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Is the new book by Michael Moore, he of 'Bowling for Columbine' and 'Stupid White Men' fame.
For those of you who don't know about him, Moore is one of those rare beasts; an angry liberal. The Oscar winning documentary, Bowling for Columbine, seethed with barely contained rage at the deliberate use of fear by the US government and media in order to keep people in line. The international bestseller, Stupid White Men, railed at the reality of America today; that the entire country is run for the benefit of a very few people, and that those people are happy to break and abuse the law to continue doing so.
'Dude, Where's my Country' is a follow up to 'Stupid White Men'. It deals with much the same theme as it's predecessor: How America is being run, and the direction it is heading in under Dubya and the Republican party.
Moore makes a number of quite startling accusations against Dubya and his government. So startling in fact that I found myself thinking "Nah, this can't be true...he must be exaggerating to make his point". Happily, references to the sources he drew the information from are provided in the book, so if you're as sad as I am, you can check the references and validate what he's saying yourself.
You may wish you hadn't though; Moore paints a very unwelcome picture of an America with numerous terrifying parallels to 30's Germany (in particular, the abuse of Patriotism; if you don't support Dubya/the Fuhrer, you're unpatriotic and woe betide you then...), and of a world in general that has more in common with 1984 than the fairytale that America is supposed to represent.
It's not all doom and gloom however. We in the UK have an image of Americans as reactionary conservatives with no interest in civil rights. Moore devotes a whole chapter to dispelling this myth. The average American is a lot more liberal than the average European. Unfortunately, Mr Average America is also a lot more apathetic, and this goes some way to explaining the disproportionate influence wielded by the extreme right in the US.
If I had to make a criticism of the book, it would be the tone used. Moore has a habit of transferring his rage directly onto the page. As such, some might be turned off by the angry rhetoric (and, occasionally, the snide sniping that one tends to associate with conservatives like Ann Coulter) that peppers the book.
But that would be to miss the point; one should concentrate on WHAT Moore says, and not the way in which he says it. Though the anger is palpable, Moore is also able to laugh at himself, as well as poking fun at his targets. This makes him a much easier read than, for example, the humourless displeasure that Dubya incurs in most other prominent liberals.
All in all, I would recommend this book to anyone with any interest at all in politics and international events, regardless of their political slant. It's accessible and well written. Liberals will find themself nodding in agreement, Conservatives will doubtless not even bother to read it. But they should, as it will give any reader a lot to think about.
For those of you who don't know about him, Moore is one of those rare beasts; an angry liberal. The Oscar winning documentary, Bowling for Columbine, seethed with barely contained rage at the deliberate use of fear by the US government and media in order to keep people in line. The international bestseller, Stupid White Men, railed at the reality of America today; that the entire country is run for the benefit of a very few people, and that those people are happy to break and abuse the law to continue doing so.
'Dude, Where's my Country' is a follow up to 'Stupid White Men'. It deals with much the same theme as it's predecessor: How America is being run, and the direction it is heading in under Dubya and the Republican party.
Moore makes a number of quite startling accusations against Dubya and his government. So startling in fact that I found myself thinking "Nah, this can't be true...he must be exaggerating to make his point". Happily, references to the sources he drew the information from are provided in the book, so if you're as sad as I am, you can check the references and validate what he's saying yourself.
You may wish you hadn't though; Moore paints a very unwelcome picture of an America with numerous terrifying parallels to 30's Germany (in particular, the abuse of Patriotism; if you don't support Dubya/the Fuhrer, you're unpatriotic and woe betide you then...), and of a world in general that has more in common with 1984 than the fairytale that America is supposed to represent.
It's not all doom and gloom however. We in the UK have an image of Americans as reactionary conservatives with no interest in civil rights. Moore devotes a whole chapter to dispelling this myth. The average American is a lot more liberal than the average European. Unfortunately, Mr Average America is also a lot more apathetic, and this goes some way to explaining the disproportionate influence wielded by the extreme right in the US.
If I had to make a criticism of the book, it would be the tone used. Moore has a habit of transferring his rage directly onto the page. As such, some might be turned off by the angry rhetoric (and, occasionally, the snide sniping that one tends to associate with conservatives like Ann Coulter) that peppers the book.
But that would be to miss the point; one should concentrate on WHAT Moore says, and not the way in which he says it. Though the anger is palpable, Moore is also able to laugh at himself, as well as poking fun at his targets. This makes him a much easier read than, for example, the humourless displeasure that Dubya incurs in most other prominent liberals.
All in all, I would recommend this book to anyone with any interest at all in politics and international events, regardless of their political slant. It's accessible and well written. Liberals will find themself nodding in agreement, Conservatives will doubtless not even bother to read it. But they should, as it will give any reader a lot to think about.
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HálloHowArtThou wrote:
> I'm meeting Michael Moore tomorrow to get my copy of 'Dude, where's my
> country' signed.
>
> Any questions for him?
Where?
> I'm meeting Michael Moore tomorrow to get my copy of 'Dude, where's my
> country' signed.
>
> Any questions for him?
Where?
Blank wrote:
> What it boils down to is this:
>
> You have never read or seen any Michael Moore.
> Therefore your opinions/claims on the subject are invalid.
>
> It really is as simple as that.
And hopefully, with Belldandy's insolent and petty arguing finally totally discredited, that should be the end of that.
> What it boils down to is this:
>
> You have never read or seen any Michael Moore.
> Therefore your opinions/claims on the subject are invalid.
>
> It really is as simple as that.
And hopefully, with Belldandy's insolent and petty arguing finally totally discredited, that should be the end of that.
Belldandy wrote:
> Take for example Goatboy's own comments about Tom Clancy novels? What
> have you, or Blank, or Light, ever read of his ?
I haven't read any, which is why I've never once said I have. Or argued about the content of his books. Or looked up websites that are anti-Clancey so that I don't have to read them myself and pick out flaws.
What it boils down to is this:
You have never read or seen any Michael Moore.
Therefore your opinions/claims on the subject are invalid.
It really is as simple as that.
> Take for example Goatboy's own comments about Tom Clancy novels? What
> have you, or Blank, or Light, ever read of his ?
I haven't read any, which is why I've never once said I have. Or argued about the content of his books. Or looked up websites that are anti-Clancey so that I don't have to read them myself and pick out flaws.
What it boils down to is this:
You have never read or seen any Michael Moore.
Therefore your opinions/claims on the subject are invalid.
It really is as simple as that.
Belldandy wrote:
> Come on, surprise me.
Not difficult...
I've not once said they're books for conservative military nuts. I've said YOU are a conservative military nut, but I've admitted to enjoying Clancy novels. That said, I've lost track of them; the last one I read was Rainbow Six, and the last Ryan book I read was Executive Orders. But I thoroughly enjoyed every one I read, even if he gets a little too carried away with his descriptions of hardware. And his politics when it comes to the 'bad guys' in his books are rather simplistic. But then again, he's a novelist, not a diplomat.
So, I am in a position to criticise Clancy books. Having read them and all. You on the other hand are a rather cretinous individual who is trying to justify criticising someone he has no knowledge of whatsoever. So, with it being Monday and all, I believe I shall point at you and laugh until you wail and cry.
> Come on, surprise me.
Not difficult...
I've not once said they're books for conservative military nuts. I've said YOU are a conservative military nut, but I've admitted to enjoying Clancy novels. That said, I've lost track of them; the last one I read was Rainbow Six, and the last Ryan book I read was Executive Orders. But I thoroughly enjoyed every one I read, even if he gets a little too carried away with his descriptions of hardware. And his politics when it comes to the 'bad guys' in his books are rather simplistic. But then again, he's a novelist, not a diplomat.
So, I am in a position to criticise Clancy books. Having read them and all. You on the other hand are a rather cretinous individual who is trying to justify criticising someone he has no knowledge of whatsoever. So, with it being Monday and all, I believe I shall point at you and laugh until you wail and cry.
I'm meeting Michael Moore tomorrow to get my copy of 'Dude, where's my country' signed.
Any questions for him?
Any questions for him?
Belldandy wrote:
>Sounds like you didn't read Executive Orders much at all
> because a Japanese airliner pilot, angered over the death of his
> family during US Military action against Japan in Debt Of Honour,
> hijacks and crashes an airliner into the Capital Building during the
> State Of The Union - killing the President, Congress and such.
Ok, so why did I not read it much at all?
I said a plane crashed and killed the President etc. Which it did - your semantics aside. Plane wipes out government, Jack Ryan is persuaded/duty bound to take over and seek the answers etc. Beyond that I couldn't tell you. Why?
I stopped reading after a couple of days and thought "I just don't care".
However, have you ever at all seen me argue with anybody about the content of Tom Clancy books I have never read, even given a cursory glance?
No.
And why is that? Because I would have no basis with which to form an argument. Sure, I can go to websites and cut'n'paste what other people think, but that is merely paying lip-service to other people's opinions.
I will not argue with you about the content of Tom Clancy books.
Why?
Because I haven't read any apart from that one, and only then it was the merest read,whereas you read them. Therefore you know more about Tom Clancy than I.
Just as I know more about Michael Moore/Noam Chomsky books, because they appeal to me.
I have no problem whatsoever admitting I know next to nothing about Clancy novels.
> b)not all of his books are fiction and he has a whole series which
> were done with the full co-operation of the US Military/Navy/Air
> Force, DOD, Special Ops and so forth.
Ok.
So that makes him a mouthpiece for the US Government, you could argue that his books are little more than propaganda designed to portray American Forces in a positive, heroic light.
The heroic governmental agent battling terrorism worldwide and righting wrongs etc.
The difference between Clancy and Moore (apart from fiction and fact, which you clumsily attempted to segueway into), is that you agree with Clancy's viewpoints and morals and disagree with Moore's.
It's just perspective and taste.
But it doesn't detract from the fact, however much you wish to avoid mentioning and seem intent on sidetracking this into "Goatboy didn't 100% accurately convey the plot of a book only read part of!!!!!", that you have spent over a week arguing the content of Michael Moore books - and have admitted that you have never, ever read any of them.
Which is the perfect example of why people continually take you to task for ill-thought out didactic responses that you force yourself to defend, even when it become apparently clear that you've boobed.
Rush Limbaugh/I was wrong/Kapos/Michael Moore/Chomsky ("Whinging leftist" is still my favourite idiocy of yours)
So leave Clancy to one side, the issue is this:
You have never read Michael Moore's books.
You are arguing the content of books you have never read.
You are using websites that support your views to argue points of books that you have never read.
You cannot put personal opinion of "Dude, where's my country?", because you are 100% unfamiliar with his writings.
And movies.
And tv programmes.
He is simply somebody who's views on his country do not gel with that of an Englishman with a fetish for all things military and American.
He is a patriot.
More so than you, because he is an American.
You are English.
He is trying to affect change and highlight problems as he sees them within his own country, by campaigning/writing/making films/going on speaking tours.
You are sneering (without knowing what you are sneering at because you've never read any of the books), whilst doing nothing at all to change a country that you have no part of, outside of draping their flag in your bedroom and saluting before you sleep each night.
> At least he makes it clear where the fact ends and the fiction
> begins. Unlike...
And all I need to say is:
You have never read anything written by Michael Moore.
You are using websites deliberately anti-Moore because it fits with your views.
That is not arguing, that is not discussing.
That is, as usual, Belldandy's guide to being made to look stupid by strangers over the internet.
And if you *really* didn't care (before you do your "yawn" defence and leg it from this topic for 2 weeks), then you wouldn't keep returning and trying to clamber to moral highground.
But you do.
And keep getting your pants yanked down and spanked like the semi-literate apologist you are.
And I take it you didn't watch the John Simpson programme tonight.
The one where his convoy was hit in the worst recorded incident of "friendly fire" by America in that insipid little landgrab fiasco of this year.
Because hey, he probably made it up and was a commie too.
>Sounds like you didn't read Executive Orders much at all
> because a Japanese airliner pilot, angered over the death of his
> family during US Military action against Japan in Debt Of Honour,
> hijacks and crashes an airliner into the Capital Building during the
> State Of The Union - killing the President, Congress and such.
Ok, so why did I not read it much at all?
I said a plane crashed and killed the President etc. Which it did - your semantics aside. Plane wipes out government, Jack Ryan is persuaded/duty bound to take over and seek the answers etc. Beyond that I couldn't tell you. Why?
I stopped reading after a couple of days and thought "I just don't care".
However, have you ever at all seen me argue with anybody about the content of Tom Clancy books I have never read, even given a cursory glance?
No.
And why is that? Because I would have no basis with which to form an argument. Sure, I can go to websites and cut'n'paste what other people think, but that is merely paying lip-service to other people's opinions.
I will not argue with you about the content of Tom Clancy books.
Why?
Because I haven't read any apart from that one, and only then it was the merest read,whereas you read them. Therefore you know more about Tom Clancy than I.
Just as I know more about Michael Moore/Noam Chomsky books, because they appeal to me.
I have no problem whatsoever admitting I know next to nothing about Clancy novels.
> b)not all of his books are fiction and he has a whole series which
> were done with the full co-operation of the US Military/Navy/Air
> Force, DOD, Special Ops and so forth.
Ok.
So that makes him a mouthpiece for the US Government, you could argue that his books are little more than propaganda designed to portray American Forces in a positive, heroic light.
The heroic governmental agent battling terrorism worldwide and righting wrongs etc.
The difference between Clancy and Moore (apart from fiction and fact, which you clumsily attempted to segueway into), is that you agree with Clancy's viewpoints and morals and disagree with Moore's.
It's just perspective and taste.
But it doesn't detract from the fact, however much you wish to avoid mentioning and seem intent on sidetracking this into "Goatboy didn't 100% accurately convey the plot of a book only read part of!!!!!", that you have spent over a week arguing the content of Michael Moore books - and have admitted that you have never, ever read any of them.
Which is the perfect example of why people continually take you to task for ill-thought out didactic responses that you force yourself to defend, even when it become apparently clear that you've boobed.
Rush Limbaugh/I was wrong/Kapos/Michael Moore/Chomsky ("Whinging leftist" is still my favourite idiocy of yours)
So leave Clancy to one side, the issue is this:
You have never read Michael Moore's books.
You are arguing the content of books you have never read.
You are using websites that support your views to argue points of books that you have never read.
You cannot put personal opinion of "Dude, where's my country?", because you are 100% unfamiliar with his writings.
And movies.
And tv programmes.
He is simply somebody who's views on his country do not gel with that of an Englishman with a fetish for all things military and American.
He is a patriot.
More so than you, because he is an American.
You are English.
He is trying to affect change and highlight problems as he sees them within his own country, by campaigning/writing/making films/going on speaking tours.
You are sneering (without knowing what you are sneering at because you've never read any of the books), whilst doing nothing at all to change a country that you have no part of, outside of draping their flag in your bedroom and saluting before you sleep each night.
> At least he makes it clear where the fact ends and the fiction
> begins. Unlike...
And all I need to say is:
You have never read anything written by Michael Moore.
You are using websites deliberately anti-Moore because it fits with your views.
That is not arguing, that is not discussing.
That is, as usual, Belldandy's guide to being made to look stupid by strangers over the internet.
And if you *really* didn't care (before you do your "yawn" defence and leg it from this topic for 2 weeks), then you wouldn't keep returning and trying to clamber to moral highground.
But you do.
And keep getting your pants yanked down and spanked like the semi-literate apologist you are.
And I take it you didn't watch the John Simpson programme tonight.
The one where his convoy was hit in the worst recorded incident of "friendly fire" by America in that insipid little landgrab fiasco of this year.
Because hey, he probably made it up and was a commie too.
Merriment eh ? I had no idea the situation was so bad. And if you had read the Tom Clancy books you would know that:
a)many have real actual facts in them or are based around real events. Sounds like you didn't read Executive Orders much at all because a Japanese airliner pilot, angered over the death of his family during US Military action against Japan in Debt Of Honour, hijacks and crashes an airliner into the Capital Building during the State Of The Union - killing the President, Congress and such.
b)not all of his books are fiction and he has a whole series which were done with the full co-operation of the US Military/Navy/Air Force, DOD, Special Ops and so forth.
At least he makes it clear where the fact ends and the fiction begins. Unlike...
a)many have real actual facts in them or are based around real events. Sounds like you didn't read Executive Orders much at all because a Japanese airliner pilot, angered over the death of his family during US Military action against Japan in Debt Of Honour, hijacks and crashes an airliner into the Capital Building during the State Of The Union - killing the President, Congress and such.
b)not all of his books are fiction and he has a whole series which were done with the full co-operation of the US Military/Navy/Air Force, DOD, Special Ops and so forth.
At least he makes it clear where the fact ends and the fiction begins. Unlike...
Belldandy wrote:
> I'm giving my opinion of him from what I've seen of him. Is everyone
> here honeslty saying they have never ever formed an opinion of
> something without watching the film/reading the book/hearing the
> music/playing the game ?
No, not at all.
But I've never argued for over a week about the specifics of something I've never ever read. You're challenging people to discuss and prove content of something you have no experience of whatsoever. It's stupid, how can you possibly reasonably argue, when you have zero basis for your facts/opinion? Websites can tell you what they thought, but it's devoid of personal comment - because you don't know what Moore talks about having never read it.
It's not the fact you don't like Moore, nobody says you have to.
It's the way in which you summarily dismiss the facts and points raised in books you have never read that is causing disbelief and merriment.
> Take for example Goatboy's own comments about Tom Clancy novels? What
> have you, or Blank, or Light, ever read of his ?
I read about half of one about a plane crash killing the president and a load of congress/the senate and just thought "Meh, not my cup of tea", I don't have enough interest in that arena to merit the time it was taking to read.
I've never said Clancy was a crap writer or his books are rubbish, what I have continually said (and will continue to do) is that you frequently use passages and info from his books as if he were some official government advisor to big scary things.
He's an author, and his opinions on anything are equally as important as, say, Agatha Christie or Helen Fielding.
Yes, Michael Moore is an author. But is also a political activist/campaigner/entertainer who uses his skills to highlight issues in the way that he feels he is best suited to. He's just an ordinary bloke on the street, he doesn't have polished government rhetoric or the ability to dodge questions and not actually say anything.
He gets annoyed and angry because he cares about his country - despite what you may think, and you've never read him anyway so you couldn't say - and sees it being ruined by businessmen in office.
I don't have to surprise you or try and convince you that you need to read Michael Moore.
However, if you are going to get into arguments about the content of his books and the issues raised - you have to read them.
Otherwise it's pointless.
That's my point.
You cannot discuss/argue your position when you are completely unfamiliar with the subject matter.
> I'm giving my opinion of him from what I've seen of him. Is everyone
> here honeslty saying they have never ever formed an opinion of
> something without watching the film/reading the book/hearing the
> music/playing the game ?
No, not at all.
But I've never argued for over a week about the specifics of something I've never ever read. You're challenging people to discuss and prove content of something you have no experience of whatsoever. It's stupid, how can you possibly reasonably argue, when you have zero basis for your facts/opinion? Websites can tell you what they thought, but it's devoid of personal comment - because you don't know what Moore talks about having never read it.
It's not the fact you don't like Moore, nobody says you have to.
It's the way in which you summarily dismiss the facts and points raised in books you have never read that is causing disbelief and merriment.
> Take for example Goatboy's own comments about Tom Clancy novels? What
> have you, or Blank, or Light, ever read of his ?
I read about half of one about a plane crash killing the president and a load of congress/the senate and just thought "Meh, not my cup of tea", I don't have enough interest in that arena to merit the time it was taking to read.
I've never said Clancy was a crap writer or his books are rubbish, what I have continually said (and will continue to do) is that you frequently use passages and info from his books as if he were some official government advisor to big scary things.
He's an author, and his opinions on anything are equally as important as, say, Agatha Christie or Helen Fielding.
Yes, Michael Moore is an author. But is also a political activist/campaigner/entertainer who uses his skills to highlight issues in the way that he feels he is best suited to. He's just an ordinary bloke on the street, he doesn't have polished government rhetoric or the ability to dodge questions and not actually say anything.
He gets annoyed and angry because he cares about his country - despite what you may think, and you've never read him anyway so you couldn't say - and sees it being ruined by businessmen in office.
I don't have to surprise you or try and convince you that you need to read Michael Moore.
However, if you are going to get into arguments about the content of his books and the issues raised - you have to read them.
Otherwise it's pointless.
That's my point.
You cannot discuss/argue your position when you are completely unfamiliar with the subject matter.
Reading it now. Very interesting, not as good as SWM as far though.
I'm giving my opinion of him from what I've seen of him. Is everyone here honeslty saying they have never ever formed an opinion of something without watching the film/reading the book/hearing the music/playing the game ?
Take for example Goatboy's own comments about Tom Clancy novels? What have you, or Blank, or Light, ever read of his ? The film's don't count because they're largely vague takes on the books. Several times Light has even essentially said they're books for conservative military nuts, which they aren't.
Come on, surprise me.
Take for example Goatboy's own comments about Tom Clancy novels? What have you, or Blank, or Light, ever read of his ? The film's don't count because they're largely vague takes on the books. Several times Light has even essentially said they're books for conservative military nuts, which they aren't.
Come on, surprise me.
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