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This thread has been linked to the game 'Football Manager 2011'.
You could consider the average modern day football fan as a manager. Everyone who follows the game has their own views on how the game should be played and how their team should perform. Football manager games give fans an opportunity to do this, or the games at least try to.
The problem with Football Manager 2011, and it's predecessors, is that the game solely relies on the computer to process how the game pans out. What I mean by this is that the you can't directly decide what's going to happen during a game, you can affect events, but when it comes down to it, you're not fully in control. Some many say this 'random' factor adds to the game. For me, it doesn't work. There have been numerous times where I've chosen fantastic tactics, bought fantastic players and set everything up for a victory, only for the computer to decide I lose 5-0 for no reason at all. Now of course in real life, underdogs sometimes manage to pull off miracles, but this is a game. There doesn't seem to be a point in playing if the computer decides what will happen anyway.
The game is also not advanced enough for me. This is the year 2011, great things can be achieved with technology. Football Manager obviously doesn't pride itself on graphics, and you'd assume the game would be indepth to make up for this. It's really doesn't though. At first, the press and interactions between players and managers are really impressive, but the repetetive nature of the interactions kills this feature off.
The worst section of the game for me is the training of players. Player development in general seems very weak, with players skills being rated out of 20. You're never aware of any player growth though, you just get updated every so often with a coach telling you some players have trained well.
I just feel Football Manager should offer more than it currently does. I feel it's a genre that's going to be difficult to develop, and really, it doesn't work as a genre. Managing a football team requires skill, but it's a different kind of skill. As I said before, the computer probably has more input into the results of the game than the actual player, and games like that really aren't fun to play. Of course you occassionally get some success, but is that due to the player? Partially, it also requires a bit of luck. I prefer not to depend on luck though. I prefer a more direct, hands-on game.
The problem with Football Manager 2011, and it's predecessors, is that the game solely relies on the computer to process how the game pans out. What I mean by this is that the you can't directly decide what's going to happen during a game, you can affect events, but when it comes down to it, you're not fully in control. Some many say this 'random' factor adds to the game. For me, it doesn't work. There have been numerous times where I've chosen fantastic tactics, bought fantastic players and set everything up for a victory, only for the computer to decide I lose 5-0 for no reason at all. Now of course in real life, underdogs sometimes manage to pull off miracles, but this is a game. There doesn't seem to be a point in playing if the computer decides what will happen anyway.
The game is also not advanced enough for me. This is the year 2011, great things can be achieved with technology. Football Manager obviously doesn't pride itself on graphics, and you'd assume the game would be indepth to make up for this. It's really doesn't though. At first, the press and interactions between players and managers are really impressive, but the repetetive nature of the interactions kills this feature off.
The worst section of the game for me is the training of players. Player development in general seems very weak, with players skills being rated out of 20. You're never aware of any player growth though, you just get updated every so often with a coach telling you some players have trained well.
I just feel Football Manager should offer more than it currently does. I feel it's a genre that's going to be difficult to develop, and really, it doesn't work as a genre. Managing a football team requires skill, but it's a different kind of skill. As I said before, the computer probably has more input into the results of the game than the actual player, and games like that really aren't fun to play. Of course you occassionally get some success, but is that due to the player? Partially, it also requires a bit of luck. I prefer not to depend on luck though. I prefer a more direct, hands-on game.
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And therein lies the real issue with this opinion tbh.
I would never moan about FM or say it is not a good game, it's just it's one of thoes things where the more time invested, the more enjoyment reaped.
The feeling of achieving something is what makes the game good (as achievements and accomplishments do in others games). This only becomes really possible when understanding the game fully and spending time to tweak the smallest details.
Moto and Butch are proper number crunchers and win more or less everything on there.
In terms of player development, they showed me the exact same player on their databases the other day.
One was fantactic and a world star (I believe) because he had gone to a club with brilliant training grounds and youth policies, whereas the other had gone to Arsenal and been ruined.
I would never moan about FM or say it is not a good game, it's just it's one of thoes things where the more time invested, the more enjoyment reaped.
The feeling of achieving something is what makes the game good (as achievements and accomplishments do in others games). This only becomes really possible when understanding the game fully and spending time to tweak the smallest details.
Moto and Butch are proper number crunchers and win more or less everything on there.
In terms of player development, they showed me the exact same player on their databases the other day.
One was fantactic and a world star (I believe) because he had gone to a club with brilliant training grounds and youth policies, whereas the other had gone to Arsenal and been ruined.
Yeh I don't get much out of the game seeing as the 'boring' stuff is sometimes avoided (press conferences etc.) I play as Liverpool and always try to sell the likes of Jovanovic, Kyriagkos (sp.?), Poulsen and Cole, then they have a massive fit and destroy my squad morale. And Barca always try to buy Agger...
I understand what you're saying SC, it's one of the most frustrating games I've ever played. But I can't disagree much with Butch, especially since he's just won the Super Taco trophy.
I do fully understand that my frustration comes from being impatient when it comes to statistics and tweaking options in a game where the minimum I expect is fun at all times.
I should be spending much more time with the training, press conferences, staff meetings, boosting morale etc which Butch points out, but truth be told, I can't get to the 'Match Screen' quick enough each time, and that's not really the way to play FM.
Saying that, there are definitely aspects of the game which happen regardless of whether I've invested the majority of my time setting things up right. The amount of games (in a row) where I've lost the match because of a solitary last-minute goal is incredible. I always seem to be leading 3-0 or 4-0 and they come back to nick it by 1 goal.
I still enjoy it though, having opted to be a lazy yet utterly ruthless manager. I make my assistant do everything in regards to press conferences, friendlies, training etc and leave all the fun bits to me (team selection, formation, actually playing matches etc). A few of my players get unhappy about this but if they have the audacity to even frown at me, they get shown the door. Enjoy your transfer to Burnley.
I do fully understand that my frustration comes from being impatient when it comes to statistics and tweaking options in a game where the minimum I expect is fun at all times.
I should be spending much more time with the training, press conferences, staff meetings, boosting morale etc which Butch points out, but truth be told, I can't get to the 'Match Screen' quick enough each time, and that's not really the way to play FM.
Saying that, there are definitely aspects of the game which happen regardless of whether I've invested the majority of my time setting things up right. The amount of games (in a row) where I've lost the match because of a solitary last-minute goal is incredible. I always seem to be leading 3-0 or 4-0 and they come back to nick it by 1 goal.
I still enjoy it though, having opted to be a lazy yet utterly ruthless manager. I make my assistant do everything in regards to press conferences, friendlies, training etc and leave all the fun bits to me (team selection, formation, actually playing matches etc). A few of my players get unhappy about this but if they have the audacity to even frown at me, they get shown the door. Enjoy your transfer to Burnley.
No overly defensive really, just trying to clear up some misconceptions you seem to have with certain aspects of the game.
As I said, the transfer system isn't perfect, but it does come close to the way the market works in the real world. Expecting to sell players you don't want, for their market value, who are on the transfer list, to teams with transfer budgets to adhere to, is unrealistic. If I was at home I could show you examples of me selling my players for above and beyond what the game thinks they are worth and negotiating deals for players from other teams that I want for no more than I would expect to play (e.g. I just picked up a centre mid for £8.5m who was worth £6, the club wanted double that to start off with).
I will agree with you that the media interaction (I assume you are only referring to press conferences) is repetitive, but it is not without it's virtues. For example, I use my press conferences to praise my players who have lower morale or may be looking for a move. Besides you can quite easily set your assistant to do all press conferences so you never have to see another.
The 'Training' tab on the player screen will quickly show you any notes your coaches have on the player. Also ticking the 'show recent changes' box on the profile page will show you (with pretty little red and green arrows) recent changes to stats, obviously these are also affected by age and games etc. Having an e-mail from my coaches every week/month which includes detailed reports on every single player in my squad (pushing 60 at Benfica right now, not including those out on loan) would be pointless and is something that most players will pay no notice to.
As I said, the transfer system isn't perfect, but it does come close to the way the market works in the real world. Expecting to sell players you don't want, for their market value, who are on the transfer list, to teams with transfer budgets to adhere to, is unrealistic. If I was at home I could show you examples of me selling my players for above and beyond what the game thinks they are worth and negotiating deals for players from other teams that I want for no more than I would expect to play (e.g. I just picked up a centre mid for £8.5m who was worth £6, the club wanted double that to start off with).
I will agree with you that the media interaction (I assume you are only referring to press conferences) is repetitive, but it is not without it's virtues. For example, I use my press conferences to praise my players who have lower morale or may be looking for a move. Besides you can quite easily set your assistant to do all press conferences so you never have to see another.
The 'Training' tab on the player screen will quickly show you any notes your coaches have on the player. Also ticking the 'show recent changes' box on the profile page will show you (with pretty little red and green arrows) recent changes to stats, obviously these are also affected by age and games etc. Having an e-mail from my coaches every week/month which includes detailed reports on every single player in my squad (pushing 60 at Benfica right now, not including those out on loan) would be pointless and is something that most players will pay no notice to.
I don't care for FIFA much, it's usually a rebosh of the previous version (hence I sold FIFA 11 recently).
Very defensive argument Butch. I realise you're an avid fan of FM, and whilst most fans would disagree with what I'm saying, as only natural, I think most would agree that the Transfer Market in game is ludicrous. It is very difficult to sell your own players for value, whilst computer teams seem to demand more money for their players.
The Media system, whilst improved and being a very nice touch to the game that could have easily been left out, is far too monotonous. You seem to face the same questions before and after every game, or on that rare occason when you finally sign a player within your transfer budget.
I have delved into the training system. It seems to be made up of option for very heavy, heavy, medium and light training, with the option of targeting specific areas to train. Whilst the idea is all nice and dandy, the point I was making was that you're seldom told of specific improvements or see the effects on pitch (ie. "Raul Meireles has trained well this month"). Whilst you can track individual players progress, I feel it is up to the coaches to inform the manager of specfic training progress.
Very defensive argument Butch. I realise you're an avid fan of FM, and whilst most fans would disagree with what I'm saying, as only natural, I think most would agree that the Transfer Market in game is ludicrous. It is very difficult to sell your own players for value, whilst computer teams seem to demand more money for their players.
The Media system, whilst improved and being a very nice touch to the game that could have easily been left out, is far too monotonous. You seem to face the same questions before and after every game, or on that rare occason when you finally sign a player within your transfer budget.
I have delved into the training system. It seems to be made up of option for very heavy, heavy, medium and light training, with the option of targeting specific areas to train. Whilst the idea is all nice and dandy, the point I was making was that you're seldom told of specific improvements or see the effects on pitch (ie. "Raul Meireles has trained well this month"). Whilst you can track individual players progress, I feel it is up to the coaches to inform the manager of specfic training progress.
Sounds to me like you are not playing the game properly.
Just because you believe you are playing the best formation, with the best players, it doesn't mean that you are. If you want a football management game that is based on player vs player matching then go play FIFA. While player skill and formation does play a part in the match outcome team blend, weather conditions, morale, confidence, mentality and the media play a much bigger part. You don't see teams going to Old Trafford, playing full-on attack and getting anything from the game, neither do you see Arsenal sitting deep at home, Barcelona playing short, simple passing in the rain or Brazil playing wide on narrow pitches. Similarly you would play two lumbering centre halves high up the pitch against a pacey striker. You also cannot expect your team to magically play to your brand new magical formation within 5 minutes of getting on the pitch, learning a new formation does, and will, take time, the same can be said for new playing coming into the team without prior knowledge of your current players and/or language. Just like in real life, matches are not determined by whom has the 'better' players.
As for training, have you actually looked into it other than assume everything is hunky-dorey and relying on your monthly report for updates? Each player has an in-depth history of their training where you can look at overall increases/decreases or changes in a specific stat since they joined your club. Training schedules can be created and tweaked to your hearts content and coaches can be hired/re-assigned for certain roles. Like above, putting somebody on an intensive training regime will not bear fruit immediately, it will take several months before you see a real benefit. You also cannot expect established players to improve significantly as, as in real life, improvements to players mainly take place before their early 20's.
I don't quite get your point regarding transfers, while the current in-game system isn't perfect it isn't that far removed from how things happen in the modern game, is it? If you are after a player who is in contract at a current club and isn't transfer listed you are going to pay over the odds for him regardless of how good he actually is (Andy Carroll), however if a player is near the end of his contract, past his prime or transfer listed he will generally be available for a lot less (Steven Pienaar). The same works for you selling your players, if one of your first team players is attracting interest from bigger clubs and you have him tied down to a contract you can accept whatever the hell you want for him, "through the nose" even, however if you are trying to offload somebody you don't want any more or is coming up for expiry how can you expect people to pay the asking price for them? I have sold plenty of players for more than their market value (and much, much more) by taking this into consideration.
Your "complete control" argument is also tosh, telling one overly-enlarged sprite at a time to pass, move, shoot or tackle isn't what I consider 'complete control'. Running a football club from the top down, the first team tactics and preparation, the fringe players in the reserves, the prospects in my under-19's side, buying and selling players both for the coming seasons, the future, or just for profit, managing and maintaining the club staff, training and ground facilities making drastic (or minute) changes to match tactics (during and before games), training schedules or scouting assignments and interactions with literally any person in the footballing World is what I would consider closer to "complete control".
Simple answer is though, if you don't like it, don't play it. I'm sure all the other gamers who consider FIFA the pinnacle of the footballing gaming will be happy to count another among their number. I'll be happy playing and using the FM series for what it is, a full simulation of the footballing World and leaving FIFA for what it does best, an arcadey, simplified version of the beautiful game which I love, good for 20-30 minute bursts at a time.
Just because you believe you are playing the best formation, with the best players, it doesn't mean that you are. If you want a football management game that is based on player vs player matching then go play FIFA. While player skill and formation does play a part in the match outcome team blend, weather conditions, morale, confidence, mentality and the media play a much bigger part. You don't see teams going to Old Trafford, playing full-on attack and getting anything from the game, neither do you see Arsenal sitting deep at home, Barcelona playing short, simple passing in the rain or Brazil playing wide on narrow pitches. Similarly you would play two lumbering centre halves high up the pitch against a pacey striker. You also cannot expect your team to magically play to your brand new magical formation within 5 minutes of getting on the pitch, learning a new formation does, and will, take time, the same can be said for new playing coming into the team without prior knowledge of your current players and/or language. Just like in real life, matches are not determined by whom has the 'better' players.
As for training, have you actually looked into it other than assume everything is hunky-dorey and relying on your monthly report for updates? Each player has an in-depth history of their training where you can look at overall increases/decreases or changes in a specific stat since they joined your club. Training schedules can be created and tweaked to your hearts content and coaches can be hired/re-assigned for certain roles. Like above, putting somebody on an intensive training regime will not bear fruit immediately, it will take several months before you see a real benefit. You also cannot expect established players to improve significantly as, as in real life, improvements to players mainly take place before their early 20's.
I don't quite get your point regarding transfers, while the current in-game system isn't perfect it isn't that far removed from how things happen in the modern game, is it? If you are after a player who is in contract at a current club and isn't transfer listed you are going to pay over the odds for him regardless of how good he actually is (Andy Carroll), however if a player is near the end of his contract, past his prime or transfer listed he will generally be available for a lot less (Steven Pienaar). The same works for you selling your players, if one of your first team players is attracting interest from bigger clubs and you have him tied down to a contract you can accept whatever the hell you want for him, "through the nose" even, however if you are trying to offload somebody you don't want any more or is coming up for expiry how can you expect people to pay the asking price for them? I have sold plenty of players for more than their market value (and much, much more) by taking this into consideration.
Your "complete control" argument is also tosh, telling one overly-enlarged sprite at a time to pass, move, shoot or tackle isn't what I consider 'complete control'. Running a football club from the top down, the first team tactics and preparation, the fringe players in the reserves, the prospects in my under-19's side, buying and selling players both for the coming seasons, the future, or just for profit, managing and maintaining the club staff, training and ground facilities making drastic (or minute) changes to match tactics (during and before games), training schedules or scouting assignments and interactions with literally any person in the footballing World is what I would consider closer to "complete control".
Simple answer is though, if you don't like it, don't play it. I'm sure all the other gamers who consider FIFA the pinnacle of the footballing gaming will be happy to count another among their number. I'll be happy playing and using the FM series for what it is, a full simulation of the footballing World and leaving FIFA for what it does best, an arcadey, simplified version of the beautiful game which I love, good for 20-30 minute bursts at a time.
I'll agree with your point about transfers, the game doesn't seem to deal fairly with the player at all.
I'm more of a FIFA person myself. At least you're in complete control on FIFA.
Another bad point about FM - ridiculous transfers. You offer for a player, you're expected to pay through the nose, when you try and sell a player, you're lucky to get the player value offered.
Another bad point about FM - ridiculous transfers. You offer for a player, you're expected to pay through the nose, when you try and sell a player, you're lucky to get the player value offered.
Yeah, many people will and do disagree with you ;)
Personally, I prefer to generally play games where I am more involved (like FIFA) and on a similar level, I prefer to play full team than Be a Pro.
Personally, I prefer to generally play games where I am more involved (like FIFA) and on a similar level, I prefer to play full team than Be a Pro.
Well it's through playing FM 2011 that I'm questioning the entire genre of this game. It just doesn't work. I don't understand how you can have a game that is so loosely dependent on player input, it's such a strange idea.
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