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Reading the recent retro freaks magazine Games TM the fear that Nintendo have lost it dawned on me. Here was a magazine that criticised everything the Gamecube had to offer, showing SNES games claiming “This is what Nintendo used to be about”. They weren’t anti-Nintendo although definitely pro-X-box they were disappointed as yet another Mario Kart game fails to beat it’s predecessors.
There appears to be two schools of criticisms, one that Nintendo have changed their lead franchises too much (mainly the die-hard fan base) and two that Nintendo are no longer fresh and new (mainly the opposition fans). Both totally contradictory in terms and so one is wrong, well no actually they are both wrong.
In a society obsessed with comparison it is no surprise Nintendo may appear to falter in its new generation. How can you say Super Mario Sunshine doesn’t surpass Super Mario 64? “Easy” I’m told “the game does nothing new, it is shorter and lacks variation”. Eh? Are you trying to tell me that Mario Sunshine does nothing over Mario 64???? Mario 64 was a revolution, a stunning title that started this interactive 3D world and no one can begin to describe the effect this game had on the industry. BUT it wasn’t nearly as good as you remember it, you always look back through rose tinted glasses, games get better as time goes on. Sunshine was easily as fun as Mario 64 was, it may have had no ice level but we had an underwater section, a ghost house section. A lava segment and even a roller coaster level! Despite it being set on an island, which is another sign of Mario progressing from his traditional worlds, the game did consist of far more variety than first discussed. Then there is FLUDD, who is fantastic SIMPLY because of the depth it added to Mario’s own genre. Mario in platforming had a set height and length he could jump, the main challenge was defeating enemies. In Sunshine, Miyamoto invented a device that incorporated a host of new platforming moves and Mario’s weapon as well. It was a VERY good idea; set up with a perfect control system and once again he set up millions of puzzles to work with these new moves. It really was a revolution and a superior title to Mario 64!
But enough about how sunshine surpasses Mario 64 as a stand-alone game. I want to move onto my prime example of The Legend of Zelda. Zelda suffers from something I call give and take syndrome. In order to take the game needs to give. Lets take Ocarina of Time, a game everyone claims to be the best 3D Zelda game. Rubbish the best 3D Zelda game is Wind Waker and that is a fact. Ocarina of Time has the same magic as Wind Waker did, trust me IT DID it felt just as wonderful to play and I know it looks more magical now but compare playing the Wind Waker to playing Ocarina of time and you’ll remember they felt both just as good. But Wind Waker had problems, this is unusual, the sea journeys at times got tiresome, the interaction was very poor and the storyline wasn’t held together too well. But doesn’t a combat system to die for (so beautiful and amazing to control), the worlds best use of cel-shading graphics ever (so amazing) and a level of absolute hilarity make up for it? Doesn’t the ability to fly, the various use of the wind, the new cel-shaded look and the new idea of the sea make this a great example of how sequels should be done? Lets look at Majora’s Mask, doesn’t come close to Ocarina of time they said, and why? Well because of the smaller and less epic filled landscape, the easier dungeons, the crappy saving system and reduced length. But doesn’t the BEST EVER INTERACTION IN A ZELDA GAME make up for that (the 3 day loop is the most ingenious idea to date), doesn’t the gameplay improving and effective mask collecting out match Gold Skultula’s completely? Isn’t the atmosphere the darkest and most daunting in any Zelda game ever? Yes that is right, doing something-new, innovative and amazing means that something has to give in the game. A level of interaction like none other meant the developer was working solidly on that and so the story was reduced. So the interaction could work so well (character doing something different all the time) meant a set number of days were needed and to stop the game becoming too easy the “save anywhere” approach had to be removed…
So lets look at Ocarina of Time, yes it may have be the longest game, the most amazing storyline BUT the enemies were actually rather poor, Hyrule field is big barren and dull, we had to sit through that storyline regarding the 3 Gods TWICE and it was dull the first time and the game at times really felt like a dodgy puzzle game (the water temple)…
Nintendo have not lost it at all. Mario Kart: Double Dash!! is FAR better than Mario Kart 64 and Super Mario Kart. Nintendo have yet to create a masterpiece like they did on the N64 (and oh boy did they create some masterpieces) but they have managed to improve their old masterpieces with new and fresh ideas and take their series’ in other directions. Other than perhaps Metroid Prime Nintendo haven’t created a new game defining moment. This is true, despite their best attempts with Pikmin (give it time). But play the games… and stick with them and the magic is still there… in full force. Just remember the movement from 2D into 3D was always going to be more revolutionary than 3D into 3D… and after all for such a small jump Nintendo have managed to alter their best franchises in the most ingenious of ways.
Dringo.
There appears to be two schools of criticisms, one that Nintendo have changed their lead franchises too much (mainly the die-hard fan base) and two that Nintendo are no longer fresh and new (mainly the opposition fans). Both totally contradictory in terms and so one is wrong, well no actually they are both wrong.
In a society obsessed with comparison it is no surprise Nintendo may appear to falter in its new generation. How can you say Super Mario Sunshine doesn’t surpass Super Mario 64? “Easy” I’m told “the game does nothing new, it is shorter and lacks variation”. Eh? Are you trying to tell me that Mario Sunshine does nothing over Mario 64???? Mario 64 was a revolution, a stunning title that started this interactive 3D world and no one can begin to describe the effect this game had on the industry. BUT it wasn’t nearly as good as you remember it, you always look back through rose tinted glasses, games get better as time goes on. Sunshine was easily as fun as Mario 64 was, it may have had no ice level but we had an underwater section, a ghost house section. A lava segment and even a roller coaster level! Despite it being set on an island, which is another sign of Mario progressing from his traditional worlds, the game did consist of far more variety than first discussed. Then there is FLUDD, who is fantastic SIMPLY because of the depth it added to Mario’s own genre. Mario in platforming had a set height and length he could jump, the main challenge was defeating enemies. In Sunshine, Miyamoto invented a device that incorporated a host of new platforming moves and Mario’s weapon as well. It was a VERY good idea; set up with a perfect control system and once again he set up millions of puzzles to work with these new moves. It really was a revolution and a superior title to Mario 64!
But enough about how sunshine surpasses Mario 64 as a stand-alone game. I want to move onto my prime example of The Legend of Zelda. Zelda suffers from something I call give and take syndrome. In order to take the game needs to give. Lets take Ocarina of Time, a game everyone claims to be the best 3D Zelda game. Rubbish the best 3D Zelda game is Wind Waker and that is a fact. Ocarina of Time has the same magic as Wind Waker did, trust me IT DID it felt just as wonderful to play and I know it looks more magical now but compare playing the Wind Waker to playing Ocarina of time and you’ll remember they felt both just as good. But Wind Waker had problems, this is unusual, the sea journeys at times got tiresome, the interaction was very poor and the storyline wasn’t held together too well. But doesn’t a combat system to die for (so beautiful and amazing to control), the worlds best use of cel-shading graphics ever (so amazing) and a level of absolute hilarity make up for it? Doesn’t the ability to fly, the various use of the wind, the new cel-shaded look and the new idea of the sea make this a great example of how sequels should be done? Lets look at Majora’s Mask, doesn’t come close to Ocarina of time they said, and why? Well because of the smaller and less epic filled landscape, the easier dungeons, the crappy saving system and reduced length. But doesn’t the BEST EVER INTERACTION IN A ZELDA GAME make up for that (the 3 day loop is the most ingenious idea to date), doesn’t the gameplay improving and effective mask collecting out match Gold Skultula’s completely? Isn’t the atmosphere the darkest and most daunting in any Zelda game ever? Yes that is right, doing something-new, innovative and amazing means that something has to give in the game. A level of interaction like none other meant the developer was working solidly on that and so the story was reduced. So the interaction could work so well (character doing something different all the time) meant a set number of days were needed and to stop the game becoming too easy the “save anywhere” approach had to be removed…
So lets look at Ocarina of Time, yes it may have be the longest game, the most amazing storyline BUT the enemies were actually rather poor, Hyrule field is big barren and dull, we had to sit through that storyline regarding the 3 Gods TWICE and it was dull the first time and the game at times really felt like a dodgy puzzle game (the water temple)…
Nintendo have not lost it at all. Mario Kart: Double Dash!! is FAR better than Mario Kart 64 and Super Mario Kart. Nintendo have yet to create a masterpiece like they did on the N64 (and oh boy did they create some masterpieces) but they have managed to improve their old masterpieces with new and fresh ideas and take their series’ in other directions. Other than perhaps Metroid Prime Nintendo haven’t created a new game defining moment. This is true, despite their best attempts with Pikmin (give it time). But play the games… and stick with them and the magic is still there… in full force. Just remember the movement from 2D into 3D was always going to be more revolutionary than 3D into 3D… and after all for such a small jump Nintendo have managed to alter their best franchises in the most ingenious of ways.
Dringo.
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Prefered Dan UK
But Wind Waker was a classic traditional Zelda game and I will not budge on that fact.
But Wind Waker was a classic traditional Zelda game and I will not budge on that fact.
By the way, like the new name? :-)
Yeah, so Windwaker wasn't bad, we got a few cheap laughs out of it and it did have it's charms.
But there WAS a time when a Zelda game would re-define what an adventure game should be, when it would set new standards for games in general, and blow people away by pushing all the previous boundaries.
Windwaker went a little way to this, with the afore mentioned fantastic controls and slick animation, but in every other area in under performed, just beating OOT in someplaces, and not even surpassing it's 5 year old predecessor in others.
Not that that's a hugely terrible thing, after all, OOT had set high standards to match.
But when Nintendo had "it", a Zelda game would be so much more! :-)
As to Mario, it's been semi-epic since Mario 3 and Mario World.
Mario 64 down-sized it a little, but there was a very good excuse to that.
These new-fangled 3D levels took a lot more work than those old simplistic 2D levels.
With the basic mechanics in place, Nintendo should have had no problems on expanding on these levels.
They did in one respect - Sunshine's levels were generally a lot more detailed and lively than 64's levels, but there was also a lot less of them and they seemed to end a bit quicker (although that was perhaps because I was better at the game, having mastered the first).
Not that Sunshine was a bad game.
It's possibly the most playable little gems I've ever come across.
But there was so little to it.
Even less content than Mario 64!
If Nintendo had been using "it", we'd have had a LOT more of a game in there.
And Nintendo know what they're doing.
They have consistantly mentioned that they're making games smaller and easier.
Which is fair enough as that's the sort of game the market has been demanding lately, but I'll miss how Nintendo used running to be at the very forefront of gaming.
Now they're sticking one arm in front so "technically" they're in the lead, but you can tell that the rest of the body is lagging behind.
But there WAS a time when a Zelda game would re-define what an adventure game should be, when it would set new standards for games in general, and blow people away by pushing all the previous boundaries.
Windwaker went a little way to this, with the afore mentioned fantastic controls and slick animation, but in every other area in under performed, just beating OOT in someplaces, and not even surpassing it's 5 year old predecessor in others.
Not that that's a hugely terrible thing, after all, OOT had set high standards to match.
But when Nintendo had "it", a Zelda game would be so much more! :-)
As to Mario, it's been semi-epic since Mario 3 and Mario World.
Mario 64 down-sized it a little, but there was a very good excuse to that.
These new-fangled 3D levels took a lot more work than those old simplistic 2D levels.
With the basic mechanics in place, Nintendo should have had no problems on expanding on these levels.
They did in one respect - Sunshine's levels were generally a lot more detailed and lively than 64's levels, but there was also a lot less of them and they seemed to end a bit quicker (although that was perhaps because I was better at the game, having mastered the first).
Not that Sunshine was a bad game.
It's possibly the most playable little gems I've ever come across.
But there was so little to it.
Even less content than Mario 64!
If Nintendo had been using "it", we'd have had a LOT more of a game in there.
And Nintendo know what they're doing.
They have consistantly mentioned that they're making games smaller and easier.
Which is fair enough as that's the sort of game the market has been demanding lately, but I'll miss how Nintendo used running to be at the very forefront of gaming.
Now they're sticking one arm in front so "technically" they're in the lead, but you can tell that the rest of the body is lagging behind.
Now Now Now Now Now.
Let me begin with saying I never found Mario an epic, it was always a game that had a mission and a storyline but the idea was to do it and have a great laugh doing it. Sunshine did it in a different way (and it was still a big game) and was just as fun. Mario was about fun always has been I've never seen the EPIC side of it.
Regarding Epic titles I'm thinking of Zelda here... and that is really about it. Games that had a developing story that was beautifully, long lasting, funny and sorta like a movie... Zelda is the epic big budget fantastic film such as lord of the rings... it had everything... Mario was Pirates of the CAribbean... a real good laugh.
Wind Waker's story was not as big and in depth as Ocarina of Time's, not because it couldn't be but because they got bored of telling it half way through. The story was sprawling and facinating until we got to the temple thing that emerged from the sea, from that moment on Nintendo seemed to get bored of telling the story and rushed the next segment... we had to wait till the end for the story to open up more.
BUT it still had the same epic feeling of Zelda, I was still discovering hidden areas and secret sections amongst the islands. Whereas Majora's Mask had a lot of interaction Wind Waker replaced with loads of little games. The cannon game for example, or the baddie fighting where you started to learn how to battle and saw the beauty of the character animations.
Walking into the Deku island place to see these green fairies rise from the river, Koroks fall from the Deku tree and the tree literally come to life in front of you. How nostalgic you felt to see a destroyed temple of time but the statue of link still standing strong. The moment you gave to look at the stain glass windows with the sages, the laugh you had delivering to the mobolin loving young lady her letter and her jubilant cries of "he want to eat me".
Returning to your home town to practice with the guru dude. Discovering the submarines, looking around the hidden islands. Getting into the mini-dungeons. Hitting the best Zelda character yet in regards to the fish dude.
"Kay" still rings in my ear to this day.
Is wind waker the best Zelda? Probably not. Is Wind Waker a Zelda? YEs it is and that automatically equates to an epic title.
As for Metroid Prime half of EAD joined Retro to sort that game out and Eternal Darkness was a beauty of a game.
Let me begin with saying I never found Mario an epic, it was always a game that had a mission and a storyline but the idea was to do it and have a great laugh doing it. Sunshine did it in a different way (and it was still a big game) and was just as fun. Mario was about fun always has been I've never seen the EPIC side of it.
Regarding Epic titles I'm thinking of Zelda here... and that is really about it. Games that had a developing story that was beautifully, long lasting, funny and sorta like a movie... Zelda is the epic big budget fantastic film such as lord of the rings... it had everything... Mario was Pirates of the CAribbean... a real good laugh.
Wind Waker's story was not as big and in depth as Ocarina of Time's, not because it couldn't be but because they got bored of telling it half way through. The story was sprawling and facinating until we got to the temple thing that emerged from the sea, from that moment on Nintendo seemed to get bored of telling the story and rushed the next segment... we had to wait till the end for the story to open up more.
BUT it still had the same epic feeling of Zelda, I was still discovering hidden areas and secret sections amongst the islands. Whereas Majora's Mask had a lot of interaction Wind Waker replaced with loads of little games. The cannon game for example, or the baddie fighting where you started to learn how to battle and saw the beauty of the character animations.
Walking into the Deku island place to see these green fairies rise from the river, Koroks fall from the Deku tree and the tree literally come to life in front of you. How nostalgic you felt to see a destroyed temple of time but the statue of link still standing strong. The moment you gave to look at the stain glass windows with the sages, the laugh you had delivering to the mobolin loving young lady her letter and her jubilant cries of "he want to eat me".
Returning to your home town to practice with the guru dude. Discovering the submarines, looking around the hidden islands. Getting into the mini-dungeons. Hitting the best Zelda character yet in regards to the fish dude.
"Kay" still rings in my ear to this day.
Is wind waker the best Zelda? Probably not. Is Wind Waker a Zelda? YEs it is and that automatically equates to an epic title.
As for Metroid Prime half of EAD joined Retro to sort that game out and Eternal Darkness was a beauty of a game.
TGMbloke wrote:
> Agreed. You know I nearly had a heart attack when I saw the
> "Second best thing to do in the dark" campaign. Thats the
> naughtiest phrase ever said by anyone in Nintendo, inculding all the
> Rare "butt" jokes they published.
What about the american Super Mario Advance 4 adverts?
Do you remember your first time?
Two adults grinning at eachother.
Then they begin playing Mario Brothers 3.
> Agreed. You know I nearly had a heart attack when I saw the
> "Second best thing to do in the dark" campaign. Thats the
> naughtiest phrase ever said by anyone in Nintendo, inculding all the
> Rare "butt" jokes they published.
What about the american Super Mario Advance 4 adverts?
Do you remember your first time?
Two adults grinning at eachother.
Then they begin playing Mario Brothers 3.
Play a Final Fantasy game or Orcarina of Time.
THAT'S epic.
Yeah, Windwaker had it's moments but the story didn't grip me in the least.
It was do this, sail here, do that, sail there.
Nothing seemed to matter as no one seemed to be in any danger.
Maybe it was because I'd seen it all before in previous Zelda games, but everything seemed cliché this time round.
And compared to Orcarina of Time, the ONLY way it improves is in the graphics and controls, which are fantastic but the rest of the game fails to compliment them to their full potential.
Not that it's bad by any standards, not even Nintendo's.
But while Orcarina was amazing, this is just good.
It sets new standards in character control.
The rest of the game ranges from quite good to mediocre.
Which is alright, but it's not epic by all means, and if Nintendo still have "it", they sure as hell weren't using "it" in this game.
THAT'S epic.
Yeah, Windwaker had it's moments but the story didn't grip me in the least.
It was do this, sail here, do that, sail there.
Nothing seemed to matter as no one seemed to be in any danger.
Maybe it was because I'd seen it all before in previous Zelda games, but everything seemed cliché this time round.
And compared to Orcarina of Time, the ONLY way it improves is in the graphics and controls, which are fantastic but the rest of the game fails to compliment them to their full potential.
Not that it's bad by any standards, not even Nintendo's.
But while Orcarina was amazing, this is just good.
It sets new standards in character control.
The rest of the game ranges from quite good to mediocre.
Which is alright, but it's not epic by all means, and if Nintendo still have "it", they sure as hell weren't using "it" in this game.
Windwaker can not be classified as not epic.
It's the very definition of epic in my opinion - just look at Link when he's using the Deku Leaf in the huge room in the Wind Temple, with giant fan in the floor. Or sailing towards an island, the sky aflame with a sunset.
Or fighting Gannondorf where you fight him....
Must complete it again.
It's the very definition of epic in my opinion - just look at Link when he's using the Deku Leaf in the huge room in the Wind Temple, with giant fan in the floor. Or sailing towards an island, the sky aflame with a sunset.
Or fighting Gannondorf where you fight him....
Must complete it again.
Strafex wrote:
> As to Windwaker and Mario Sunshine, I wouldn't class them as epic at
> all.
I can agree with you on Super Mario sunshine, but The wind waker is a game wich really deserves to be called epic.
You can not say that the wind waker is not an epic.
The gameplay, the story, the graphics and the length of the game made the game into a masterpiece.
> As to Windwaker and Mario Sunshine, I wouldn't class them as epic at
> all.
I can agree with you on Super Mario sunshine, but The wind waker is a game wich really deserves to be called epic.
You can not say that the wind waker is not an epic.
The gameplay, the story, the graphics and the length of the game made the game into a masterpiece.
It's the bestest game evah, and I have no idea why you boycotted it, because it roolz.
I boycotted Metroid from the moment it cut out 50% of the game's potential as the merger between the sublime fun playability of a platformer like Mario, combined with the intense shooting action and skillfest of Perfect Dark, wrapped up in a land with as much mystique, exploration and adventure as Zelda.
Still, apparently it's still very good, just not the mind blower a TRUE "Super Metroid in 3D" WOULD have been.
Rare could have done it! :-P
Still, apparently it's still very good, just not the mind blower a TRUE "Super Metroid in 3D" WOULD have been.
Rare could have done it! :-P
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