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These are just the sort of figures that Bill Gates does not want to hear. Japan has the largest videogame base in the world and anyone who say's they are not worried about sales figures in Japan are lying. With over million PS2 units sold since its launch and 3 million in the last 4 months this is a massive market to conceded ground on. Xbox has never really recovered from it's scratching disc problem and the fact the Xbox is to big and clumsy for the Japanese market. GC is also in a spot of bother in its homeland with only 475,000 sales in the last 4 months, lack of software and more importantly no dvd capability have cost Nintendo dearly and there are rumours that the GC could be Nintendo's last console.
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My "old" PS2 has an expansion slot at the back and 2 USB's and a FireWire port - this predates XBox. Sony designed the PS2 to be expandible from the start.
With games machines often sold at break even or at a loss, the money can be made up from games sold. With the PC, this can not work , since "most" people don't buy a PC just for games.
With games machines often sold at break even or at a loss, the money can be made up from games sold. With the PC, this can not work , since "most" people don't buy a PC just for games.
Insane Bartender wrote:
> X-BOX sales are stunted because of an unatractive box and lack of
> decent software.
That I agree with 100%.
> However, it's worth noting that Sony are rushing to
> make new add-on components available for the PS2 since the XBOX specs
> were revealed.
Sony aren't doing this to play catch-up! It's been planned since before PS2 was launched, and before anyone had even heard of Xbox.
> And if people don't want it, why are they jumping up and down about
> the prospect of Sony making it for them?
Some people do, but from what I've read, most don't. Personally, I've never even bothered with online PC gaming, so I'm unlikely to bother with either Xbox or PS2 versions unless they offer something different or otherwise 'special'.
> Personally, I think the XBOX is a very expensive gamble, and it looks
> very much like it's starting to work.
I don't see it at the moment - but who knows?!
> I don't particularly agree on the price aspect of the argument, since
> it is all too often claimed that consoles are sold at a loss, if PCs
> were sold thusly, they would be much cheaper, easilly comparable to
> consoles.
PC's will never be sold like that, though. Consoles are sold cheaply because the money is made from the licensing on the games. If you buy a PC, you may never buy a game for it - so it can't be subsidised in the same way.
> That argument aside, if you know how to look, you can put a
> decent PC together for around £350 that doesn't really
> compromise on much.
True, but how many people out of the entire gaming community are willing to do that? With a console you have the ready-made machine for a low price. Now many people have the knowledge or will to build their own games console... though I have to admit that the prospect does provoke some interesting thoughts!
> And as for the user-friendly argument, well, the age of the computer
> illiterate is at an end
Sorry, but I can't agree with you there. I work in a company where the entire staff use PCs every day, and still have no idea what they're doing. They can follow a routine, sure - but the minute something goes wrong, they're lost. PC illiterate people are still in the majority.
> X-BOX sales are stunted because of an unatractive box and lack of
> decent software.
That I agree with 100%.
> However, it's worth noting that Sony are rushing to
> make new add-on components available for the PS2 since the XBOX specs
> were revealed.
Sony aren't doing this to play catch-up! It's been planned since before PS2 was launched, and before anyone had even heard of Xbox.
> And if people don't want it, why are they jumping up and down about
> the prospect of Sony making it for them?
Some people do, but from what I've read, most don't. Personally, I've never even bothered with online PC gaming, so I'm unlikely to bother with either Xbox or PS2 versions unless they offer something different or otherwise 'special'.
> Personally, I think the XBOX is a very expensive gamble, and it looks
> very much like it's starting to work.
I don't see it at the moment - but who knows?!
> I don't particularly agree on the price aspect of the argument, since
> it is all too often claimed that consoles are sold at a loss, if PCs
> were sold thusly, they would be much cheaper, easilly comparable to
> consoles.
PC's will never be sold like that, though. Consoles are sold cheaply because the money is made from the licensing on the games. If you buy a PC, you may never buy a game for it - so it can't be subsidised in the same way.
> That argument aside, if you know how to look, you can put a
> decent PC together for around £350 that doesn't really
> compromise on much.
True, but how many people out of the entire gaming community are willing to do that? With a console you have the ready-made machine for a low price. Now many people have the knowledge or will to build their own games console... though I have to admit that the prospect does provoke some interesting thoughts!
> And as for the user-friendly argument, well, the age of the computer
> illiterate is at an end
Sorry, but I can't agree with you there. I work in a company where the entire staff use PCs every day, and still have no idea what they're doing. They can follow a routine, sure - but the minute something goes wrong, they're lost. PC illiterate people are still in the majority.
If PC's intend to become more mainstream (so they can control your VCR or tv, etc) and better for 1st time users, that means more CPU power, memory, and more sophistication at the front end (next version of WinXP please!). We have already seen this in part with the latest versions of Windows. USB support, DVD, closer integration with the internet, System Restore features, etc. A few years back it was CD and Audio support.
As for the PS2 DVD movie playback feature - it does match a mid range DVD player ok. I can't tell the difference between the image - and both are connected to the same tv at the same time - so it's a fair comparison.
WòókieeMøn§†€® wrote:
> Have you considered the possibility that this is something which
> people don't want to happen, and consequently this could be why Xbox
> sales since launch have been comparatively stunted? And why even
> today, the PS2 continues to out-sell it comprehensively, even with the
> prospect of buying additional hardware to do what Xbox does as
> standard? (I just mention PS2 as it happens to be the market leader -
> it could of course be any system.)
X-BOX sales are stunted because of an unatractive box and lack of decent software. However, it's worth noting that Sony are rushing to make new add-on components available for the PS2 since the XBOX specs were revealed.
And if people don't want it, why are they jumping up and down about the prospect of Sony making it for them? Personally, I think the XBOX is a very expensive gamble, and it looks very much like it's starting to work.
> Over-all, console gaming is easier and cheaper to get into than PC
> gaming, and that's why so many people enjoy it. PC technology
> generally isn't geared towards user-friendly, easy and trouble-free
> gaming, and any company wishing to drag the market that way will have
> a tough time - which is why I hope Sony are very careful about where
> they go in the future.
I don't particularly agree on the price aspect of the argument, since it is all too often claimed that consoles are sold at a loss, if PCs were sold thusly, they would be much cheaper, easilly comparable to consoles. That argument aside, if you know how to look, you can put a decent PC together for around £350 that doesn't really compromise on much. I'm of course excluding the monitor, since consoles don't include the price of a TV.
And as for the user-friendly argument, well, the age of the computer illiterate is at an end, and as time goes by, the ability to use a PC will not only become more valuable to every person in the developed world, but also a standard high-school skill. It'll only be a few years before anyone who wants to can own a PC/console type thing and know full well how to use it and put up with it.
> I'm all for a single, central home entertainment system, but I'm not
> sure that basing it on PC technology is a wise idea. A grand idea
> such as this needs to be based on a new technology, and not something
> which at its very core is already more than 20 years out of date.
Looking at it from that sort of view, everything on the market is out of date, which isn't to say it's obsolete, it's just old. We don't have to re-invent the wheel every time we want to design a newer and better car. Neither would we have to reinvent entertainment technology to make a console that can do a PCs job (note that the opposite is already available).
> Have you considered the possibility that this is something which
> people don't want to happen, and consequently this could be why Xbox
> sales since launch have been comparatively stunted? And why even
> today, the PS2 continues to out-sell it comprehensively, even with the
> prospect of buying additional hardware to do what Xbox does as
> standard? (I just mention PS2 as it happens to be the market leader -
> it could of course be any system.)
X-BOX sales are stunted because of an unatractive box and lack of decent software. However, it's worth noting that Sony are rushing to make new add-on components available for the PS2 since the XBOX specs were revealed.
And if people don't want it, why are they jumping up and down about the prospect of Sony making it for them? Personally, I think the XBOX is a very expensive gamble, and it looks very much like it's starting to work.
> Over-all, console gaming is easier and cheaper to get into than PC
> gaming, and that's why so many people enjoy it. PC technology
> generally isn't geared towards user-friendly, easy and trouble-free
> gaming, and any company wishing to drag the market that way will have
> a tough time - which is why I hope Sony are very careful about where
> they go in the future.
I don't particularly agree on the price aspect of the argument, since it is all too often claimed that consoles are sold at a loss, if PCs were sold thusly, they would be much cheaper, easilly comparable to consoles. That argument aside, if you know how to look, you can put a decent PC together for around £350 that doesn't really compromise on much. I'm of course excluding the monitor, since consoles don't include the price of a TV.
And as for the user-friendly argument, well, the age of the computer illiterate is at an end, and as time goes by, the ability to use a PC will not only become more valuable to every person in the developed world, but also a standard high-school skill. It'll only be a few years before anyone who wants to can own a PC/console type thing and know full well how to use it and put up with it.
> I'm all for a single, central home entertainment system, but I'm not
> sure that basing it on PC technology is a wise idea. A grand idea
> such as this needs to be based on a new technology, and not something
> which at its very core is already more than 20 years out of date.
Looking at it from that sort of view, everything on the market is out of date, which isn't to say it's obsolete, it's just old. We don't have to re-invent the wheel every time we want to design a newer and better car. Neither would we have to reinvent entertainment technology to make a console that can do a PCs job (note that the opposite is already available).
Re: If Apple made a console........ Back in the mid 90's they nearly did - it was called the Pippin it think. It was 32bit CD like the PS, but they eventually saw the Sony steam roller trundling down the road towards them and gave up on the idea (or perhaps they couldn't afford to make it).
Into the far future, the Sony position may not be as safe. Questions about the type of hardware (ie, true console or PC component based) will need to be sorted. And the broadband issue will also play a part - i still don't think everyone is going to get broadband where they live. So do they axe a disc system and take a risk on a broadband terminal style box, or stick with the current idea's.
But then, we must not forget the popularity factor. The best tech does not always become the "standard". Popularity and image are very important today - to the point where people will by a machine that is not as good as another. This combined with price will play as big a part in Sony's future success or failure as the future machines and software will.
Into the far future, the Sony position may not be as safe. Questions about the type of hardware (ie, true console or PC component based) will need to be sorted. And the broadband issue will also play a part - i still don't think everyone is going to get broadband where they live. So do they axe a disc system and take a risk on a broadband terminal style box, or stick with the current idea's.
But then, we must not forget the popularity factor. The best tech does not always become the "standard". Popularity and image are very important today - to the point where people will by a machine that is not as good as another. This combined with price will play as big a part in Sony's future success or failure as the future machines and software will.
Insane Bartender wrote:
> Microsoft are playing a different game. They've ingeniously
> accelerated the shift from traditional consoles to PC oriented and
> online gaming by offering capabilities other consoles lacked. It's now
> only a matter of time before consoles literally resemble PCs, and that
> plays right into MicroSofts hands as lord and masters of the PC
> operating system. You just can't see the wood for the trees can you?
Have you considered the possibility that this is something which people don't want to happen, and consequently this could be why Xbox sales since launch have been comparatively stunted? And why even today, the PS2 continues to out-sell it comprehensively, even with the prospect of buying additional hardware to do what Xbox does as standard? (I just mention PS2 as it happens to be the market leader - it could of course be any system.)
Over-all, console gaming is easier and cheaper to get into than PC gaming, and that's why so many people enjoy it. PC technology generally isn't geared towards user-friendly, easy and trouble-free gaming, and any company wishing to drag the market that way will have a tough time - which is why I hope Sony are very careful about where they go in the future.
I'm all for a single, central home entertainment system, but I'm not sure that basing it on PC technology is a wise idea. A grand idea such as this needs to be based on a new technology, and not something which at its very core is already more than 20 years out of date.
> Microsoft are playing a different game. They've ingeniously
> accelerated the shift from traditional consoles to PC oriented and
> online gaming by offering capabilities other consoles lacked. It's now
> only a matter of time before consoles literally resemble PCs, and that
> plays right into MicroSofts hands as lord and masters of the PC
> operating system. You just can't see the wood for the trees can you?
Have you considered the possibility that this is something which people don't want to happen, and consequently this could be why Xbox sales since launch have been comparatively stunted? And why even today, the PS2 continues to out-sell it comprehensively, even with the prospect of buying additional hardware to do what Xbox does as standard? (I just mention PS2 as it happens to be the market leader - it could of course be any system.)
Over-all, console gaming is easier and cheaper to get into than PC gaming, and that's why so many people enjoy it. PC technology generally isn't geared towards user-friendly, easy and trouble-free gaming, and any company wishing to drag the market that way will have a tough time - which is why I hope Sony are very careful about where they go in the future.
I'm all for a single, central home entertainment system, but I'm not sure that basing it on PC technology is a wise idea. A grand idea such as this needs to be based on a new technology, and not something which at its very core is already more than 20 years out of date.
Insane Bartender wrote:
> Dave RJR wrote:
> Like i said in other posts, Nintendo and MS are just fighting to
> stay
> alive right now.
>
> Fighting to stay alive? I'm assuming you don't know just how big these
> companies are then? Think about it from another perspective, if the
> PS2 had failed, Sony would have been crippled, whereas if the XBOX
> fails, I doubt Billy boy Gates will give a flying fart about it.
>
> They cant take on Sony from where they are. They are
> just scratching around for the few users who didn't get a PS2 and
> don't wan't a PS2 (plus a handful that have more than one machine).
>
> 6 billion people on this planet, how many of them own PS2s? So how
The trouble with the Xbox now is it has to much in common with the PC and peolpe don't like it, they go to work and work on computers that have P4 chips inside and say why should I buy a Xbox which is only a mid ranged PC with a P3 chip inside. Then there is the bug issue how many people have trouble with there windows software and running games on there PC because of compatiliblity problems. I am glad that PC gaming is around because that is what has made the Consoles ease of use system such a sales winner.
> many people are there left to sell to? The market is nowhere near
> saturation, you have no idea what you're talking about.
>
> Both will shift more machines during Xmas 02, but so will Sony. So
> it
> wont make much difference anyway. Rather ironic MS is talking about
> future projects like XBox 2, 3, and 4.
>
> Microsoft are playing a different game. They've ingeniously
> accelerated the shift from traditional consoles to PC oriented and
> online gaming by offering capabilities other consoles lacked. It's now
> only a matter of time before consoles literally resemble PCs, and that
> plays right into MicroSofts hands as lord and masters of the PC
> operating system. You just can't see the wood for the trees can you?
>
> This is just to persuade us
> that they are not concerned about the number of Xbox machines out
> there, which is rubbish. The are concerned, as will be Nintendo. MS
> might well speak up a long term game, but equally there is a chance
> that the Xbox or GC may ultimately get the axe - due to poor
> numbers.
>
> No, GC is doing more than sufficiently to stay alive, and the XBOX is
> developing a strong following. In my opinion both will survive,
> Nintendo preserving the traditional style of console gaming with
> MicroSoft dragging Sony out of their depth into PC gaming.
>
> Ask yourself this: What will Sony give you for the PS3? They have
> three choices. 1) Fight MS into the new console market, where PC
> components and mods are the instruments of play, an arena over which
> they have almost no power. 2) Drop back with Nintendo into more
> traditional entertainment, which basically admits defeat against MS, a
> massive blow for them. 3) Stick with an imbetween machine which is
> neither full blooded console or budget PC, falling behind the stakes
> of both markets, and ultimately dropping out of their own.
>
> Sony have a lot of thinking to do. Their hands may well be deep in the
> console pie now, but their future is by no means certain.
> Dave RJR wrote:
> Like i said in other posts, Nintendo and MS are just fighting to
> stay
> alive right now.
>
> Fighting to stay alive? I'm assuming you don't know just how big these
> companies are then? Think about it from another perspective, if the
> PS2 had failed, Sony would have been crippled, whereas if the XBOX
> fails, I doubt Billy boy Gates will give a flying fart about it.
>
> They cant take on Sony from where they are. They are
> just scratching around for the few users who didn't get a PS2 and
> don't wan't a PS2 (plus a handful that have more than one machine).
>
> 6 billion people on this planet, how many of them own PS2s? So how
The trouble with the Xbox now is it has to much in common with the PC and peolpe don't like it, they go to work and work on computers that have P4 chips inside and say why should I buy a Xbox which is only a mid ranged PC with a P3 chip inside. Then there is the bug issue how many people have trouble with there windows software and running games on there PC because of compatiliblity problems. I am glad that PC gaming is around because that is what has made the Consoles ease of use system such a sales winner.
> many people are there left to sell to? The market is nowhere near
> saturation, you have no idea what you're talking about.
>
> Both will shift more machines during Xmas 02, but so will Sony. So
> it
> wont make much difference anyway. Rather ironic MS is talking about
> future projects like XBox 2, 3, and 4.
>
> Microsoft are playing a different game. They've ingeniously
> accelerated the shift from traditional consoles to PC oriented and
> online gaming by offering capabilities other consoles lacked. It's now
> only a matter of time before consoles literally resemble PCs, and that
> plays right into MicroSofts hands as lord and masters of the PC
> operating system. You just can't see the wood for the trees can you?
>
> This is just to persuade us
> that they are not concerned about the number of Xbox machines out
> there, which is rubbish. The are concerned, as will be Nintendo. MS
> might well speak up a long term game, but equally there is a chance
> that the Xbox or GC may ultimately get the axe - due to poor
> numbers.
>
> No, GC is doing more than sufficiently to stay alive, and the XBOX is
> developing a strong following. In my opinion both will survive,
> Nintendo preserving the traditional style of console gaming with
> MicroSoft dragging Sony out of their depth into PC gaming.
>
> Ask yourself this: What will Sony give you for the PS3? They have
> three choices. 1) Fight MS into the new console market, where PC
> components and mods are the instruments of play, an arena over which
> they have almost no power. 2) Drop back with Nintendo into more
> traditional entertainment, which basically admits defeat against MS, a
> massive blow for them. 3) Stick with an imbetween machine which is
> neither full blooded console or budget PC, falling behind the stakes
> of both markets, and ultimately dropping out of their own.
>
> Sony have a lot of thinking to do. Their hands may well be deep in the
> console pie now, but their future is by no means certain.
Dave RJR wrote:
> Like i said in other posts, Nintendo and MS are just fighting to stay
> alive right now.
Fighting to stay alive? I'm assuming you don't know just how big these companies are then? Think about it from another perspective, if the PS2 had failed, Sony would have been crippled, whereas if the XBOX fails, I doubt Billy boy Gates will give a flying fart about it.
> They cant take on Sony from where they are. They are
> just scratching around for the few users who didn't get a PS2 and
> don't wan't a PS2 (plus a handful that have more than one machine).
6 billion people on this planet, how many of them own PS2s? So how many people are there left to sell to? The market is nowhere near saturation, you have no idea what you're talking about.
> Both will shift more machines during Xmas 02, but so will Sony. So it
> wont make much difference anyway. Rather ironic MS is talking about
> future projects like XBox 2, 3, and 4.
Microsoft are playing a different game. They've ingeniously accelerated the shift from traditional consoles to PC oriented and online gaming by offering capabilities other consoles lacked. It's now only a matter of time before consoles literally resemble PCs, and that plays right into MicroSofts hands as lord and masters of the PC operating system. You just can't see the wood for the trees can you?
> This is just to persuade us
> that they are not concerned about the number of Xbox machines out
> there, which is rubbish. The are concerned, as will be Nintendo. MS
> might well speak up a long term game, but equally there is a chance
> that the Xbox or GC may ultimately get the axe - due to poor numbers.
No, GC is doing more than sufficiently to stay alive, and the XBOX is developing a strong following. In my opinion both will survive, Nintendo preserving the traditional style of console gaming with MicroSoft dragging Sony out of their depth into PC gaming.
Ask yourself this: What will Sony give you for the PS3? They have three choices. 1) Fight MS into the new console market, where PC components and mods are the instruments of play, an arena over which they have almost no power. 2) Drop back with Nintendo into more traditional entertainment, which basically admits defeat against MS, a massive blow for them. 3) Stick with an imbetween machine which is neither full blooded console or budget PC, falling behind the stakes of both markets, and ultimately dropping out of their own.
Sony have a lot of thinking to do. Their hands may well be deep in the console pie now, but their future is by no means certain.
> Like i said in other posts, Nintendo and MS are just fighting to stay
> alive right now.
Fighting to stay alive? I'm assuming you don't know just how big these companies are then? Think about it from another perspective, if the PS2 had failed, Sony would have been crippled, whereas if the XBOX fails, I doubt Billy boy Gates will give a flying fart about it.
> They cant take on Sony from where they are. They are
> just scratching around for the few users who didn't get a PS2 and
> don't wan't a PS2 (plus a handful that have more than one machine).
6 billion people on this planet, how many of them own PS2s? So how many people are there left to sell to? The market is nowhere near saturation, you have no idea what you're talking about.
> Both will shift more machines during Xmas 02, but so will Sony. So it
> wont make much difference anyway. Rather ironic MS is talking about
> future projects like XBox 2, 3, and 4.
Microsoft are playing a different game. They've ingeniously accelerated the shift from traditional consoles to PC oriented and online gaming by offering capabilities other consoles lacked. It's now only a matter of time before consoles literally resemble PCs, and that plays right into MicroSofts hands as lord and masters of the PC operating system. You just can't see the wood for the trees can you?
> This is just to persuade us
> that they are not concerned about the number of Xbox machines out
> there, which is rubbish. The are concerned, as will be Nintendo. MS
> might well speak up a long term game, but equally there is a chance
> that the Xbox or GC may ultimately get the axe - due to poor numbers.
No, GC is doing more than sufficiently to stay alive, and the XBOX is developing a strong following. In my opinion both will survive, Nintendo preserving the traditional style of console gaming with MicroSoft dragging Sony out of their depth into PC gaming.
Ask yourself this: What will Sony give you for the PS3? They have three choices. 1) Fight MS into the new console market, where PC components and mods are the instruments of play, an arena over which they have almost no power. 2) Drop back with Nintendo into more traditional entertainment, which basically admits defeat against MS, a massive blow for them. 3) Stick with an imbetween machine which is neither full blooded console or budget PC, falling behind the stakes of both markets, and ultimately dropping out of their own.
Sony have a lot of thinking to do. Their hands may well be deep in the console pie now, but their future is by no means certain.
WòókieeMøn§†€® wrote:
>
> In my vision of the future, the world is controlled by a single giant
> computer, which tries to wipe out humanity by sending an army of
> killer robots after us, thereby rendering games consoles obsolete.
> Maybe I should make a film about it.
*looks at wookie*
*realises he is being reaaaaaalllly serious*
'Yes, YOU GO FOR IT!'
*wipes brow*
>
> In my vision of the future, the world is controlled by a single giant
> computer, which tries to wipe out humanity by sending an army of
> killer robots after us, thereby rendering games consoles obsolete.
> Maybe I should make a film about it.
*looks at wookie*
*realises he is being reaaaaaalllly serious*
'Yes, YOU GO FOR IT!'
*wipes brow*
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