of English Football all over the world?
How many times have you seen asians walking to an England game wearing England shirts bearing the Beckham name? Now flip that and ask how many England fans are likely to get "Beckham" on the back of their shirts as opposed to the likes of Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen... Terry?
If any one of the first four in htat list were injured, do you think they would be missed as much as Beckham? I know I certainly do.
Beckham living on his past glories is like somebody saying that Manchester United should bring back George Best because once.. back in the day, he was a superstar. Its like somebody paying 25m for Thuram, who is clearly not the player he once was.
Beckham has a good passing range, yes this is true.
Does he have a good eye for goal? His record suggests no.
Can he tackle well? See for yourself and you will realise its not one of his strong points.
Can he head a ball?
Does he have electric pace to take him past a full-back?
Does he have the strength and power to rely on when he's too tired to use his "pace"?
Can he dribble through 2 players to deliver a pass to a team-mate or a shot on goal?
The fact remains that if we started playing Michael Owen or Shaun Wright-Phillips or Frank Lampard or (Goodness help me) Keiron Dyer on the wing they would probably do as good a job as Beckham right now. Beckham has no competition for his place as its cemented. We've only just recently seen him being substituted during games - before say the last 4 games he was probably guaranteed to finish the 90mins whereas someone like Rooney I don't think has managed to complete one 90-minute match for England yet.
Familiarity breeds contempt they say, but I would still rather have Gary Neville as England right-back because he does his job perfectly and the greatest compliment you can say is that you hardly ever notice him when he's playing.
Beckham however, is another matter altogether.
T
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I see what you're saying, duly noted.
As for playing Heskey instead of Owen... are you having a laugh? There would have been a public outcry if Heskey had played in front of Owen (who would have been dropped for apprently no reason at all). If the likes of Beckham deserve to play then how can you justify dropping Owen for someone with Heskey's "talent"? Surely the presence of Rooney up front gave enough aerial prowess and strength there anyway. Playing him up fron with Heskey would have been like playing two of the same player right next to each other - very rarely works.
T
As for playing Heskey instead of Owen... are you having a laugh? There would have been a public outcry if Heskey had played in front of Owen (who would have been dropped for apprently no reason at all). If the likes of Beckham deserve to play then how can you justify dropping Owen for someone with Heskey's "talent"? Surely the presence of Rooney up front gave enough aerial prowess and strength there anyway. Playing him up fron with Heskey would have been like playing two of the same player right next to each other - very rarely works.
T
tken wrote:
> Should I withold my opinions from now on then?
Nope not at all, just space them out a bit. Start the topic and keep it going with posts.
> I apologise for putting together something which you find so
> comprehensive and boring.
Comprehensive is fine but instead of being a starting point it was like a party political broadcast. Let me ask you this how much more have you got left to say on the subject that wont be replying to other peoples posts.
Anyway i like the topic.
> Should I withold my opinions from now on then?
Nope not at all, just space them out a bit. Start the topic and keep it going with posts.
> I apologise for putting together something which you find so
> comprehensive and boring.
Comprehensive is fine but instead of being a starting point it was like a party political broadcast. Let me ask you this how much more have you got left to say on the subject that wont be replying to other peoples posts.
Anyway i like the topic.
*Highly Excitable* wrote:
> JFH wrote:
> if Owen had been on better form...
>
> Any form at all would have been appreciated...
Owen was simply the wrong man for the job. A manager with Sven's supposed expertise should realise that at international level at least, simply picking your best 11 players isn;t enough. There will be certain players in your squad who are better suited to certain games. How many times were all of you cursing repeatedly Owen's lack of height as another cross floated over his head?
Whilst I wouldn't want him in the team against any team with any kind of skill about them, last nights game was tailor-made for Emile Heskey.
> JFH wrote:
> if Owen had been on better form...
>
> Any form at all would have been appreciated...
Owen was simply the wrong man for the job. A manager with Sven's supposed expertise should realise that at international level at least, simply picking your best 11 players isn;t enough. There will be certain players in your squad who are better suited to certain games. How many times were all of you cursing repeatedly Owen's lack of height as another cross floated over his head?
Whilst I wouldn't want him in the team against any team with any kind of skill about them, last nights game was tailor-made for Emile Heskey.
Flock wrote:
> I got fed up reading half way through that, i think the idea is to put
> a topic up and let people talk about it, you will have already
> covered a lot of what can be said. Anyway..
> If it was on current form alone then no but there is always potential
> for him to do something even if he's playing badly. I think maybe
> after the world cup it will become more of an issue.
Should I withold my opinions from now on then?
If you disagree with anything that I've said you're more than welcome to talk about that. If you agree simply say so. If you have somehting else to add to the discussion then feel free.
I apologise for putting together something which you find so comprehensive and boring.
T
> I got fed up reading half way through that, i think the idea is to put
> a topic up and let people talk about it, you will have already
> covered a lot of what can be said. Anyway..
> If it was on current form alone then no but there is always potential
> for him to do something even if he's playing badly. I think maybe
> after the world cup it will become more of an issue.
Should I withold my opinions from now on then?
If you disagree with anything that I've said you're more than welcome to talk about that. If you agree simply say so. If you have somehting else to add to the discussion then feel free.
I apologise for putting together something which you find so comprehensive and boring.
T
JFH wrote:
> if Owen had been on better form...
Any form at all would have been appreciated...
> if Owen had been on better form...
Any form at all would have been appreciated...
I'd like to see David Beckham dropped.
On his head.
Preferrably from a great height.
On his head.
Preferrably from a great height.
I got fed up reading half way through that, i think the idea is to put a topic up and let people talk about it, you will have already covered a lot of what can be said. Anyway..
If it was on current form alone then no but there is always potential for him to do something even if he's playing badly. I think maybe after the world cup it will become more of an issue.
If it was on current form alone then no but there is always potential for him to do something even if he's playing badly. I think maybe after the world cup it will become more of an issue.
JFH wrote:
> Stryke wrote:
> Steven Gerrard. Wayne Rooney. Joe Cole. Gary Neville. Ashley Cole.
> The
> entire team apart from Mikey.
>
> All had better games than Beckham. I would be my normal angry at
> Beckham, but I'm not English and I'm too happy that Joey has finally
> made it to be angry.
>
> Gerrard barely did anything all night. Fair enough, he got a goal but
> he even admitted that he miss hit that. Rooney had chances to score
> but cocked them up like Owen, however, Rooney was far better than
> Owen because he made quite a few good runs with the ball and set up
> the first goal. Joe Cole played well and is the only other person
> that was on good form. Gary Neville and Ashley Cole were by no means
> bad but they didn't do anything particuarly special. Terry almost
> cost us a goal and against any other team we would have conceded a
> goal. Ferdinand, Lampard, and Robinson were all decent but Lampard
> and Ferdinand didn't seem to be on top form and Robinson didn't
> really have a chance to prove himself.
You say Rooney had chances but cocked them up? Um, directing headers that close to goal when the ball is coming fast (and behind you no less) is no mean feat. Neither is twisting your body to execute a perfect volley from the edge of the area and getting it on target, and let us not forget that he hit the post too.
Gerrard scored, mis-hit or not. He's supposed to be a holding midfielder.
Gary Neville and Ashley Cole are full-backs, what do you expect them to do, score 40-yard screamers? Considering that., I thought they played well. Neville was his usual consistent self and Ashley made some good overlapping runs and had some excellent link-up play with Joe.
Robinson had more opportunity than we'd have thought to show how good he was. The save when in a one-on-one situation so late in the game (having been a pectator for most of it) was brilliant. If you've ever played in goal with not much to do for a while you'd realise how hard it is.
Terry had a poor game by his standards yes, but against a team like Azerbaijan you can afford to take risks like what he did and still be confident that you'll get away with it.
T
> Stryke wrote:
> Steven Gerrard. Wayne Rooney. Joe Cole. Gary Neville. Ashley Cole.
> The
> entire team apart from Mikey.
>
> All had better games than Beckham. I would be my normal angry at
> Beckham, but I'm not English and I'm too happy that Joey has finally
> made it to be angry.
>
> Gerrard barely did anything all night. Fair enough, he got a goal but
> he even admitted that he miss hit that. Rooney had chances to score
> but cocked them up like Owen, however, Rooney was far better than
> Owen because he made quite a few good runs with the ball and set up
> the first goal. Joe Cole played well and is the only other person
> that was on good form. Gary Neville and Ashley Cole were by no means
> bad but they didn't do anything particuarly special. Terry almost
> cost us a goal and against any other team we would have conceded a
> goal. Ferdinand, Lampard, and Robinson were all decent but Lampard
> and Ferdinand didn't seem to be on top form and Robinson didn't
> really have a chance to prove himself.
You say Rooney had chances but cocked them up? Um, directing headers that close to goal when the ball is coming fast (and behind you no less) is no mean feat. Neither is twisting your body to execute a perfect volley from the edge of the area and getting it on target, and let us not forget that he hit the post too.
Gerrard scored, mis-hit or not. He's supposed to be a holding midfielder.
Gary Neville and Ashley Cole are full-backs, what do you expect them to do, score 40-yard screamers? Considering that., I thought they played well. Neville was his usual consistent self and Ashley made some good overlapping runs and had some excellent link-up play with Joe.
Robinson had more opportunity than we'd have thought to show how good he was. The save when in a one-on-one situation so late in the game (having been a pectator for most of it) was brilliant. If you've ever played in goal with not much to do for a while you'd realise how hard it is.
Terry had a poor game by his standards yes, but against a team like Azerbaijan you can afford to take risks like what he did and still be confident that you'll get away with it.
T
Stryke wrote:
> Steven Gerrard. Wayne Rooney. Joe Cole. Gary Neville. Ashley Cole. The
> entire team apart from Mikey.
>
> All had better games than Beckham. I would be my normal angry at
> Beckham, but I'm not English and I'm too happy that Joey has finally
> made it to be angry.
Gerrard barely did anything all night. Fair enough, he got a goal but he even admitted that he miss hit that. Rooney had chances to score but cocked them up like Owen, however, Rooney was far better than Owen because he made quite a few good runs with the ball and set up the first goal. Joe Cole played well and is the only other person that was on good form. Gary Neville and Ashley Cole were by no means bad but they didn't do anything particuarly special. Terry almost cost us a goal and against any other team we would have conceded a goal. Ferdinand, Lampard, and Robinson were all decent but Lampard and Ferdinand didn't seem to be on top form and Robinson didn't really have a chance to prove himself.
> Steven Gerrard. Wayne Rooney. Joe Cole. Gary Neville. Ashley Cole. The
> entire team apart from Mikey.
>
> All had better games than Beckham. I would be my normal angry at
> Beckham, but I'm not English and I'm too happy that Joey has finally
> made it to be angry.
Gerrard barely did anything all night. Fair enough, he got a goal but he even admitted that he miss hit that. Rooney had chances to score but cocked them up like Owen, however, Rooney was far better than Owen because he made quite a few good runs with the ball and set up the first goal. Joe Cole played well and is the only other person that was on good form. Gary Neville and Ashley Cole were by no means bad but they didn't do anything particuarly special. Terry almost cost us a goal and against any other team we would have conceded a goal. Ferdinand, Lampard, and Robinson were all decent but Lampard and Ferdinand didn't seem to be on top form and Robinson didn't really have a chance to prove himself.
JFH wrote:
> What more can you ask for?
For him to do it consistently against teams that aren't over 100 places lower than England in the rankings
> What more can you ask for?
For him to do it consistently against teams that aren't over 100 places lower than England in the rankings
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