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Well, after a long wait, the rabbi I emailed has responded. I'll include both my initial question and his response. I look forward to seeing Forest Fan either refuse to respond to this thread, or simply claim that the Rabbi is wrong and that he knows more about Judaism than any mere Holy Man does...
You Asked:
I'm currently engaged in a theological debate with someone who claims to be a "Jewish Christian". I believe that it is impossible to be both Jewish and Christian, although he is certainly a Semetic Christian. Am I right in saying this? Is he part of a ropey evangelical cult, or is it possible to belong to both faiths simultaneously?
Thanks in advance.
Rabbi Wiko Answered:
Dear Stuart,
Since Christianity speaks of G-D in human form (Jesus) it is as opposite as anything can ever be to what Judaism teaches us. Therefore, it can not be that one person can be both. To accept Christianity is to deny Judaism. Period, end of topic.
I don't know to which group of "thinkers" he belongs, nor is it important....he isn't Jewish and should not proport himself as being Jewish. Christianity is a fine religion...all religions, when lived properly are fine.
There are many semites in the world. Most of them are not Jewish.
Shalom,
Rabbi Dan Wiko
You Asked:
I'm currently engaged in a theological debate with someone who claims to be a "Jewish Christian". I believe that it is impossible to be both Jewish and Christian, although he is certainly a Semetic Christian. Am I right in saying this? Is he part of a ropey evangelical cult, or is it possible to belong to both faiths simultaneously?
Thanks in advance.
Rabbi Wiko Answered:
Dear Stuart,
Since Christianity speaks of G-D in human form (Jesus) it is as opposite as anything can ever be to what Judaism teaches us. Therefore, it can not be that one person can be both. To accept Christianity is to deny Judaism. Period, end of topic.
I don't know to which group of "thinkers" he belongs, nor is it important....he isn't Jewish and should not proport himself as being Jewish. Christianity is a fine religion...all religions, when lived properly are fine.
There are many semites in the world. Most of them are not Jewish.
Shalom,
Rabbi Dan Wiko
Page:
Well, me too. But you know Forest and his wacky "I follow the literal word of the Bible. Except when it's my interpretation. But my interpretations are the literal truth" headwrongs...
To me the whole "and will call him Immanuel" sorta points towards that it's not about Christ. ;)
An initial answer from a busy rabbi...
Rabbi Freeman Epstein answered:
To Jews, Isaiah 7:14 does not predict the coming of Jesus. The word virgin is translated as young woman, and is not in any context that we believe could be interpreted as predicting the Messiah.
I'll post the rest as and when I receive it.
Rabbi Freeman Epstein answered:
To Jews, Isaiah 7:14 does not predict the coming of Jesus. The word virgin is translated as young woman, and is not in any context that we believe could be interpreted as predicting the Messiah.
I'll post the rest as and when I receive it.
loki wrote:
> I used to enjoy arguing with him but he really won me over to his side
> with the argument that there were dinosaurs running around in Old
> Testament times. But they just weren't mentioned in the texts as they
> were easy to live with as most of them were the size of sheep.
Heh. Sadly for me, I'm almost physically compelled to make people like him think. By force if need be. Especially when, as in Forests case, they sound like a 1-man-suicide-cult.
> After that I decided to give up sensibly debating any point he raised
> and just smile indulgently at his comments. It's really kinda sweet,
> in a pig-ignorant sort of way.
See, I did think that. Then I saw;
A - The power wielded by equally ignorant people in America, and
B - A faith based school opened near where I live, and
C - Various Evangelical types started talking about how we should be more like America in terms of being faith-driven.
At that point, the red mist descended. I don't have the least problem with religious types, up until the point where they try to bully people into believing what they believe. The sad thing is, a lot of people end up taking the likes of Forest seriously because no-one gives much thought to the complex and difficult scientific explanations for things. And so the evangelicals step up with their nice, easy to understand fairytale.
Do I sound rather driven with pure hatred here? Ah well...
> I used to enjoy arguing with him but he really won me over to his side
> with the argument that there were dinosaurs running around in Old
> Testament times. But they just weren't mentioned in the texts as they
> were easy to live with as most of them were the size of sheep.
Heh. Sadly for me, I'm almost physically compelled to make people like him think. By force if need be. Especially when, as in Forests case, they sound like a 1-man-suicide-cult.
> After that I decided to give up sensibly debating any point he raised
> and just smile indulgently at his comments. It's really kinda sweet,
> in a pig-ignorant sort of way.
See, I did think that. Then I saw;
A - The power wielded by equally ignorant people in America, and
B - A faith based school opened near where I live, and
C - Various Evangelical types started talking about how we should be more like America in terms of being faith-driven.
At that point, the red mist descended. I don't have the least problem with religious types, up until the point where they try to bully people into believing what they believe. The sad thing is, a lot of people end up taking the likes of Forest seriously because no-one gives much thought to the complex and difficult scientific explanations for things. And so the evangelicals step up with their nice, easy to understand fairytale.
Do I sound rather driven with pure hatred here? Ah well...
I used to enjoy arguing with him but he really won me over to his side with the argument that there were dinosaurs running around in Old Testament times. But they just weren't mentioned in the texts as they were easy to live with as most of them were the size of sheep.
After that I decided to give up sensibly debating any point he raised and just smile indulgently at his comments. It's really kinda sweet, in a pig-ignorant sort of way.
After that I decided to give up sensibly debating any point he raised and just smile indulgently at his comments. It's really kinda sweet, in a pig-ignorant sort of way.
loki wrote:
> Although to be fair, he only sounds about as confused as any Christian
> who believes that the Bible is the word of God, so that they should
> not make or worship graven images - then bows down before statues of
> God being nailed to some planks.
Well, true enough; I mean, the Pope only split from the primacy of the Byzantine Emperor when the Emperor declared that the veneration of statues and the like by Roman Christians was idolatry. Since then, the various Christian sects and denominations have proliferated like horny mice. And every one of them claims, without irony, to be the only true church. Neither wonder there hasn't been a second coming. I can imagine Jesus looking down and going "Bl**dy hell Dad, I've just made it worse than it was before. Which part of 'be nice to one another' did they have difficulty with?"
> Whichever way you look at it, they're a confused/confusing bunch.
> Theologians have never managed to agree on interpretations of the
> Bible. No wonder a 14yr old can't follow it. He's not really much
> worse than millions of other thoughtless believers. It's just that
> he's funnier.
That's why Fundamentalists amuse me so; they say "Follow the literal word of the Bible!", and miss out the bit about it being full of contradictions. The logic they come up with to try and reconcile all those contradictions is hysterical. And their absolute conviction that their personal belief is 100% correct, even in the face of differing interpretations (or even plain and simple facts proving them wrong) is more than a little worrying.
Mind you, I still find the fact that all these fundamentalists will hurl invective and hatred at one another for not appreciating God's eternal love in the correct manner to be a source of non-stop fun. And, as you say, Forest is by far the funniest. Must be because of how seriously he takes himself. Either that or his inability to admit he might not know everything...
> Although to be fair, he only sounds about as confused as any Christian
> who believes that the Bible is the word of God, so that they should
> not make or worship graven images - then bows down before statues of
> God being nailed to some planks.
Well, true enough; I mean, the Pope only split from the primacy of the Byzantine Emperor when the Emperor declared that the veneration of statues and the like by Roman Christians was idolatry. Since then, the various Christian sects and denominations have proliferated like horny mice. And every one of them claims, without irony, to be the only true church. Neither wonder there hasn't been a second coming. I can imagine Jesus looking down and going "Bl**dy hell Dad, I've just made it worse than it was before. Which part of 'be nice to one another' did they have difficulty with?"
> Whichever way you look at it, they're a confused/confusing bunch.
> Theologians have never managed to agree on interpretations of the
> Bible. No wonder a 14yr old can't follow it. He's not really much
> worse than millions of other thoughtless believers. It's just that
> he's funnier.
That's why Fundamentalists amuse me so; they say "Follow the literal word of the Bible!", and miss out the bit about it being full of contradictions. The logic they come up with to try and reconcile all those contradictions is hysterical. And their absolute conviction that their personal belief is 100% correct, even in the face of differing interpretations (or even plain and simple facts proving them wrong) is more than a little worrying.
Mind you, I still find the fact that all these fundamentalists will hurl invective and hatred at one another for not appreciating God's eternal love in the correct manner to be a source of non-stop fun. And, as you say, Forest is by far the funniest. Must be because of how seriously he takes himself. Either that or his inability to admit he might not know everything...
Although to be fair, he only sounds about as confused as any Christian who believes that the Bible is the word of God, so that they should not make or worship graven images - then bows down before statues of God being nailed to some planks.
Whichever way you look at it, they're a confused/confusing bunch. Theologians have never managed to agree on interpretations of the Bible. No wonder a 14yr old can't follow it. He's not really much worse than millions of other thoughtless believers. It's just that he's funnier.
Whichever way you look at it, they're a confused/confusing bunch. Theologians have never managed to agree on interpretations of the Bible. No wonder a 14yr old can't follow it. He's not really much worse than millions of other thoughtless believers. It's just that he's funnier.
Oh, some info about Rabbi Wiko as well. Just so we can put into context the fact that Forest, a 14 year old schoolboy, claims to know more about Judaism than this chap...
Rabbi Wiko was born in Shanghai China to parents who escaped from Nazi Germany. He first attended the Mir Yeshiva and then the Khadourie International School. Upon his arrival in New York in 1947, Rabbi Wiko was enrolled in Beth Hillel Torah Academy, attended a public High School and Baruch College, CCNY. He subsequently received an M.A. in Counseling and his PhD in Jewish Studies with a specialty in Mystical Philosophy.
Rabbi Wiko’s earliest desire was to become a rabbi but he put it off until he was able to find a seminary, the Rabbinical Seminary International that, although founded in traditional Judaic teachings, allowed for independent thought and expression of the belief that, despite the need for the maintenance of Traditional teachings, the needs of the individual person must also be acknowledged and taken into account. He received Smicha “Yoreh Yoreh” (Teacher & Counselor) from that Institution.
His functioning as a Human Relations Consultant, Spiritual Counselor and Psychotherapist has kept Rabbi Wiko actively employed and has given him numerous resources with which to serve humanity in general and his clients in particular. He is a Baal Shachris at a modern Orthodox Shul, a Chaplain and Deputy for the Sheriff's Department,a Kiwanian, an Officer of a Jewish Community Council and sits on various other Councils, Boards and Panels. He is a speaker on the lecture circuit on such topics as Mysticism, Spirituality, Religion as well as other Philosophical subjects.
Rabbi Wiko is available for all Jewish Life Cycle events and needs. He is adept at counseling Holocaust survivors as well as their children. He will officiate only at marriages where both partners are, unquestionably, Jewish and have a GET if divorced.
Rabbi Wiko was born in Shanghai China to parents who escaped from Nazi Germany. He first attended the Mir Yeshiva and then the Khadourie International School. Upon his arrival in New York in 1947, Rabbi Wiko was enrolled in Beth Hillel Torah Academy, attended a public High School and Baruch College, CCNY. He subsequently received an M.A. in Counseling and his PhD in Jewish Studies with a specialty in Mystical Philosophy.
Rabbi Wiko’s earliest desire was to become a rabbi but he put it off until he was able to find a seminary, the Rabbinical Seminary International that, although founded in traditional Judaic teachings, allowed for independent thought and expression of the belief that, despite the need for the maintenance of Traditional teachings, the needs of the individual person must also be acknowledged and taken into account. He received Smicha “Yoreh Yoreh” (Teacher & Counselor) from that Institution.
His functioning as a Human Relations Consultant, Spiritual Counselor and Psychotherapist has kept Rabbi Wiko actively employed and has given him numerous resources with which to serve humanity in general and his clients in particular. He is a Baal Shachris at a modern Orthodox Shul, a Chaplain and Deputy for the Sheriff's Department,a Kiwanian, an Officer of a Jewish Community Council and sits on various other Councils, Boards and Panels. He is a speaker on the lecture circuit on such topics as Mysticism, Spirituality, Religion as well as other Philosophical subjects.
Rabbi Wiko is available for all Jewish Life Cycle events and needs. He is adept at counseling Holocaust survivors as well as their children. He will officiate only at marriages where both partners are, unquestionably, Jewish and have a GET if divorced.
loki wrote:
> Is this just a question of confused definitions? There are a number of
> Jews who consider themselves followers of the teachings of Jesus.
> Which is fair enough as Jesus was jewish and so were all his early
> followers.
>
> It's just the Pauline inventions (the trinity, God made flesh stuff)
> that makes the two beliefs incompatible. So maybe FF is just a jewish
> follower of Jesus' teachings? That'd be reasonable, surely?
Alas not; I've said over and over "You do realise that you're a Semetic Christian, because you don't believe in the Jewish faith AND the Christian one; you've simply got family from the holy land is all". And Forest has repeatedly stamped his feet and said "No, I'm NOT just a semetic christian. I'm jewish and christian!"
So whilst it's entirely possible to be, say, an Israeli citizen and a Christian, it's not remotely possible to be a Jew and a Christian.
Really, I wish it were otherwise. But I've spent about a year on and off pinning him down and clarifying every definition there is. I understand what you're driving at, and I agree; that'd be entirely reasonable. But that wouldn't make Forest as special as he wants to be.
>
> Otherwise, if he does believe all the Christian dogma and still
> considers himself to be of the jewish faith, then he is clearly
> monumentally confused.
I don't even think it's that; I think what we have here is a rather confused little boy who has created a religion in his head which makes him the most special little man in the world.
Incidentally, is anyone else doing a mental countdown as to when Forest will post a response along the lines of "I'm not discussing this any further with you because you're a nasty man"? I give it 3 more posts, tops.
> Is this just a question of confused definitions? There are a number of
> Jews who consider themselves followers of the teachings of Jesus.
> Which is fair enough as Jesus was jewish and so were all his early
> followers.
>
> It's just the Pauline inventions (the trinity, God made flesh stuff)
> that makes the two beliefs incompatible. So maybe FF is just a jewish
> follower of Jesus' teachings? That'd be reasonable, surely?
Alas not; I've said over and over "You do realise that you're a Semetic Christian, because you don't believe in the Jewish faith AND the Christian one; you've simply got family from the holy land is all". And Forest has repeatedly stamped his feet and said "No, I'm NOT just a semetic christian. I'm jewish and christian!"
So whilst it's entirely possible to be, say, an Israeli citizen and a Christian, it's not remotely possible to be a Jew and a Christian.
Really, I wish it were otherwise. But I've spent about a year on and off pinning him down and clarifying every definition there is. I understand what you're driving at, and I agree; that'd be entirely reasonable. But that wouldn't make Forest as special as he wants to be.
>
> Otherwise, if he does believe all the Christian dogma and still
> considers himself to be of the jewish faith, then he is clearly
> monumentally confused.
I don't even think it's that; I think what we have here is a rather confused little boy who has created a religion in his head which makes him the most special little man in the world.
Incidentally, is anyone else doing a mental countdown as to when Forest will post a response along the lines of "I'm not discussing this any further with you because you're a nasty man"? I give it 3 more posts, tops.
Is this just a question of confused definitions? There are a number of Jews who consider themselves followers of the teachings of Jesus. Which is fair enough as Jesus was jewish and so were all his early followers.
It's just the Pauline inventions (the trinity, God made flesh stuff) that makes the two beliefs incompatible. So maybe FF is just a jewish follower of Jesus' teachings? That'd be reasonable, surely?
Otherwise, if he does believe all the Christian dogma and still considers himself to be of the jewish faith, then he is clearly monumentally confused.
It's just the Pauline inventions (the trinity, God made flesh stuff) that makes the two beliefs incompatible. So maybe FF is just a jewish follower of Jesus' teachings? That'd be reasonable, surely?
Otherwise, if he does believe all the Christian dogma and still considers himself to be of the jewish faith, then he is clearly monumentally confused.
Page: