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"Heard the joke about the Church full of homophobes?"

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Thu 31/07/03 at 15:16
Regular
Posts: 787
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3108349.stm

This, if you ask me, is something of a medieval attitude, and only goes to show that Catholicism (sp?) has a dwindling place alongside modern society.
Fri 08/08/03 at 18:39
Regular
"smile, it's free"
Posts: 6,460
Religions are entitled to their beliefs. There's no reason to change them just because they are 'outdated' - that's missing the point. Suggesting the start accepting homosexual marriages just because it's socially acceptable these days is no better than suggesting that the creation story be rewritten in light of the theory of evolution.

Marriage has always been a religious ceremony, and in our country is naturally associated with the church. State weddings are only a relatively recent arrival.

So with that in mind, I think it's perfectly acceptable that the church complain about a ceremony naturally accociated with them which goes against their beliefs.

Note that the church aren't exactly saying homosexuals should be burnt at the stake. Simply not married, that's all. An alternative legally recognised ceremony with a different name wouldn't cause the fuss.
Thu 07/08/03 at 23:18
Regular
"bearded n dangerous"
Posts: 754
>
> It isn't (or wasn't) regarded as a natural union - there will be no
> standard 'family unit'. A cynic might suggest that the real reason is
> that it's highly unlikely to create new christians...

Well, let's face it, any monogamous relationship isn't a 'natural' relationship - hence why most species don't mate for life.

> It also tells you to that you should love all of God's creatures, but
> you're not allowed to marry them, either.

Personally, I don't need a religion to tell me that sleeping with animals is wrong. I've got Jerry Springer for that.

> The idea that marriages should be between people of the opposite sex
> has been a fundamental feature to all the major world religions for as
> long as thay've been around. If their views are all so obviously and
> fundamentally wrong, why hasn't this issue been resolved hundreds of
> years ago?

Yeah, and the reason for that, as you referred to above, is to ensure continuation of the society - perfectly natural response. However, in today's western world, we've got no problem with that - we're not in danger of dying out: far, far from it. So the rationale behind that is no longer valid or relevant.
Thu 07/08/03 at 21:04
Regular
"smile, it's free"
Posts: 6,460
Jonman wrote:
> OK, so I've read everything in here. One question I'd like answered is
> precisely why gay sex, love and marriage is wrong (according to the
> Catholic church). And no "because the Bible says it is" - I
> need a justification for _why_ the Bible says it is.

It isn't (or wasn't) regarded as a natural union - there will be no standard 'family unit'. A cynic might suggest that the real reason is that it's highly unlikely to create new christians...

> I can't understand why a religion that espouses loving thy neighbour
> and every man and woman on the planet, is against two people loving
> each other.

It also tells you to that you should love all of God's creatures, but you're not allowed to marry them, either.


The idea that marriages should be between people of the opposite sex has been a fundamental feature to all the major world religions for as long as thay've been around. If their views are all so obviously and fundamentally wrong, why hasn't this issue been resolved hundreds of years ago?
Tue 05/08/03 at 20:13
Regular
"bearded n dangerous"
Posts: 754
Tue 05/08/03 at 16:57
Regular
"Wanking Mong"
Posts: 4,884
Now, the article below may well turn out to be utter toss. But even if it does, it's worth remembering the history of sexual abuse within the Catholic Church in modern times (to say nothing of it's multitude of historical failings; the Borgia Pope, Alexander VI, was a man who I'd like to have partied with!). Especially when they try to say what is right and wrong in the bedroom...

A Houston lawyer has discovered a 40-year-old document supposedly explaining how to deal with sex abuse in the Catholic Church. Some say the document is a cover-up for the church. Houston attorney Daniel Shea says this document could shake the foundation of the Catholic Church.
He says he received it from a clergyman in Germany who has close dealings with the Vatican. And he believes this could be the smoking gun that could prove every Catholic diocese in the world was under direct order from the Vatican to keep allegations of sexual abuse a secret.
"And I'm saying, my God, what has happened to the Catholic Church?" exclaimed Shea.

Houston attorney Daniel Shea says a document from the Vatican dated back to 1962 calls for secret hearings within the clergy to deal with any accusations against the priesthood about sexual abuse of a minor.

Shea said, "It explains how it is that you can have an internal church trial, in which you can never convict a priest. The thing is rigged."

The very first instruction on the document says "this text is to be diligently stored in the secret archives of the curia as strictly confidential. Nor is it to be published nor added to with any commentaries."

"The oath says that everyone who participates in this proceeding has to keep this under threat of excommunication," explained Shea.

Shea says the document acknowledges sexual abuse of a minor as a crime, and says current documents from the Catholic Church still refer to these secret hearings.

"They understand fully that this is criminal conduct, yet they're hiding it by conducting secret church trials," he said.

We asked the Diocese of Galveston-Houston to respond to the latest revelation of this document.

"Bishop Fiorenza says he has no knowledge of this 1962 document, he has no recollection of it," said Annette Taylor. "This was 40 years ago, and he was not even a Bishop at that time."

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops says the 1962 document is only type-specific to what happens during the sacrament of confession, in which what is told to a priest is kept confidential. However, Daniel Shea says this could be the beginning of a plethora of criminal suits against the Catholic Church.
(Copyright 2003, KTRK-TV)
Mon 04/08/03 at 21:42
Moderator
"possibly impossible"
Posts: 24,985
Firebrand wrote:
> But then, one day, you think, "I'm a bad man and shouldn't have
> done those awful things", and the gates of heaven will swing open
> and all of God's angels will greet you with open arms?
>

It's not supposed to be quite that simple. You have to absolve your sins, not just be feeling guilty. So, in other words, you make up for what you have done by doing something of equal or greater goodness for the rest of your life.

Of course, it's the bible not me that says this.
Mon 04/08/03 at 10:44
"Darth Vader 3442321"
Posts: 4,031
The Catholic church decreed that priests should be celebate because most priets who were married left their land (which is part of the Diocese) to their spouses. The Church got nothing. So they changed their "policy" to ensure that when Priests died they leave the Church their property.

I can't take anything they decree seriously and neither should anyone else. If Gay people want to get married or have sex or whatever, fine. People who wear frocks and pray for world peace (still waiting for that one) should be a little more tolerant towards other people, who have their own beliefs regarding life.
Mon 04/08/03 at 09:26
Posts: 643
pb wrote:
> Because you have to be sorry you committed them to be absolved.

Heh. that's crap. So someone can commit some attrocities, but as long as they repent, they share some space in paradise with people who spend their lives working to make other people's lives better.

Carpet bomb some asian villages.
Test chemical weapons on unsuspecting civilians.
Torture, main and kill your enemies and their families just to make yourself look hard.

But then, one day, you think, "I'm a bad man and shouldn't have done those awful things", and the gates of heaven will swing open and all of God's angels will greet you with open arms?

Sounds a bit silly to me.
Sun 03/08/03 at 17:11
Moderator
"possibly impossible"
Posts: 24,985
Goatboy wrote:
> and I did say "meh" and go fornicate in
> the sun.

I thought you learnt your lesson last time when it got burnt and shrivelled up...
Sun 03/08/03 at 12:40
Regular
"Infantalised Forums"
Posts: 23,089
And lo did August's "Religion is bad/No it isn't" discussion did come unto me, and I did say "meh" and go fornicate in the sun.

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