The "Freeola Customer Forum" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
This is just my opinion on some stuff. Which side do you favor - scientific or religious route? Foreword: This, which I am about to type isn’t science-fiction nonsense. Much of what is written is based on scientifically proven fact, and the rest is my opinion. Using a combination of the two, a reasonably non-contradictory explanation can hopefully be created. Right.
In the beginning there was the big bang, the creation of OUR universe. There, at the same time, were also an infinite number of other big bangs elsewhere in the multiverse. The multiverse is a fluid medium in which our, and many other universes float. Our universe is likely to be donut-shaped, but as we have no scientific proof, and never will have, this can never be proved. The multiverse cannot be defined; it is a place where “god” exists. Here he/she/it created all the universes, possibly simultaneously. He DID create everything we know, but in a random manner. Each universe is similar to at least one other universe, but with one single tiny difference in the laws of physics. For every possible outcome that could arise, there is a universe for each possibility (hence parallel universe. But this is actually lies because if it was a parallel universe then everything would be the same and it’s not, there is one difference in each one). Our universe is almost infinitely large, and is expanding, at an almost infinite rate. (Again not 100% scientific fact but this is what is generally believed to be happening)
The universe is several billion years old, this IS scientific fact and flatly contradicts the Bible, which claims the earth is a mere 5000 years old, but the earth is also several billion years old. It could be ¼ the age of the universe or perhaps even less. But still, that is substantially more than 5000 years. If the bible is wrong on such a scale, such a massive fact then surely other, more minor facts must also be incorrect. The bible clearly has a lot of truth. And it also has many valid points, and thus should be followed. But, in my opinion, whether you follow it or not, has no effect on the “afterlife”, more on this later.
The earth was formed in space over millions or billions of years, due to the accumulation of dust and particles in space, formed by a destroyed star or the creation of the universe itself. The gravity of all the little bits pulled together to form a large planet. There was extreme heat here because of all the forces acting upon the planet, during its creation. Here it sat and boiled for a while, until it got smacked by a super-massive asteroid, and this caused bits of it to fly off. These bits went into orbit around the earth and formed the moon. Earth now is kind of cooling down, and sort of becoming habitable. Life will soon form, but there are two possible ways in which this could happen.
1. Bits of stuff, proteins etc congealed in a pool, by chance formed an organism and this organism then decided it was a plant. And thus life on earth arose due to its own volition.
2. There was already life elsewhere in the universe, which is highly likely due to the place’s age, 5 billion years+ is likely to form life (as stated in 1.), and a meteor or whatever struck this planet. Some bacteria or plant material was transported through space in/on the asteroid. It landed on our humble planet, escaped and started up here.
If either of these are true, which they could well be, does it not occur to you that life is just a big bunch of random proteins and stuff congealed together, by luck/chance, and evolution have culminated, on this planet at any rate, in humans. Look at really basic life: an amoeba. It clearly has no intelligence; it simply isn’t capable of it. Don’t say it does, because it simply cant think, it lives, breeds etc on genetic instinct built into it. It has no choice, it has no ethics, and it has no ‘spirit’. Eat or not eat. Divide or not divide. That’s about the limit of its choices. Then look at us: are we any different? NO. Our brains are just 2 lbs of gray mush that has been formed over millions of years of natural selection. The brain is really great. It’s quite smashing. It can do millions of things per second; it’s faster than ANY computer. It controls electrical signals generated in our brain, generally by external stimuli. Sight, smell etc. these electrical signals go to glands or whatever, send out hormones, and stuff.
Personality is just a bonus, a side effect of the brain. Look at dolphins, or sharks, or snakes, or mice. Not stupid animals, they have personalities, just like any one of us. But would you say they have a “spirit”? Do they have a god? In the literal sense, yes they do as god is (potentially) an omnipotent being who created the universes. But do they go to heaven when they die? Do the dolphins go to a massive sea in the sky with as many hoops, balls and fish as they want? To the mice go to cheese-land? No. How? Because there is no such place, there is no such thing as “spirits,” or “your soul”. There is the person inside oneself, but that is primarily defined at conception, then later, after birth, formed through external influences. It may sound heartless but it is, in my opinion, the truth.
So, what happens when we die? Where do we go, what happens to our consciousness? It simply stops. There is nothing there; you simply don’t exist (other then your dead body). Whatever thoughts, feelings or whatever you had on your dying day will be stored there still, in your deceased brain, until it degrades, the memory cells die and THEN, you are gone. So in a way you do exist after death, if only briefly. But of course you are dead, there is no heart action, thus no brain function, therefore it is the end.
If you disagree with any of my points, feel free to criticize.
Thanks for reading,
LF
In the beginning there was the big bang, the creation of OUR universe. There, at the same time, were also an infinite number of other big bangs elsewhere in the multiverse. The multiverse is a fluid medium in which our, and many other universes float. Our universe is likely to be donut-shaped, but as we have no scientific proof, and never will have, this can never be proved. The multiverse cannot be defined; it is a place where “god” exists. Here he/she/it created all the universes, possibly simultaneously. He DID create everything we know, but in a random manner. Each universe is similar to at least one other universe, but with one single tiny difference in the laws of physics. For every possible outcome that could arise, there is a universe for each possibility (hence parallel universe. But this is actually lies because if it was a parallel universe then everything would be the same and it’s not, there is one difference in each one). Our universe is almost infinitely large, and is expanding, at an almost infinite rate. (Again not 100% scientific fact but this is what is generally believed to be happening)
The universe is several billion years old, this IS scientific fact and flatly contradicts the Bible, which claims the earth is a mere 5000 years old, but the earth is also several billion years old. It could be ¼ the age of the universe or perhaps even less. But still, that is substantially more than 5000 years. If the bible is wrong on such a scale, such a massive fact then surely other, more minor facts must also be incorrect. The bible clearly has a lot of truth. And it also has many valid points, and thus should be followed. But, in my opinion, whether you follow it or not, has no effect on the “afterlife”, more on this later.
The earth was formed in space over millions or billions of years, due to the accumulation of dust and particles in space, formed by a destroyed star or the creation of the universe itself. The gravity of all the little bits pulled together to form a large planet. There was extreme heat here because of all the forces acting upon the planet, during its creation. Here it sat and boiled for a while, until it got smacked by a super-massive asteroid, and this caused bits of it to fly off. These bits went into orbit around the earth and formed the moon. Earth now is kind of cooling down, and sort of becoming habitable. Life will soon form, but there are two possible ways in which this could happen.
1. Bits of stuff, proteins etc congealed in a pool, by chance formed an organism and this organism then decided it was a plant. And thus life on earth arose due to its own volition.
2. There was already life elsewhere in the universe, which is highly likely due to the place’s age, 5 billion years+ is likely to form life (as stated in 1.), and a meteor or whatever struck this planet. Some bacteria or plant material was transported through space in/on the asteroid. It landed on our humble planet, escaped and started up here.
If either of these are true, which they could well be, does it not occur to you that life is just a big bunch of random proteins and stuff congealed together, by luck/chance, and evolution have culminated, on this planet at any rate, in humans. Look at really basic life: an amoeba. It clearly has no intelligence; it simply isn’t capable of it. Don’t say it does, because it simply cant think, it lives, breeds etc on genetic instinct built into it. It has no choice, it has no ethics, and it has no ‘spirit’. Eat or not eat. Divide or not divide. That’s about the limit of its choices. Then look at us: are we any different? NO. Our brains are just 2 lbs of gray mush that has been formed over millions of years of natural selection. The brain is really great. It’s quite smashing. It can do millions of things per second; it’s faster than ANY computer. It controls electrical signals generated in our brain, generally by external stimuli. Sight, smell etc. these electrical signals go to glands or whatever, send out hormones, and stuff.
Personality is just a bonus, a side effect of the brain. Look at dolphins, or sharks, or snakes, or mice. Not stupid animals, they have personalities, just like any one of us. But would you say they have a “spirit”? Do they have a god? In the literal sense, yes they do as god is (potentially) an omnipotent being who created the universes. But do they go to heaven when they die? Do the dolphins go to a massive sea in the sky with as many hoops, balls and fish as they want? To the mice go to cheese-land? No. How? Because there is no such place, there is no such thing as “spirits,” or “your soul”. There is the person inside oneself, but that is primarily defined at conception, then later, after birth, formed through external influences. It may sound heartless but it is, in my opinion, the truth.
So, what happens when we die? Where do we go, what happens to our consciousness? It simply stops. There is nothing there; you simply don’t exist (other then your dead body). Whatever thoughts, feelings or whatever you had on your dying day will be stored there still, in your deceased brain, until it degrades, the memory cells die and THEN, you are gone. So in a way you do exist after death, if only briefly. But of course you are dead, there is no heart action, thus no brain function, therefore it is the end.
If you disagree with any of my points, feel free to criticize.
Thanks for reading,
LF
Page:
MoJoJoJo wrote:
> "Not one single event mentioned in them has yet found to be
> inaccurate"
>
> So, one man managed to gather two of EVERY kind of animal in the etc .....
>
> It's rediculous
Maybe before you start to post in this subject you should do a bit of research first.
The historical evidence that there was a massive flood at some time is irrefutable. Historical writings from around europe, russia,china and the med all indicate that a massive event did in fact occurr.
One of the most plausible explanations surrounds the area which now contains the Black Sea. The belief is that the Black sea used to actually be a very large lake and there is evidence that it used to be much larger. At some stage there was a collapse in the Bosporous mountains which caused millions of gallons of water to flood through into the Meditteranean, which in turn rose and flooded the surrounding biblical lands.
As to the accuracy of the actual story regarding Noah taking animals 2 x 2 etc this is likely to be the story tellers expanding on the original story.
No doubt Noah existed and he built a boat - maybe he received word from God, maybe he lived near the lake and knew something was up. We will not know, but we do know that the flood happened.
> "Not one single event mentioned in them has yet found to be
> inaccurate"
>
> So, one man managed to gather two of EVERY kind of animal in the etc .....
>
> It's rediculous
Maybe before you start to post in this subject you should do a bit of research first.
The historical evidence that there was a massive flood at some time is irrefutable. Historical writings from around europe, russia,china and the med all indicate that a massive event did in fact occurr.
One of the most plausible explanations surrounds the area which now contains the Black Sea. The belief is that the Black sea used to actually be a very large lake and there is evidence that it used to be much larger. At some stage there was a collapse in the Bosporous mountains which caused millions of gallons of water to flood through into the Meditteranean, which in turn rose and flooded the surrounding biblical lands.
As to the accuracy of the actual story regarding Noah taking animals 2 x 2 etc this is likely to be the story tellers expanding on the original story.
No doubt Noah existed and he built a boat - maybe he received word from God, maybe he lived near the lake and knew something was up. We will not know, but we do know that the flood happened.
More than likely that was done by people actually eating and passing on food of their own which they had brought. It's not a miracle... just an excellent example of the way people react if you have faith in them.
What is more unlikely- Jesus feeding five thousand people, or five thousand people not bringing anything to eat between them?
Not sure about the water into wine. We'll have to ask David Blaine about that one...
What is more unlikely- Jesus feeding five thousand people, or five thousand people not bringing anything to eat between them?
Not sure about the water into wine. We'll have to ask David Blaine about that one...
So, wait... Let's say I was walking along one day, and found a pound coin. If someone wrote a book on it, and instead of a pound coin, they said I found a treasure chest full of gold, by your reckoning, what they wrote would be true. Hmm, yes, that's a flawless theory
OK, another example from the bible, Jesus feeding 5,000 people. Now even you have to admit that that must be an exageration
OK, another example from the bible, Jesus feeding 5,000 people. Now even you have to admit that that must be an exageration
Mojo, I'm afraid you've picked the most historically true piece of the bible! The fact is that there was a great flood- when the rising Mediteranean sea (due to rising world sea levels) overflowed into the, then isolated, black "lake". This caused the lake and mediteranean to join in a catastrophic flood, and a channel was formed between the 2...
This is the tale told in Noah's arc- Noah lived in the previously above-water area that is now under the black lake.
Now, I don't think it's possible to say whether Noah got a message from God or not that the land was about to flood, as that depends on whether God exists (and it's pointless arguing!).
But most stories, like Noah's arc, are based on fact. Firstly, there was a great flood. Secondly there was probably a chap, called Noah who, either by word of God or seeing the rising level of the mediteranean or by luck, had a boat (perhaps just a fishing boat for the black lake?). He escaped, and that's what the story is telling.
As for the stuff about 1 of each animal, this is each an exageration of his saving some of his livestock before the flood, or something added by the church later.
But the fact remains that the basis of the story is 100% true and proven by Western Science (Russians seem to think that, for some reason they don't want to explain, the Black lake and Mediteranean water levels rose at the same rate, and they just "merged". Obvious nonsense.
So, next historic point in the bible to debate please!
Oh, and before you say it, I don't believ in Christianity, or any other religion. But the fact is that it's not just a load of rubbish put together by someone.
Sonic
This is the tale told in Noah's arc- Noah lived in the previously above-water area that is now under the black lake.
Now, I don't think it's possible to say whether Noah got a message from God or not that the land was about to flood, as that depends on whether God exists (and it's pointless arguing!).
But most stories, like Noah's arc, are based on fact. Firstly, there was a great flood. Secondly there was probably a chap, called Noah who, either by word of God or seeing the rising level of the mediteranean or by luck, had a boat (perhaps just a fishing boat for the black lake?). He escaped, and that's what the story is telling.
As for the stuff about 1 of each animal, this is each an exageration of his saving some of his livestock before the flood, or something added by the church later.
But the fact remains that the basis of the story is 100% true and proven by Western Science (Russians seem to think that, for some reason they don't want to explain, the Black lake and Mediteranean water levels rose at the same rate, and they just "merged". Obvious nonsense.
So, next historic point in the bible to debate please!
Oh, and before you say it, I don't believ in Christianity, or any other religion. But the fact is that it's not just a load of rubbish put together by someone.
Sonic
VenomByte wrote:
> What did Noah do about the fish then?
>
> I doubt they drowned.... so were they taken on the Ark?
They were in no immediate danger so there was no need to take them on board. I don't think that he had time to build lots of mini aquariums as well as building an Arc.
What did they do for food anyway? Surely there can't have been enough on board for the 40 days the flood lasted and some of the animals like Elephants would have required a lot.
> What did Noah do about the fish then?
>
> I doubt they drowned.... so were they taken on the Ark?
They were in no immediate danger so there was no need to take them on board. I don't think that he had time to build lots of mini aquariums as well as building an Arc.
What did they do for food anyway? Surely there can't have been enough on board for the 40 days the flood lasted and some of the animals like Elephants would have required a lot.
What did Noah do about the fish then?
I doubt they drowned.... so were they taken on the Ark?
Mayeb they took all except two of every fish. After all, they'd need something to eat while they were afloat. Speaking of food, two of every animal really isn't going to work when you look at the predator/prey ratios...
I doubt they drowned.... so were they taken on the Ark?
Mayeb they took all except two of every fish. After all, they'd need something to eat while they were afloat. Speaking of food, two of every animal really isn't going to work when you look at the predator/prey ratios...
"Not one single event mentioned in them has yet found to be inaccurate"
So, one man managed to gather two of EVERY kind of animal in the world? He then managed to fit them ALL onto one boat. Then EVERYONE in the entire world died by drowning, then the entire world was re-populated by just Noah and his family? Suuuuuuuuure
Yes, it hasn't been proved wrong, but common sense tells you it's a load of bull plop. People say they may have found parts of his ark, well how do they KNOW it was Noah's boat, eh? I could say "I've found some ancient wood, it looks like it could've been a huge boat... I know, it must be Noah's ark!"
It's rediculous
So, one man managed to gather two of EVERY kind of animal in the world? He then managed to fit them ALL onto one boat. Then EVERYONE in the entire world died by drowning, then the entire world was re-populated by just Noah and his family? Suuuuuuuuure
Yes, it hasn't been proved wrong, but common sense tells you it's a load of bull plop. People say they may have found parts of his ark, well how do they KNOW it was Noah's boat, eh? I could say "I've found some ancient wood, it looks like it could've been a huge boat... I know, it must be Noah's ark!"
It's rediculous
In response to Belldandy...
Soe of the points you raise are very good. The point of religion should be to teach people a moral way to live life. However, extremists abuse this by using religion as a way to justify wars, kill and segregate themselves from others (Bin Laden etc).
The actual teachings of religion are what our law is founded on anyway, and personally, even as a non-christian, I still believe in many of the morals the church teaches (be nice to one another etc).
However, there are some areas where I, and some christians, do not agree with the church. For example, I don't have a problem with gay relationships, and don't see why, if heaven existed, people who aren't Christian don't go there.
But you make one huge mistake- the "rules" of the church DO change! Every few years a Pope may review old doctrines. For example, after STDs came about, the church has allowed there use in the case where one partner has an STD. Abortion IS allowed if birth would jeopardise the life of the mother.
That said, I do believe that religion is a mechanism to "shield" people from the bad of the world. BUT it does offer good teachings, and our law is based upon it. There has to be more to life than science. Science can give us answers like "how was the Universe made", but it will never answer questions of philosophy like "why are we here". (My answer: to better the human race. Sciences answer: to reproduce. Religion's answer: to do good). Religion is one way people try to answer those questions.
Like religions, science can be used for bad- the atom bomb, chemical weapons etc. So both religion and science must be used wisely.
Oh, and to whoever said it, Science is, in many ways, a religion of sort.
Sonic
Soe of the points you raise are very good. The point of religion should be to teach people a moral way to live life. However, extremists abuse this by using religion as a way to justify wars, kill and segregate themselves from others (Bin Laden etc).
The actual teachings of religion are what our law is founded on anyway, and personally, even as a non-christian, I still believe in many of the morals the church teaches (be nice to one another etc).
However, there are some areas where I, and some christians, do not agree with the church. For example, I don't have a problem with gay relationships, and don't see why, if heaven existed, people who aren't Christian don't go there.
But you make one huge mistake- the "rules" of the church DO change! Every few years a Pope may review old doctrines. For example, after STDs came about, the church has allowed there use in the case where one partner has an STD. Abortion IS allowed if birth would jeopardise the life of the mother.
That said, I do believe that religion is a mechanism to "shield" people from the bad of the world. BUT it does offer good teachings, and our law is based upon it. There has to be more to life than science. Science can give us answers like "how was the Universe made", but it will never answer questions of philosophy like "why are we here". (My answer: to better the human race. Sciences answer: to reproduce. Religion's answer: to do good). Religion is one way people try to answer those questions.
Like religions, science can be used for bad- the atom bomb, chemical weapons etc. So both religion and science must be used wisely.
Oh, and to whoever said it, Science is, in many ways, a religion of sort.
Sonic
Ant wrote:
I reckon that he made the Universe in 6 'stages'
Ant, this is exactly what I said a few posts back! (Although I used the word "ages" rather than "stages").
The point was the the bible, like you said, is not literal. The 6 days of creation are either representing 6 stages or a way that people who could not comprehend the scale of the Universe thought about such things... or a combination.
I was trying to point out to Smooth Criminal that his idea that Christians actually believe the Universe took 6 days to make really is nonsense! The belief that it was actually made in 6 ages has no contradictory effects on the Big Bang or any other kind of Universe Creation Theorem.
Sonic
I reckon that he made the Universe in 6 'stages'
Ant, this is exactly what I said a few posts back! (Although I used the word "ages" rather than "stages").
The point was the the bible, like you said, is not literal. The 6 days of creation are either representing 6 stages or a way that people who could not comprehend the scale of the Universe thought about such things... or a combination.
I was trying to point out to Smooth Criminal that his idea that Christians actually believe the Universe took 6 days to make really is nonsense! The belief that it was actually made in 6 ages has no contradictory effects on the Big Bang or any other kind of Universe Creation Theorem.
Sonic
Belldandy wrote:
> Maybe no one has proved that any historical events didn't happen but
> most of the Bible isn't about history, and the Bible itself has been
> changed by many many groups and people into what it is today. It still
> is what Mojojojo says, a book telling people how to live their life.
The Bible is in fact a collection of many different books, written over a period of 4000+ years. The majority of the old testament is historical and prophetic with some teaching thrown in, It includes things like telling you to wash your hands before handling raw meat, burying sewage to prevent disease, which animals and insects are safe to eat, including only eating animals that have been slaughtered to eat, not eating animals that have died of natural deaths, quaranteening people with illnesses. Yes it does tell people to be friends and to be good to one another - anything wrong with that ?
>Many Christian groups oppose single parent families, gay relationships, >anyone who goes against their beloved teachings. Go past churches in many >towns and you see stupid posters like "Jesus will repent your sins".
> And this is the core of why I don't believe in this kind of religion.
It's not a matter of opposing single parent families but trying to get through to people what is the ideal and what is the best for children, it's about having a balanced life. Can you tell me that a child who has been adopted by 2 gay men will grow up with a balanced view on life ?
You obviously do not understand what being a Christian is all about. It is not about judging people for what they are and what they do - yes there are extremists, like in all walks of life - It is about living your life in a loving and respectful way, respecting others, not judging them.
Yes there are people who will try and force it on people but this is the wrong way - we can all make choices in this life and if you choose to be a Christian then that is up to you, if you choose not to be, then that is also up to you. I for one will not criticise you for the choices you make in your life.
> Religions other major crime, is that, unlike science, it's killed
> people by the millions, if not billions. The Crusades, The Witchhunts,
> Missionaries in the Congo in 18th-19th c, America 15-18th c.....and
> thats just Christianity.
This topic has been covered here before - religion is not responsible for wars, people are - people use religion as an excuse for their actions. This is exactly what happened with Bin Laden. He and his cronies have manipulated the religious institutions into brainwashing people into believing what is clearly untrue. Any words that have been written can be twisted and used to portray your particular point and this is a constant criticism people use about the bible - the fact that the words can be twisted and used selectively to force the point you are making.
> Maybe no one has proved that any historical events didn't happen but
> most of the Bible isn't about history, and the Bible itself has been
> changed by many many groups and people into what it is today. It still
> is what Mojojojo says, a book telling people how to live their life.
The Bible is in fact a collection of many different books, written over a period of 4000+ years. The majority of the old testament is historical and prophetic with some teaching thrown in, It includes things like telling you to wash your hands before handling raw meat, burying sewage to prevent disease, which animals and insects are safe to eat, including only eating animals that have been slaughtered to eat, not eating animals that have died of natural deaths, quaranteening people with illnesses. Yes it does tell people to be friends and to be good to one another - anything wrong with that ?
>Many Christian groups oppose single parent families, gay relationships, >anyone who goes against their beloved teachings. Go past churches in many >towns and you see stupid posters like "Jesus will repent your sins".
> And this is the core of why I don't believe in this kind of religion.
It's not a matter of opposing single parent families but trying to get through to people what is the ideal and what is the best for children, it's about having a balanced life. Can you tell me that a child who has been adopted by 2 gay men will grow up with a balanced view on life ?
You obviously do not understand what being a Christian is all about. It is not about judging people for what they are and what they do - yes there are extremists, like in all walks of life - It is about living your life in a loving and respectful way, respecting others, not judging them.
Yes there are people who will try and force it on people but this is the wrong way - we can all make choices in this life and if you choose to be a Christian then that is up to you, if you choose not to be, then that is also up to you. I for one will not criticise you for the choices you make in your life.
> Religions other major crime, is that, unlike science, it's killed
> people by the millions, if not billions. The Crusades, The Witchhunts,
> Missionaries in the Congo in 18th-19th c, America 15-18th c.....and
> thats just Christianity.
This topic has been covered here before - religion is not responsible for wars, people are - people use religion as an excuse for their actions. This is exactly what happened with Bin Laden. He and his cronies have manipulated the religious institutions into brainwashing people into believing what is clearly untrue. Any words that have been written can be twisted and used to portray your particular point and this is a constant criticism people use about the bible - the fact that the words can be twisted and used selectively to force the point you are making.
Page: