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I may actually have already posted this, so apologies in advance if I have...
Well, I suppose it was inevitable really; after months of ranting in a sustained manner, I simply had to turn my attention to religion sooner or later. After all, anyone who has had the misfortune to be trapped in the same room as me whenever the subject has turned to religion and faith will know of my rather strong views on the matter (or at least they will do if they've ever managed to decipher my slurred and incoherent speech and not been put off by the stench of wine emanating from my festering gob...)
I confess that I've been looking for an excuse to talk about this for some time and recently I have been given an opportunity. 1 night a week for the last 3 weeks I have invited two young gentlemen into the flat where I live. They have stayed for about an hour and a half each time and when have gone, all three of us are left feeling tired and yet sated and satisfied. Yes, I'm talking about Mormons.
For anyone who doesn't know about the Mormons (or the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints to give them their full title), they are members of a church founded in America around about 1820 by a bloke called Joseph Smith. Their basic beliefs are that Joe was a prophet in the fine traditions of the Old Testament (no, he didn't go round causing plagues of locusts or smiting his enemies with holy fury; even if he had done, 19th Century America had more pressing issues such as wiping out the natives and stealing their land to notice any vaguely biblical disasters...). He also had possession of a set of gold plates. Whereas you or I may think "Hmmm...I could get a few quid for these", Joe said that the inscriptions on them were in fact books of the Bible that never actually made the final draft, and had been buried in America since then. These inscriptions formed the basis of the book of Mormon, which in turn is the basis of their religion. And that, aside from the fact that they're really good at tracing family trees so that they can baptise their ancestors (does this involve digging them up and baptising them? Surely a body is pretty much soluble after a couple of hundred years underground; would you let yourself get baptised in the same water as 3 dozen dead and dissolved relatives?), is pretty much all you need to know about the Mormons.
Like Jehovah's Witnesses, they also seem to feel the need to go door-to-door and preach the word of Moroni (the angel who enlightened Joe Smith). Unlike Jehovah's Witnesses, they are a fairly affable bunch with none of the hellfire and damnation (and, let's face it, total misery) of the Witnesses. I was very welcoming of them, which quite naturally scared the hell out of them as they are used to having doors slammed in their face and abuse thrown at them. It was actually nice to have them round as the JW have quite possibly marked my house with a big black cross since their last visit (the poor woman is quite possibly still having to attend three prayer meetings a day to overcome the horrible memory of "...that satanic man who told me that the founder of our great church was a con- man with convictions for fraud!". Which he was by the way...)
Anyway, I won't presume to bore you with the details of the debates that have ensued from their visits. Needless to say that I'm enjoying being educated about their religion and they are having to put up with being educated about my views on life, the universe, and everything. What I will presume to bore you with is something that has been playing on my mind since their last visit. The two gentlemen who've been coming to argue with me are both polite and tolerant young men. They have listened attentively to my arguments and been respectful of my views despite the fact that are in flagrant breach of the rules that govern their lives, and because of this I have shown them the same courtesy when listening to their arguments.
So how come religion is one of the largest bastions of intolerance and ignorance in the known world? What causes it to develop from 2 polite young men talking reasonably to someone who doesn't accept their point of view to an autocratic institution that breeds ignorance and fear of any beliefs that differ from it's own? I really don't understand how it can happen.
What further confuses me is that despite the fact that religions have been schisming, spasming, and splitting pretty much since they began, literally billions of people choose to place their faith in them. Essentially, people are handing over a portion of their lives to an intangible concept which, even if you accept it's existence, has representatives on earth who act in their own self interest and not that of their followers. Now maybe it's just me, but I don't get it.
Take the Catholic Church as an example (oh, in case you're a Christian of any sort, I'm not being biased against you. The Muslim faith also split into two distinct branches, the Sunni and the Shi'a. I'm not going to go into detail about them as A: I don't know much about the differences between the two, and B: I'm not stupid enough to make the same mistake that Salman Rushdie did...). The Catholic Church as it is now is the result of 2000 years of infighting, backbiting, self-aggrandising politicking, and general unpleasantness and intolerance. You disagree? Okay, well let's take a look at a few examples...
Firstly, despite what you may have been taught, the church was not the sole source of spiritual enlightenment and comfort until some German anti-Semite nailed a piece of paper to a door and started the first of the many Protestant faiths (which have also split and proliferated like horny mice in a grain store). The first major split (not counting the power struggle between Paul and Jesus’ brother James that took place after Jesus’ death. Oh, and the numerous minor battles between different small sects of Christians) occurred way back in 313AD. It was called Arianism, and it led to the mutilation, maiming and murder of hundreds of thousands of people as both sides attempted to have their point of view accepted as the one true way. And can you guess what it was about? Was it perhaps an argument of whether Christ existed? Or about the nature of the relationship between God and the Devil (and maybe even Bob)?
Nope. It was about the word "and".
I'm serious. A holy war was waged over one of the most common words in the language. Catholics believed that there was the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost and they were three separate and distinct entities who existed simultaneously. Arians said that there was Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (notice that there is one less "and"). God is the main man, he sent his Holy Spirit from heaven and inhabited a man who was the son. In other words, the three cannot exist at the same time.
Frankly, if I'd died over something as trivial as that I daresay I would have been somewhat annoyed...
And it doesn't stop there. In the ninth century the church split once more into Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholic (and yes, the churches of the East have themselves split repeatedly). And lest anyone think that these holy wars are a relic of history, I would invite you to consider the Protestant-Catholic split in Ireland, the Christian-Islamic conflicts that are scarring Nigeria, the Sudan, and various parts of Africa, or the Hindu-Moslem tension in India. I'm sure it's not a revelation when I say that the biggest cause of worldwide strife is conflicts between religions that supposedly preach peace and brotherhood.
When we take these various splits into account, there are something like 50 major religions and countless minor cults that all claim to preach the true word of God. The only thing they seem to hate more than the works of the Devil are religions whose views differ from their own by about 3 words in paragraph 8 of page 106. AND PEOPLE ACTUALLY TRUST AND BELIEVE THEM!!
Apologies again if what I'm saying causes offence, but doesn't anyone else think that it's about time we consigned these outmoded and outdated methods of thought control to the dustbin of history? I accept that we do need some sort of receptacle for our faith (I've often commented on how mankind seems to have a God-shaped hole in their head; we all seem to need a religion to fill it) but could we not perhaps spend some time pondering our own individual thoughts on the nature of the universe rather than relying on a set of religions that seek to keep us from thinking for ourselves and serve no purpose other than their own glorification? At least then any future wars over religion will actually be down to something people genuinely believe in rather than principles that have been imposed on them by a church that is no longer relevant.
Well, I suppose it was inevitable really; after months of ranting in a sustained manner, I simply had to turn my attention to religion sooner or later. After all, anyone who has had the misfortune to be trapped in the same room as me whenever the subject has turned to religion and faith will know of my rather strong views on the matter (or at least they will do if they've ever managed to decipher my slurred and incoherent speech and not been put off by the stench of wine emanating from my festering gob...)
I confess that I've been looking for an excuse to talk about this for some time and recently I have been given an opportunity. 1 night a week for the last 3 weeks I have invited two young gentlemen into the flat where I live. They have stayed for about an hour and a half each time and when have gone, all three of us are left feeling tired and yet sated and satisfied. Yes, I'm talking about Mormons.
For anyone who doesn't know about the Mormons (or the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints to give them their full title), they are members of a church founded in America around about 1820 by a bloke called Joseph Smith. Their basic beliefs are that Joe was a prophet in the fine traditions of the Old Testament (no, he didn't go round causing plagues of locusts or smiting his enemies with holy fury; even if he had done, 19th Century America had more pressing issues such as wiping out the natives and stealing their land to notice any vaguely biblical disasters...). He also had possession of a set of gold plates. Whereas you or I may think "Hmmm...I could get a few quid for these", Joe said that the inscriptions on them were in fact books of the Bible that never actually made the final draft, and had been buried in America since then. These inscriptions formed the basis of the book of Mormon, which in turn is the basis of their religion. And that, aside from the fact that they're really good at tracing family trees so that they can baptise their ancestors (does this involve digging them up and baptising them? Surely a body is pretty much soluble after a couple of hundred years underground; would you let yourself get baptised in the same water as 3 dozen dead and dissolved relatives?), is pretty much all you need to know about the Mormons.
Like Jehovah's Witnesses, they also seem to feel the need to go door-to-door and preach the word of Moroni (the angel who enlightened Joe Smith). Unlike Jehovah's Witnesses, they are a fairly affable bunch with none of the hellfire and damnation (and, let's face it, total misery) of the Witnesses. I was very welcoming of them, which quite naturally scared the hell out of them as they are used to having doors slammed in their face and abuse thrown at them. It was actually nice to have them round as the JW have quite possibly marked my house with a big black cross since their last visit (the poor woman is quite possibly still having to attend three prayer meetings a day to overcome the horrible memory of "...that satanic man who told me that the founder of our great church was a con- man with convictions for fraud!". Which he was by the way...)
Anyway, I won't presume to bore you with the details of the debates that have ensued from their visits. Needless to say that I'm enjoying being educated about their religion and they are having to put up with being educated about my views on life, the universe, and everything. What I will presume to bore you with is something that has been playing on my mind since their last visit. The two gentlemen who've been coming to argue with me are both polite and tolerant young men. They have listened attentively to my arguments and been respectful of my views despite the fact that are in flagrant breach of the rules that govern their lives, and because of this I have shown them the same courtesy when listening to their arguments.
So how come religion is one of the largest bastions of intolerance and ignorance in the known world? What causes it to develop from 2 polite young men talking reasonably to someone who doesn't accept their point of view to an autocratic institution that breeds ignorance and fear of any beliefs that differ from it's own? I really don't understand how it can happen.
What further confuses me is that despite the fact that religions have been schisming, spasming, and splitting pretty much since they began, literally billions of people choose to place their faith in them. Essentially, people are handing over a portion of their lives to an intangible concept which, even if you accept it's existence, has representatives on earth who act in their own self interest and not that of their followers. Now maybe it's just me, but I don't get it.
Take the Catholic Church as an example (oh, in case you're a Christian of any sort, I'm not being biased against you. The Muslim faith also split into two distinct branches, the Sunni and the Shi'a. I'm not going to go into detail about them as A: I don't know much about the differences between the two, and B: I'm not stupid enough to make the same mistake that Salman Rushdie did...). The Catholic Church as it is now is the result of 2000 years of infighting, backbiting, self-aggrandising politicking, and general unpleasantness and intolerance. You disagree? Okay, well let's take a look at a few examples...
Firstly, despite what you may have been taught, the church was not the sole source of spiritual enlightenment and comfort until some German anti-Semite nailed a piece of paper to a door and started the first of the many Protestant faiths (which have also split and proliferated like horny mice in a grain store). The first major split (not counting the power struggle between Paul and Jesus’ brother James that took place after Jesus’ death. Oh, and the numerous minor battles between different small sects of Christians) occurred way back in 313AD. It was called Arianism, and it led to the mutilation, maiming and murder of hundreds of thousands of people as both sides attempted to have their point of view accepted as the one true way. And can you guess what it was about? Was it perhaps an argument of whether Christ existed? Or about the nature of the relationship between God and the Devil (and maybe even Bob)?
Nope. It was about the word "and".
I'm serious. A holy war was waged over one of the most common words in the language. Catholics believed that there was the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost and they were three separate and distinct entities who existed simultaneously. Arians said that there was Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (notice that there is one less "and"). God is the main man, he sent his Holy Spirit from heaven and inhabited a man who was the son. In other words, the three cannot exist at the same time.
Frankly, if I'd died over something as trivial as that I daresay I would have been somewhat annoyed...
And it doesn't stop there. In the ninth century the church split once more into Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholic (and yes, the churches of the East have themselves split repeatedly). And lest anyone think that these holy wars are a relic of history, I would invite you to consider the Protestant-Catholic split in Ireland, the Christian-Islamic conflicts that are scarring Nigeria, the Sudan, and various parts of Africa, or the Hindu-Moslem tension in India. I'm sure it's not a revelation when I say that the biggest cause of worldwide strife is conflicts between religions that supposedly preach peace and brotherhood.
When we take these various splits into account, there are something like 50 major religions and countless minor cults that all claim to preach the true word of God. The only thing they seem to hate more than the works of the Devil are religions whose views differ from their own by about 3 words in paragraph 8 of page 106. AND PEOPLE ACTUALLY TRUST AND BELIEVE THEM!!
Apologies again if what I'm saying causes offence, but doesn't anyone else think that it's about time we consigned these outmoded and outdated methods of thought control to the dustbin of history? I accept that we do need some sort of receptacle for our faith (I've often commented on how mankind seems to have a God-shaped hole in their head; we all seem to need a religion to fill it) but could we not perhaps spend some time pondering our own individual thoughts on the nature of the universe rather than relying on a set of religions that seek to keep us from thinking for ourselves and serve no purpose other than their own glorification? At least then any future wars over religion will actually be down to something people genuinely believe in rather than principles that have been imposed on them by a church that is no longer relevant.
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When you are convinced you have found salvation I guess it's only the right thing to go door to door until you've told rest of the world.
I find most opinions in the origional post similiar to my own. At the end of the day Religion is an opinion. Regardless which book you read with it.
I find most opinions in the origional post similiar to my own. At the end of the day Religion is an opinion. Regardless which book you read with it.
Forgot to add. Paganism (Wicca) is the only religion to date that preaches to respect other peoples beliefs.
Back on topic, reading the new Scientist today I read an article where the US government has cut it's funding on third world birth control measure agencies. I think it mentioned Christian influence in the government to be a major part of this.
Meanwhile, the Catholic church is telling third world people that contraceptives don't work so don't use them.
So they're happy to cause the spreading of AIDS and over populating already crowded countries just because of their narrow minded interpretation of something Paul suggested.
And they wonder why they're losing credibility with people! :-S
Meanwhile, the Catholic church is telling third world people that contraceptives don't work so don't use them.
So they're happy to cause the spreading of AIDS and over populating already crowded countries just because of their narrow minded interpretation of something Paul suggested.
And they wonder why they're losing credibility with people! :-S
Notorious Biggles wrote:
> I'd like to know more about the founder of the JWs convictions for
> fraud, or at least a link or something if you have the time.
Yup; I've got a couple of articles concerning his fraudulent history, but I'll see if I can track down links for the same.
>
> However, they don't believe in hell. Whenever I have spoken to them
> they always point toward a paradise.
My understanding was that Heaven (1st class) was filled in the 70's. All one can hope for now according to JW's is a place in the second tier of heaven, or absolute oblivion. Hellfire was just a descriptive term, though perhaps I should have chosen a better one.
> I'd like to know more about the founder of the JWs convictions for
> fraud, or at least a link or something if you have the time.
Yup; I've got a couple of articles concerning his fraudulent history, but I'll see if I can track down links for the same.
>
> However, they don't believe in hell. Whenever I have spoken to them
> they always point toward a paradise.
My understanding was that Heaven (1st class) was filled in the 70's. All one can hope for now according to JW's is a place in the second tier of heaven, or absolute oblivion. Hellfire was just a descriptive term, though perhaps I should have chosen a better one.
That would be good thanks, I have heard some stuff, but in looking into it, it was just lies spread by JW haters.
What witnesses believe is that because there is a specific number specified in Revelation as regards those going to heaven, but that there was an unspecified number, "the great crowd" who would live on a paradise earth.
I prefer their explanation to most other churches, if there is a hell, I've had it!
What witnesses believe is that because there is a specific number specified in Revelation as regards those going to heaven, but that there was an unspecified number, "the great crowd" who would live on a paradise earth.
I prefer their explanation to most other churches, if there is a hell, I've had it!
I would just like to say, a well earned GAD there, some nice points were raised! O and if you didnt know, you won GAD 2. Congrats.
Hmm...I'm unable to find any links that give details of anything other than the failed perjury case involving that nice Mr Taze Russel at the moment. In lieu of that, here are some of the sites I used to research Jehovah's Witnesses when they came a calling to my house...
http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/
http://www.apologeticspress.org/ rr/rr1995/r&r9511b.htm
http://www.escapefromwatchtower.com/ theslave3.html
Hope they are of interest, and I'll carry on looking for more direct references to his fraud conviction. My apologies again.
And thanks for letting me know about the GAD Mr Pink. A most pleasing surprise!
http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/
http://www.apologeticspress.org/ rr/rr1995/r&r9511b.htm
http://www.escapefromwatchtower.com/ theslave3.html
Hope they are of interest, and I'll carry on looking for more direct references to his fraud conviction. My apologies again.
And thanks for letting me know about the GAD Mr Pink. A most pleasing surprise!
As promised, some more direct references to the fraud trials (though, in fairness, only one actual conviction; that of the Pennsylvania courts noted in the 3rd link)
http://www.watchman.org/jw/jwwheat.htm
http://www.ptm.org/uni/QandA/0045/ proveArmstrong.htm
http://home.att.net/~jackthompson/page191.htm
I was greatly interested to read the JW version of his Miracle Wheat fraud trial; Russell sued a newspaper for libel (the libel being that the newspaper said the wheat wasn't remotely miraculous). He lost. Somehow, the modern JW church has twisted that to say that "because Russell wasn't on trial, he is the victor here". Which, legally, is complete toss. Look at David Irving's recent failed libel action; no one was left in any doubt that he was a holocaust denier after he failed to sue someone for saying that was what he was.
Or Oscar Wilde's libel case; he lost the case, and not long afterward he was convicted of buggery.
Simply put, Russell lost the case for libel, ergo the court was effectively saying that the accusations against him made by the newspaper were true.
http://www.watchman.org/jw/jwwheat.htm
http://www.ptm.org/uni/QandA/0045/ proveArmstrong.htm
http://home.att.net/~jackthompson/page191.htm
I was greatly interested to read the JW version of his Miracle Wheat fraud trial; Russell sued a newspaper for libel (the libel being that the newspaper said the wheat wasn't remotely miraculous). He lost. Somehow, the modern JW church has twisted that to say that "because Russell wasn't on trial, he is the victor here". Which, legally, is complete toss. Look at David Irving's recent failed libel action; no one was left in any doubt that he was a holocaust denier after he failed to sue someone for saying that was what he was.
Or Oscar Wilde's libel case; he lost the case, and not long afterward he was convicted of buggery.
Simply put, Russell lost the case for libel, ergo the court was effectively saying that the accusations against him made by the newspaper were true.
> My understanding was that Heaven (1st class) was filled in the 70's.
> All one can hope for now according to JW's is a place in the second
> tier of heaven, or absolute oblivion. Hellfire was just a descriptive
> term, though perhaps I should have chosen a better one.
Eh! Not sure what ancient propaganda manual you picked that up from. Actually there is no second tier, or whatever you might call it. Most of those living have an earthly hope for a paradise earth. These ones would be looked after by the few ultra-faithful who made it to heaven.
Hope that's cleared things up. :)
BTW. We're not as miserable as you make out. Just put yourself in their shoes though. Using spare mornings to brave the weather and go knocking on the door of a total stranger, to explain something they are convinced will benefit you. Then getting blasted off the doorstep by an individual like yourself does not help the confidence either. Some places admittedly have rather serious witnesses, but for unpaid labour performing such an onerous task, you can't really complain.
You need to take a holiday where I live. We have a few total nutcases who ensure that there is never a dull moment. In fact we are not really all that different from you.
I am a Uni student in my fourth year, and engage in normal daily activities just like you. I post nonsense on here during the day in between lectures, play football on the weekend and go to the cinema or go out for a drink in the evenings. Then I go out once or twice on the weekend to spread the 'good news'. That doesn't make me miserable does it?
> All one can hope for now according to JW's is a place in the second
> tier of heaven, or absolute oblivion. Hellfire was just a descriptive
> term, though perhaps I should have chosen a better one.
Eh! Not sure what ancient propaganda manual you picked that up from. Actually there is no second tier, or whatever you might call it. Most of those living have an earthly hope for a paradise earth. These ones would be looked after by the few ultra-faithful who made it to heaven.
Hope that's cleared things up. :)
BTW. We're not as miserable as you make out. Just put yourself in their shoes though. Using spare mornings to brave the weather and go knocking on the door of a total stranger, to explain something they are convinced will benefit you. Then getting blasted off the doorstep by an individual like yourself does not help the confidence either. Some places admittedly have rather serious witnesses, but for unpaid labour performing such an onerous task, you can't really complain.
You need to take a holiday where I live. We have a few total nutcases who ensure that there is never a dull moment. In fact we are not really all that different from you.
I am a Uni student in my fourth year, and engage in normal daily activities just like you. I post nonsense on here during the day in between lectures, play football on the weekend and go to the cinema or go out for a drink in the evenings. Then I go out once or twice on the weekend to spread the 'good news'. That doesn't make me miserable does it?
Light wrote:
> And thanks for letting me know about the GAD Mr Pink. A most pleasing
> surprise!
No problemo!
> And thanks for letting me know about the GAD Mr Pink. A most pleasing
> surprise!
No problemo!
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