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"Belief in God vs. Belief in Science"

University Classroom Setting...

"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ," The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
" Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? "Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't." [No answer.]
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
[No answer]
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, son."
"Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?
[No answer]
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All those terrible things - do they exist in this world? "
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them? "
[No answer]
The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!"The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"
[No answer]
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized.
"Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"
[No answer]
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause.
"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"
[No answer]
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you seen Him? "
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelled your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"
[No answer]
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"
[The student doesn't answer]
"Sit down, please."
The Christian sits...Defeated(?).
Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."
The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you if that's okay. Is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies, frowning. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes.
The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'.
We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 -- You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat.
We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.
Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"
"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't.
If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
The class is all ears.
"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains; "that for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure.
Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.
Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids you can buy, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is, now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses.
"Isn't evil the absence of good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.
The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing?
The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."
"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you believethat we have evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.
"Professor. All previous attempts to explain how the process works have failed. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"
"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.
"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's observable science!"
"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. What you call "science" too is a premise which is flawed..."
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar.
The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.
The Christian looks around the room.*Sir, the basic law of physics says matter can neither be created nor destroyed, and yet you in spite of that believe in "spontaneous generation" of the entire physical universe! Spontaneous generation of vermin was disproved centuries ago.
Talk about straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel! Sir, biogenesis is "observable science" as you say--life has only been observed to come from other life of like kind--and yet you apparently still believe that that is exactly what happened--in spite of science--that life somehow came from non-life.
Young man, the professor began tersely, I believe that science will eventually....
"That science will eventually prove that matter can be created, that life can come from non-life" interrupted the young Christian? Sir, that's not science--that's Faith! What you believe is the exact opposite of "observable science"!Your faith is in what you are calling "science", my faith is in God who created "science".
Make no mistake, Professor, we're both operating from faith."
There follows a long pause as the Professor stares the young Christian down without a word.
"Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelled the professor's mind?"
No one appears to have done so. The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol and science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind." The class is in chaos. The Christian sits... Because that is what a chair is for, and begins filling out a drop slip.

Perhaps if you didn't go off on tangents Forest Fan ("Oh, but God gave me his handbook!!!") then people would respond to your points, and not your idiocy.

Mumbai Duck wrote:
> That's when you know you've got him.

Looks like we got him good, it’s a shame - blind to religion, and not looking at any of the facts. That’s like shutting the curtain on the Sun, whilst telling yourself the sun does not exist - when clearly it does.

Ignore that.

Two thirds of my messages go ignored as it is.

DiscoDexy wrote:
> I must be in stealth mode today, i've been ignored too many times.


That's when you know you've got him - if he can't find something to disagree with, because your point is watertight, he goes off on a tanget.
For Forest-hunters it's not very cerimonious, but a victory nontheless.


Note he didn't respond to my earlier post, explaining evolution, but went off on a tangent. He accepts that he can't fault the reasoning, logic and unrefutable science prove the process of evolution to happen.

Personally, I like the odd challenge - to test the validity of your reasoning against someone going all-out to find any holes in it.

But to be honest, I wish I hadn't rattled his cage about the whole thing, I didn't really mean to, I was just picking up on the error in the original post.
It's good bait for him to suck people in with, see the response he's got already ?

But God has given us His handbook.

DiscoDexy wrote:
> If god did exist, he created a canvas, a blank word - science painted
> on this black canvas - thus we are here today, along with nasty
> creatures like Japanese hornets & killer bees - potential killers
> that god wouldn’t create - would he?
>
> Its like a new building is built in town; couple of weeks somebody
> writes on this building with spray paint - later on, more people add
> to this graffiti, before long the whole building is covered.
>
> Makes sense, doesn’t it?
>
> There are a million reasons why we could be here, but life’s too
> short to question.

I must be in stealth mode today, i've been ignored too many times.

Anialater; how did the blacks evolve this extra muscle in the leg then?

Forest Fan wrote:
> Again - wrong. Blacks entire bone structure is different to that of
> whites. They have obviously been designed differently to whites.

They weren't designed differently, they evolved differently because of their surroundings. Untill about 300 years ago, the black and whites didn't live togethor, they had different surroundings, which made them both evolve differently, thus why they are different.

Anialater wrote:
> True, but they have that for some thing they did different than the
> whites many years ago. They are also more athletic, because they were
> slaves for the early Americans which required more phsycal work, so
> over the years they became naturally more stronger.

Again - wrong. Blacks entire bone structure is different to that of whites. They have obviously been designed differently to whites.

Don't make me quote what i've just said. . .