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Well, after a long wait, the rabbi I emailed has responded. I'll include both my initial question and his response. I look forward to seeing Forest Fan either refuse to respond to this thread, or simply claim that the Rabbi is wrong and that he knows more about Judaism than any mere Holy Man does...
You Asked:
I'm currently engaged in a theological debate with someone who claims to be a "Jewish Christian". I believe that it is impossible to be both Jewish and Christian, although he is certainly a Semetic Christian. Am I right in saying this? Is he part of a ropey evangelical cult, or is it possible to belong to both faiths simultaneously?
Thanks in advance.
Rabbi Wiko Answered:
Dear Stuart,
Since Christianity speaks of G-D in human form (Jesus) it is as opposite as anything can ever be to what Judaism teaches us. Therefore, it can not be that one person can be both. To accept Christianity is to deny Judaism. Period, end of topic.
I don't know to which group of "thinkers" he belongs, nor is it important....he isn't Jewish and should not proport himself as being Jewish. Christianity is a fine religion...all religions, when lived properly are fine.
There are many semites in the world. Most of them are not Jewish.
Shalom,
Rabbi Dan Wiko
You Asked:
I'm currently engaged in a theological debate with someone who claims to be a "Jewish Christian". I believe that it is impossible to be both Jewish and Christian, although he is certainly a Semetic Christian. Am I right in saying this? Is he part of a ropey evangelical cult, or is it possible to belong to both faiths simultaneously?
Thanks in advance.
Rabbi Wiko Answered:
Dear Stuart,
Since Christianity speaks of G-D in human form (Jesus) it is as opposite as anything can ever be to what Judaism teaches us. Therefore, it can not be that one person can be both. To accept Christianity is to deny Judaism. Period, end of topic.
I don't know to which group of "thinkers" he belongs, nor is it important....he isn't Jewish and should not proport himself as being Jewish. Christianity is a fine religion...all religions, when lived properly are fine.
There are many semites in the world. Most of them are not Jewish.
Shalom,
Rabbi Dan Wiko
Page:
"All they do is say that a messiah will one day come. Jews don't deny that. What Jews DO deny is that Jesus Christ was that messiah. They're still waiting for their messiah y'see. Which is why it is so physically impossible to be both Jewish (who say that the messiah has not yet appeared on this earth) and Christian (who say that Jesus was the Messiah)."
I feel this quote is one that he'll have trouble arguing against.
Although, knowing him, he'll try anyway.
I feel this quote is one that he'll have trouble arguing against.
Although, knowing him, he'll try anyway.
Forest Fan wrote:
> Light, it's so blindingly obvious that Isaiah 7:14 ("Therefore
> the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child
> and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.") and
> Isaiah 53:5 ("But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was
> crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was
> upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.") that I actually
> fear for your intelligence if you can still deny that the Old
> Testament does not back up the New.
Hmm...a rather obvious attempt to wind me up there, but we'll let it pass. After all, you've already had some of the contradictions between Old and New testaments pointed out to you, and it's good fun watching you pretend that you haven't.
What I'd really like to concentrate on is the nonsensical nature of this paragraph. What exactly do both of those Old Testament quotes have to do with proving one can be both Jewish and Christian? All they do is say that a messiah will one day come. Jews don't deny that. What Jews DO deny is that Jesus Christ was that messiah. They're still waiting for their messiah y'see. Which is why it is so physically impossible to be both Jewish (who say that the messiah has not yet appeared on this earth) and Christian (who say that Jesus was the Messiah).
>
> The Jewish scriptures clearly state the common belief in a Messiah. A
> Jewish belief is that there will be a Messiah to the Jews; Jesus.
Alas, the Jews also clearly state that the Messiah hasn't yet arrived. You see, the key to your phrase there is that even you admit that Jews only say that there will be a messiah. They don't EVER say that there has been a messiah. I presume your GCSE english lessons have taught you the difference between past and future tenses?
So, with that in mind, would you like to tell me where any Jewish Holy Scripture states that the messiah has been, and it was Jesus who was He?
>
> No doubt, you'll find some reason, why however, Isaiah 53 doesn't
> refer to Jesus. Not that any rabbi has ever been able to give a
> satisfactory explanation to that chapter.
Bwahahahahahahahaaaaaa! Yes, I believe the reason I'll find is that all Jews across the world believe that Jesus was not the Messiah. That's a pretty good reason, wouldn't you say?
Also, you say that no rabbi has even given a satisfactory explanation? And yet here you are, trying to say that it explains everything. Tell me Forest, are you trying to say that you've succeeded where every rabbi on earth has failed?
Anyway, I'll pass your comments to the rabbi, and post his response once I get it. Frankly, I'm having way too much fun watching you make perhaps the biggest fool you've yet made of yourself to let this drop.
> Light, it's so blindingly obvious that Isaiah 7:14 ("Therefore
> the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child
> and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.") and
> Isaiah 53:5 ("But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was
> crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was
> upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.") that I actually
> fear for your intelligence if you can still deny that the Old
> Testament does not back up the New.
Hmm...a rather obvious attempt to wind me up there, but we'll let it pass. After all, you've already had some of the contradictions between Old and New testaments pointed out to you, and it's good fun watching you pretend that you haven't.
What I'd really like to concentrate on is the nonsensical nature of this paragraph. What exactly do both of those Old Testament quotes have to do with proving one can be both Jewish and Christian? All they do is say that a messiah will one day come. Jews don't deny that. What Jews DO deny is that Jesus Christ was that messiah. They're still waiting for their messiah y'see. Which is why it is so physically impossible to be both Jewish (who say that the messiah has not yet appeared on this earth) and Christian (who say that Jesus was the Messiah).
>
> The Jewish scriptures clearly state the common belief in a Messiah. A
> Jewish belief is that there will be a Messiah to the Jews; Jesus.
Alas, the Jews also clearly state that the Messiah hasn't yet arrived. You see, the key to your phrase there is that even you admit that Jews only say that there will be a messiah. They don't EVER say that there has been a messiah. I presume your GCSE english lessons have taught you the difference between past and future tenses?
So, with that in mind, would you like to tell me where any Jewish Holy Scripture states that the messiah has been, and it was Jesus who was He?
>
> No doubt, you'll find some reason, why however, Isaiah 53 doesn't
> refer to Jesus. Not that any rabbi has ever been able to give a
> satisfactory explanation to that chapter.
Bwahahahahahahahaaaaaa! Yes, I believe the reason I'll find is that all Jews across the world believe that Jesus was not the Messiah. That's a pretty good reason, wouldn't you say?
Also, you say that no rabbi has even given a satisfactory explanation? And yet here you are, trying to say that it explains everything. Tell me Forest, are you trying to say that you've succeeded where every rabbi on earth has failed?
Anyway, I'll pass your comments to the rabbi, and post his response once I get it. Frankly, I'm having way too much fun watching you make perhaps the biggest fool you've yet made of yourself to let this drop.
Forest Fan wrote:
> The Jewish scriptures clearly state the common belief in a Messiah. A
> Jewish belief is that there will be a Messiah to the Jews; Jesus.
>
> No doubt, you'll find some reason, why however, Isaiah 53 doesn't
> refer to Jesus. Not that any rabbi has ever been able to give a
> satisfactory explanation to that chapter.
I'm fairly sure that the Jewish view of the Messiah is *not* a son of god, and someone who will usher in a lasting and global peace. Once which they are still waiting for.
Christianity has certainly not succeeded in that respect during the past two thousand years.
Still, could be wrong.
> The Jewish scriptures clearly state the common belief in a Messiah. A
> Jewish belief is that there will be a Messiah to the Jews; Jesus.
>
> No doubt, you'll find some reason, why however, Isaiah 53 doesn't
> refer to Jesus. Not that any rabbi has ever been able to give a
> satisfactory explanation to that chapter.
I'm fairly sure that the Jewish view of the Messiah is *not* a son of god, and someone who will usher in a lasting and global peace. Once which they are still waiting for.
Christianity has certainly not succeeded in that respect during the past two thousand years.
Still, could be wrong.
Light wrote:
> Well, being as how the Bible is the holy book of Christians and not
> Jews, I'm at something of a loss as to why he would have to. Why, do
> you have biblical evidence saying that you can be both Christian and
> Jew? Does it say explicitly in both Bible and Talmud that you can be
> both?
Light, it's so blindingly obvious that Isaiah 7:14 ("Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.") and Isaiah 53:5 ("But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.") that I actually fear for your intelligence if you can still deny that the Old Testament does not back up the New.
>
> Tell you what; why don't you address the point raised by the nice
> rabbi. Explain to me just how it is possible for you to be both Jew
> and Christian when Jews don't believe God has ever taken human form,
> and Christians do.
The Jewish scriptures clearly state the common belief in a Messiah. A Jewish belief is that there will be a Messiah to the Jews; Jesus.
No doubt, you'll find some reason, why however, Isaiah 53 doesn't refer to Jesus. Not that any rabbi has ever been able to give a satisfactory explanation to that chapter.
> Well, being as how the Bible is the holy book of Christians and not
> Jews, I'm at something of a loss as to why he would have to. Why, do
> you have biblical evidence saying that you can be both Christian and
> Jew? Does it say explicitly in both Bible and Talmud that you can be
> both?
Light, it's so blindingly obvious that Isaiah 7:14 ("Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.") and Isaiah 53:5 ("But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.") that I actually fear for your intelligence if you can still deny that the Old Testament does not back up the New.
>
> Tell you what; why don't you address the point raised by the nice
> rabbi. Explain to me just how it is possible for you to be both Jew
> and Christian when Jews don't believe God has ever taken human form,
> and Christians do.
The Jewish scriptures clearly state the common belief in a Messiah. A Jewish belief is that there will be a Messiah to the Jews; Jesus.
No doubt, you'll find some reason, why however, Isaiah 53 doesn't refer to Jesus. Not that any rabbi has ever been able to give a satisfactory explanation to that chapter.
I'm planning to. I'm waiting to see if he'll respond to my question first though. In the meantime, I've emailed every vaguely semetic friend and colleague I have and invited them to have a look at his post in this thread. Reactions are varying from "...I'm stunned. Who IS this arrogant little toerag?" right through to "Does he realise how offensive to Judaism his words are? Do you have his schools address?"
I'm guessing though that we'll soon see the last of Forest Fan. He'll doubtless find another webboard where he can pretend to be special and not get asked to do anything as challenging as think about what he says.
I'm guessing though that we'll soon see the last of Forest Fan. He'll doubtless find another webboard where he can pretend to be special and not get asked to do anything as challenging as think about what he says.
You should send his reply to the Rabbi.
Forest Fan wrote:
> Goatboy wrote:
> He won't reply, simple as that.
>
> Such arrogance, but anyway back to the topic.
Well, you'd know my dear boy; you're the one claiming to know more about judaism than a rabbi...
>
> Has this Rabbi used one piece of Biblical evidence to support his
> conclusion that being a Jewish Christian isn't feasible? Because I
> certainly couldn't find any evidence there...
Well, being as how the Bible is the holy book of Christians and not Jews, I'm at something of a loss as to why he would have to. Why, do you have biblical evidence saying that you can be both Christian and Jew? Does it say explicitly in both Bible and Talmud that you can be both?
Tell you what; why don't you address the point raised by the nice rabbi. Explain to me just how it is possible for you to be both Jew and Christian when Jews don't believe God has ever taken human form, and Christians do. In your own time now, in your own time. After all, you're saying that you personally can't find any evidence to say you can't, and i'm intrigued to see how you, a 14 year old boy, are more knowledgeable about Judaism than a rabbi.
Heh; I'm enjoying this. Watching you try to squirm and slither your way out of the humiliation you've brought on yourself is greatly amusing, and perhaps one of the best Xmas presents I could have received.
> Goatboy wrote:
> He won't reply, simple as that.
>
> Such arrogance, but anyway back to the topic.
Well, you'd know my dear boy; you're the one claiming to know more about judaism than a rabbi...
>
> Has this Rabbi used one piece of Biblical evidence to support his
> conclusion that being a Jewish Christian isn't feasible? Because I
> certainly couldn't find any evidence there...
Well, being as how the Bible is the holy book of Christians and not Jews, I'm at something of a loss as to why he would have to. Why, do you have biblical evidence saying that you can be both Christian and Jew? Does it say explicitly in both Bible and Talmud that you can be both?
Tell you what; why don't you address the point raised by the nice rabbi. Explain to me just how it is possible for you to be both Jew and Christian when Jews don't believe God has ever taken human form, and Christians do. In your own time now, in your own time. After all, you're saying that you personally can't find any evidence to say you can't, and i'm intrigued to see how you, a 14 year old boy, are more knowledgeable about Judaism than a rabbi.
Heh; I'm enjoying this. Watching you try to squirm and slither your way out of the humiliation you've brought on yourself is greatly amusing, and perhaps one of the best Xmas presents I could have received.
Father Crilly wrote:
> One of two things are going to happen;
>
> He'll avoid this entirely and won't reply
> or
> He'll show his arrogance by completely going against what the Rabbi
> said.
Looks like it's answer b...
> One of two things are going to happen;
>
> He'll avoid this entirely and won't reply
> or
> He'll show his arrogance by completely going against what the Rabbi
> said.
Looks like it's answer b...
Goatboy wrote:
> He won't reply, simple as that.
Such arrogance, but anyway back to the topic.
Has this Rabbi used one piece of Biblical evidence to support his conclusion that being a Jewish Christian isn't feasible? Because I certainly couldn't find any evidence there...
> He won't reply, simple as that.
Such arrogance, but anyway back to the topic.
Has this Rabbi used one piece of Biblical evidence to support his conclusion that being a Jewish Christian isn't feasible? Because I certainly couldn't find any evidence there...
There's some hardcore Christian at my sixth form who was telling me something alone these lines. There's a special name for the group of people who were born Jewish but follow Christianity instead, but to follow the teachings of both at once is clearly impossible.
Page: