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"Why don't we care when dead British soldiers come home?"

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Sun 13/04/08 at 11:53
Regular
Posts: 19,415
Okay I have a link to the Daily Mail but I've been wanting to do this thread for awhile. Apparently in Canada and American especially, they really make an effort to welcome home the dead soldiers that went to fight for their country. However our boys don't seem to get the same treatment. There was also something in the news about requesting them not to wear uniforms in public or something along those lines.

According to the newspapers we should all be ashamed of ourselves and we should be showing more support and respect for the people who risked their lives for our country.

So what do you think of all this? Is it our fault? Should we be doing more to show our support for our troops? Why aren't you all going out to buy (made in China) mini flags and waving them in the streets?

And why isn't Hippyman even considering a job in the army despite all those "cool" adverts on TV like the guys on that really sunny tropical beach having a laugh. In Singapore (like Italy) every young man has to enlist in the army for several years. Maybe this is something we might have to do when we run out of soldiers?
Thu 17/04/08 at 16:51
Regular
Posts: 938
I joined the Army to be a Finance Specialist, so killing people isn't really on my daily agenda.
Thu 17/04/08 at 16:41
Regular
"Hellfire Stoker"
Posts: 10,534
Damarus wrote:
> harsh but true

Considering the two people I know in my hometown who are soldiers, I'd have to agree. They're both thicker than pig manure after said pig has been gorging on PVA, and one is a bit of a psycopath.

But on the other side of things, I also know someone considering going into officer training after university who has a bit of a sense of duty, and is pretty intelligent.

I've heard the point made that the qualification you get from being in the military is something with a civilian equivalent, but it's essentially one of those things that is barely worth the paper it's written on.

Me, I could never go into the military. Although the danger of death is lower than in past conflicts, I'm not up for that. Plus I'm practically blind in one eye.
Thu 17/04/08 at 16:13
Regular
Posts: 938
Grix Thraves wrote:
> Dragonlance wrote:
> NOTHING to do with...killing...that just comes as and when the
> government dictates.
>
> To be fair, isn't the whole point of going into the army about
> fighting for your country? I know you can have the subsections of
> medics and engineers etc, but you are surely trained as a killer.
> You are taught how to fire a gun.. but yes, perhaps the reason
> why there's so much PTSD is because you're not taught how to
> handle yourself by becoming a killer.
>

Before going into a war zone, the Army does brief you on certain things and having to kill is one of them. I had an officer friend who once told me that there are three types of people who join the Army.. 1) The type that are really killers. 2) The type that will do it because it's their job. They'll rationalise and cope. 3) They type that will break under the pressure to perform and go hide under a rock somewhere, rocking back and forth in the fetal position. (or something along those lines)

I like to think of myself in the well-balanced, happy-medium and able to cope because of my maturity and the fortitude that my life experiences have alloted me. I don't want to kill anyone and killing is certainly not the reason why I joined the Army, but dang.. if someone's shooting at me -just- because I'm wearing green, I'm sure as hell going to shoot back. Hey, I like Allah too, mmmkay?

> I'm not that far from the truth really. To be honest yes, of
> course you get trained in social and life skills, and if it was
> -just- that then I'd even be tempted to join the army myself. But
> it's not - you are joining the army, a legion of people who
> fight. That does not appeal to me, although the training itself
> kinda does, and if I did join I'd go in as a medic or something.
> But then I'm not quite likely to be doing so well what being a
> mental and all. I'd go into psychosis and blow my brains out
> probably.
>
> Ladybird, any comment on this? What reasons did you have for
> joining the army?


Shucks, class is about to start..gotta go ;)
Wed 16/04/08 at 22:50
Regular
Posts: 4,279
fff wrote:
> because they're dead?

aha, exactly!

that and probably only about 5% are there actually fighting for our country, the rest are just made up of morons who couldn't get a job, people who want a bit of excitement or the down right sick twisted b*stards who enjoy killing people and get away with it.

harsh but true
Wed 16/04/08 at 22:15
Regular
Posts: 23,216
Dragonlance wrote:
NOTHING to do with...killing...that just comes as and when the government dictates.

To be fair, isn't the whole point of going into the army about fighting for your country? I know you can have the subsections of medics and engineers etc, but you are surely trained as a killer. You are taught how to fire a gun.. but yes, perhaps the reason why there's so much PTSD is because you're not taught how to handle yourself by becoming a killer.

I'm not that far from the truth really. To be honest yes, of course you get trained in social and life skills, and if it was -just- that then I'd even be tempted to join the army myself. But it's not - you are joining the army, a legion of people who fight. That does not appeal to me, although the training itself kinda does, and if I did join I'd go in as a medic or something. But then I'm not quite likely to be doing so well what being a mental and all. I'd go into psychosis and blow my brains out probably.

Ladybird, any comment on this? What reasons did you have for joining the army?
Wed 16/04/08 at 22:02
"period drama"
Posts: 19,792
because they're dead?
Mon 14/04/08 at 11:27
Moderator
"possibly impossible"
Posts: 24,985
Everpain wrote:
> As for putting on a song and dance for the returning dead, for
> whose benefit is this anyway? The dead soldiers are dead, and
> completely incapable of appreciating the sentiment. It is
> therefore little more than a PR exercise, a spin opportunity to
> whip up zeal and fervour for the ongoing campaign.
>
> A morbid and solemn event such as the returning of the dead is
> no time for fanfare and celebration, but instead one of quiet
> contemplation. The bottom line is someone got sent out there and
> died. Where they died, how they died and even why they died are
> all secondary concerns.

Completely agree with what you say, nice way of putting it too.
Mon 14/04/08 at 11:02
Regular
"Author of Pain"
Posts: 395
As for putting on a song and dance for the returning dead, for whose benefit is this anyway? The dead soldiers are dead, and completely incapable of appreciating the sentiment. It is therefore little more than a PR exercise, a spin opportunity to whip up zeal and fervour for the ongoing campaign.

A morbid and solemn event such as the returning of the dead is no time for fanfare and celebration, but instead one of quiet contemplation. The bottom line is someone got sent out there and died. Where they died, how they died and even why they died are all secondary concerns.
Mon 14/04/08 at 10:58
Regular
"Author of Pain"
Posts: 395
Conscription is a pointless exercise in paranoia, and a massive waste of public funds.

If you're a little slow and need the additional learning on offer (despite having utterly failed to pick anything up during 11 years of compulsory education), or are otherwise curious about a career in the military but are unwilling to commit without tasting it first hand, I can see the point.

If, however, having taken full advantage of your free education you decide upon a career as an accountant, taking two years out of your life learning to change oily cogs on an APC and disarming fake landmines is nothing but a distraction, and a big waste of a couple of years of your life.

Not that I'm tryint to demean the armed forces; I'm an army brat myself, and see them as an essential public service. But they are increasingly a highly specialised service, and unless one wishes to pursue that particular specialism on a long-term basis, it is best left for those who would choose it willingly.
Mon 14/04/08 at 09:56
Moderator
"possibly impossible"
Posts: 24,985
You don't exactly look at the DETAIL of conscription in other countries. Most of Europe now has a good system where you can choose to do community service instead of National Service in the armed forces.

There are many in Europe (particularly Germany) that are either against the armed forces or have no interest in joining, so there is little point in enforcing conscription upon them. A fair system is to ensure that they learn about their community through other means should they wish to, but still involving the basic skills that could be learnt in the army.

I do agree that the skills learnt through having to be presentable and working in a group are very good for any teenager to have, but the armed forces aren't the only way this can be achieved.

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