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The Look
Whatever you want to say about Sony's 2001-esque black monolith, it sure looks better than Microsoft's over-the-top cheese machine. While the PS2 is sleek and component styled, the Xbox screams, "Look at me, I'm fun! By the way, did you notice I'm an X?" so obnoxiously that Gamecube developers are probably making fun of it. It's possible that designing a console that resembles its name looked good on paper, but the final product comes off amateurish and clumsy.
Control
If there's one place nobody's going to be singing Microsoft's praises, it's controller design. A cross between a Sidewinder and the Genesis Six-Button Pad, there's no style or originality to be found anywhere in the Xbox's frightening boomerang of death. Like the console design, the controller sports a huge green Xbox logo, just to make sure that gamers don't forget for even an instant that they've sold their soul to the big M. Place that against the stylized and incredibly comfortable Dual Shock 2 and there's not much of a comparison.
Power
Although the Xbox has a ton of raw power, it's not going to get used. Everything on the Xbox is going to be strained and distilled through a version of Windows 2000, of all things. Prepare for watered-down power and a legion of DirectX titles. Why innovate when you don't have to? While the PS2 has much less raw power -- and let's not dodge the question, it clearly does -- all of it is readily available, and the ability to write directly to the metal means more creativity and new approaches to design being discovered all the time.
The Hardware
Already there are questions about overheating with the Xbox, a big box crammed full of neat goodies, but that's about all you can knock it for. The hard drive and built-in Ethernet adapter are well and good but... wait, they're just good. There's really no way to not be happy about broadband and LAN support right out of the box. The nVidia 25 chip Microsoft's planning to use, however, is not even done and won't be in production until right before the release of the system. Perhaps Microsoft should call Sony and ask how fun a launch with chip shortages can be.
Expandability
While Microsoft has kindly decided to pack a hard drive and Ethernet adapter in with the Xbox, it's not leaving much room for anything else. One output in the box will be used for RCA, S-video, VGA and anything else you might need. There's no standard USB, optical outs or anything else you'd expect from a next-gen console. What that means is that every keyboard, S-video connector or anything else you want to buy is going to have to be licensed and will cost a pretty penny. On the same note, the DVD capabilities are locked away when you buy the console, and if you actually want to use the DVD player you paid for you will be forced to buy a licensed remote control -- no controller support here. Prepare to get screwed.
The Games
Metal Gear Solid X, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2X, Crash Bandicoot, Dragon's Lair 3D -- the list of ports and "me too" games goes on and on. With no solidly established franchises of its own and a slew of hastily thrown together ports, Xbox may be missing its killer app this fall when it launches. What's there, however, is gorgeous, and once the system gets underway it's going to be anyone's guess as to whether the PS2 or Xbox will take the lead. Hopefully, it will, in the end, come down to a battle of original titles and creative gameplay development.
The Price
While Microsoft seemed to be for some time holding the line that the Xbox would be cheaper or at least competitively priced with the PS2, it seems less sure now. When Daily Radar asked J. Allard, the Xbox team leader, whether Xbox would cost less than the PS2, he responded simply, "Does the PS2 come with a massive hard drive and broadband adapter?" That sounds like the beginnings of an excuse for the final price to us.
Conclusion
So, the Xbox is here. It's ugly and boxy but has a ton of power. Because the developers don't actually have the final chipsets, however, games are being shown running at one-fifth of the console's supposed final power. There's no expandability, no DVD playback out of the box and the clock speed has already been lowered since the system was originally announced. What else will change for the worse before the actual launch date? Will Microsoft try to use marketing and money to move a system that is steadily scaled back from its original promising spec sheet? These are many questions, and it is these unknowns that will decide whether Xbox becomes PS2's biggest competitor or just another TurboGraphix-style footnote in gaming history.
Whatever you want to say about Sony's 2001-esque black monolith, it sure looks better than Microsoft's over-the-top cheese machine. While the PS2 is sleek and component styled, the Xbox screams, "Look at me, I'm fun! By the way, did you notice I'm an X?" so obnoxiously that Gamecube developers are probably making fun of it. It's possible that designing a console that resembles its name looked good on paper, but the final product comes off amateurish and clumsy.
Control
If there's one place nobody's going to be singing Microsoft's praises, it's controller design. A cross between a Sidewinder and the Genesis Six-Button Pad, there's no style or originality to be found anywhere in the Xbox's frightening boomerang of death. Like the console design, the controller sports a huge green Xbox logo, just to make sure that gamers don't forget for even an instant that they've sold their soul to the big M. Place that against the stylized and incredibly comfortable Dual Shock 2 and there's not much of a comparison.
Power
Although the Xbox has a ton of raw power, it's not going to get used. Everything on the Xbox is going to be strained and distilled through a version of Windows 2000, of all things. Prepare for watered-down power and a legion of DirectX titles. Why innovate when you don't have to? While the PS2 has much less raw power -- and let's not dodge the question, it clearly does -- all of it is readily available, and the ability to write directly to the metal means more creativity and new approaches to design being discovered all the time.
The Hardware
Already there are questions about overheating with the Xbox, a big box crammed full of neat goodies, but that's about all you can knock it for. The hard drive and built-in Ethernet adapter are well and good but... wait, they're just good. There's really no way to not be happy about broadband and LAN support right out of the box. The nVidia 25 chip Microsoft's planning to use, however, is not even done and won't be in production until right before the release of the system. Perhaps Microsoft should call Sony and ask how fun a launch with chip shortages can be.
Expandability
While Microsoft has kindly decided to pack a hard drive and Ethernet adapter in with the Xbox, it's not leaving much room for anything else. One output in the box will be used for RCA, S-video, VGA and anything else you might need. There's no standard USB, optical outs or anything else you'd expect from a next-gen console. What that means is that every keyboard, S-video connector or anything else you want to buy is going to have to be licensed and will cost a pretty penny. On the same note, the DVD capabilities are locked away when you buy the console, and if you actually want to use the DVD player you paid for you will be forced to buy a licensed remote control -- no controller support here. Prepare to get screwed.
The Games
Metal Gear Solid X, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2X, Crash Bandicoot, Dragon's Lair 3D -- the list of ports and "me too" games goes on and on. With no solidly established franchises of its own and a slew of hastily thrown together ports, Xbox may be missing its killer app this fall when it launches. What's there, however, is gorgeous, and once the system gets underway it's going to be anyone's guess as to whether the PS2 or Xbox will take the lead. Hopefully, it will, in the end, come down to a battle of original titles and creative gameplay development.
The Price
While Microsoft seemed to be for some time holding the line that the Xbox would be cheaper or at least competitively priced with the PS2, it seems less sure now. When Daily Radar asked J. Allard, the Xbox team leader, whether Xbox would cost less than the PS2, he responded simply, "Does the PS2 come with a massive hard drive and broadband adapter?" That sounds like the beginnings of an excuse for the final price to us.
Conclusion
So, the Xbox is here. It's ugly and boxy but has a ton of power. Because the developers don't actually have the final chipsets, however, games are being shown running at one-fifth of the console's supposed final power. There's no expandability, no DVD playback out of the box and the clock speed has already been lowered since the system was originally announced. What else will change for the worse before the actual launch date? Will Microsoft try to use marketing and money to move a system that is steadily scaled back from its original promising spec sheet? These are many questions, and it is these unknowns that will decide whether Xbox becomes PS2's biggest competitor or just another TurboGraphix-style footnote in gaming history.
Page:
> Ah! But what about the exclusive deals? Does it not bug
> you that Rare can only release games for Nintendo?
In principle, yes - but never having played a Rare game, no, I wouldn't say it bugged me. I obviously don't know what I'm missing! :-)
As with Sega, i think Nintendo would help themselves no end - especially financially - by releasing games on other formats. We all know that the real money is in the software licencing and not the consoles themselves, so I think they're 'cutting off their nose to spite their face'.
> I'm not sure what's happened, but the
> quality of posts has risen no end recently, there's even a few
> sensible threads in the GameCube forum, notably 'Dinosaur Planet'.
> It's quite shocking to find that people can disagree with you
> without resulting to stupid arguements!
It certainly has improved. There's still the odd anonymous cretin posting 'Console Wars' threads though! ;-p
> you that Rare can only release games for Nintendo?
In principle, yes - but never having played a Rare game, no, I wouldn't say it bugged me. I obviously don't know what I'm missing! :-)
As with Sega, i think Nintendo would help themselves no end - especially financially - by releasing games on other formats. We all know that the real money is in the software licencing and not the consoles themselves, so I think they're 'cutting off their nose to spite their face'.
> I'm not sure what's happened, but the
> quality of posts has risen no end recently, there's even a few
> sensible threads in the GameCube forum, notably 'Dinosaur Planet'.
> It's quite shocking to find that people can disagree with you
> without resulting to stupid arguements!
It certainly has improved. There's still the odd anonymous cretin posting 'Console Wars' threads though! ;-p
Armatige Shanks wrote:
>Any standard 102 key keyboard that is..
Reading this forced me to count the number of keys on my keyboard. 104, if you're interested.
Wookiee Monster wrote:
>That *any* company would restrict supplies over and beyond the Christmas
>period, deliberately disappointing millions of potential buyers of such a highly
>sought-after item, and - as you say - losing no small amount of face in the
>process - is something which, IMHO, only fools and nay-sayers would truly
>have believed.
The fact that supplies didn't 'miraculously' show up a few weeks before Xmas leads me to believe that it was a genuine shortage. Sort after goods are often held pack at Xmas time until quite late, to help build the 'must-have' quality of the product but I don't think that this was the case here.
>As I've said previously, I don't have any objections or reservations about
> non-exclusive developer deals.
Ah! But what about the exclusive deals? Does it not bug you that Rare can only release games for Nintendo?
>Finally, can I just say that this is the most enjoyable discussion I've had on here for a long time!
I'm not sure what's happened, but the quality of posts has risen no end recently, there's even a few sensible threads in the GameCube forum, notably 'Dinosaur Planet'. It's quite shocking to find that people can disagree with you without resulting to stupid arguements!
>Any standard 102 key keyboard that is..
Reading this forced me to count the number of keys on my keyboard. 104, if you're interested.
Wookiee Monster wrote:
>That *any* company would restrict supplies over and beyond the Christmas
>period, deliberately disappointing millions of potential buyers of such a highly
>sought-after item, and - as you say - losing no small amount of face in the
>process - is something which, IMHO, only fools and nay-sayers would truly
>have believed.
The fact that supplies didn't 'miraculously' show up a few weeks before Xmas leads me to believe that it was a genuine shortage. Sort after goods are often held pack at Xmas time until quite late, to help build the 'must-have' quality of the product but I don't think that this was the case here.
>As I've said previously, I don't have any objections or reservations about
> non-exclusive developer deals.
Ah! But what about the exclusive deals? Does it not bug you that Rare can only release games for Nintendo?
>Finally, can I just say that this is the most enjoyable discussion I've had on here for a long time!
I'm not sure what's happened, but the quality of posts has risen no end recently, there's even a few sensible threads in the GameCube forum, notably 'Dinosaur Planet'. It's quite shocking to find that people can disagree with you without resulting to stupid arguements!
>Even though... do you know any PS1 owner that doesnt have a Dual
> Shock controller?
Well, now that you mention it... yes! A friend of mind has never been able to get on with analogue controls. He doesn't have a PS2 yet, but has stuck with the original controller. Whenever he plays me at anything, he always switches analogue mode off. Strange lad...
> It just seems that the prices of HD's and Keyborads wont be
> anywhere near as cheap as for a new controller?
Depends how much they want to push the product I suppose. I certainly don't expect it to be 'dirt cheap', but there was a rumour some time ago of there being a large-capacity HD for £90 - which would be a bargain. With the price of HD's dropping all the time, it could be a possibility by the end of the year, when the unit is due.
> 12.99 for a controller Vs. 100+ for a hard drive?
> Besides, they've done it more as a tax dodge that as a reason to
> force extra purcheses...
So Sony aren't the only ones trying to dogde taxes then... :-)
> Different context though huh... way
> back when chaos was more in control than business...
I'm not sure it was so drastically different... but the industry has certainly grown up. But then, with gaming being driven more into the mainstream, it's had to grow up. (And we largely have Sony to thank for that, I think.)
Finally, can I just say that this is the most enjoyable discussion I've had on here for a long time!
> Shock controller?
Well, now that you mention it... yes! A friend of mind has never been able to get on with analogue controls. He doesn't have a PS2 yet, but has stuck with the original controller. Whenever he plays me at anything, he always switches analogue mode off. Strange lad...
> It just seems that the prices of HD's and Keyborads wont be
> anywhere near as cheap as for a new controller?
Depends how much they want to push the product I suppose. I certainly don't expect it to be 'dirt cheap', but there was a rumour some time ago of there being a large-capacity HD for £90 - which would be a bargain. With the price of HD's dropping all the time, it could be a possibility by the end of the year, when the unit is due.
> 12.99 for a controller Vs. 100+ for a hard drive?
> Besides, they've done it more as a tax dodge that as a reason to
> force extra purcheses...
So Sony aren't the only ones trying to dogde taxes then... :-)
> Different context though huh... way
> back when chaos was more in control than business...
I'm not sure it was so drastically different... but the industry has certainly grown up. But then, with gaming being driven more into the mainstream, it's had to grow up. (And we largely have Sony to thank for that, I think.)
Finally, can I just say that this is the most enjoyable discussion I've had on here for a long time!
Wòókiee Møn§†€R wrote:
The DC controller has an analogue
> stick.
Has it?... oops :)
A logical
> progression. Someone has to have the idea for the combination,
> granted - but it's not as if a new control system had been
> invented.
Pretty much though... and analoge stick controlled by your thumb, and not gripped by the hand ala Joysticks...
A
> Dual Shock pad was originally a 'luxury' item, though, and was never
> an essential purchase on the PS1,
Even though... do you know any PS1 owner that doesnt have a Dual Shock controller?
Also, bear in mind that these 'tactics' are not exclusive to
> Sony. All console so far, in their basic packs, have required the
No... where do you think I got the idea from? :) ... It just seems that the prices of HD's and Keyborads wont be anywhere near as cheap as for a new controller?
All the companies
> have always done it, and when Microsoft arrive, they will be no
> different - as indicated by the 'optional' DVD controller.
12.99 for a controller Vs. 100+ for a hard drive? Besides, they've done it more as a tax dodge that as a reason to force extra purcheses...
Like any "Windows"
> keyboard. Makes things minimally easier, but ultimately a matter of
> personal choice.
Well.. not just... Those Sky Keyborad... the newer Mac Keyboards... in fact pretty much all modern keyboards (and anything Sony can come up with)...
Microsoft
> pioneered non-exclusive deals with software publishers? I'm pretty
> sure I remember many independent, cross-platform, non-exclusive
> software publishers in the days when me and my friends used to play
> on our C64's and Spectrum's... when Microsoft was just a twinkle in
> the eyes of the young Mr. Gates.
Different context though huh... way back when chaos was more in control than business...
The DC controller has an analogue
> stick.
Has it?... oops :)
A logical
> progression. Someone has to have the idea for the combination,
> granted - but it's not as if a new control system had been
> invented.
Pretty much though... and analoge stick controlled by your thumb, and not gripped by the hand ala Joysticks...
A
> Dual Shock pad was originally a 'luxury' item, though, and was never
> an essential purchase on the PS1,
Even though... do you know any PS1 owner that doesnt have a Dual Shock controller?
Also, bear in mind that these 'tactics' are not exclusive to
> Sony. All console so far, in their basic packs, have required the
No... where do you think I got the idea from? :) ... It just seems that the prices of HD's and Keyborads wont be anywhere near as cheap as for a new controller?
All the companies
> have always done it, and when Microsoft arrive, they will be no
> different - as indicated by the 'optional' DVD controller.
12.99 for a controller Vs. 100+ for a hard drive? Besides, they've done it more as a tax dodge that as a reason to force extra purcheses...
Like any "Windows"
> keyboard. Makes things minimally easier, but ultimately a matter of
> personal choice.
Well.. not just... Those Sky Keyborad... the newer Mac Keyboards... in fact pretty much all modern keyboards (and anything Sony can come up with)...
Microsoft
> pioneered non-exclusive deals with software publishers? I'm pretty
> sure I remember many independent, cross-platform, non-exclusive
> software publishers in the days when me and my friends used to play
> on our C64's and Spectrum's... when Microsoft was just a twinkle in
> the eyes of the young Mr. Gates.
Different context though huh... way back when chaos was more in control than business...
> Sega didnt...
The DC controller has an analogue stick.
An
> analogue joystick on a joypad is a logical
> progression, and
> *someone* had to make the connection first;
> in this case, it
> happened to be Nintendo. A combination of
> two existing technologies
> is a novel idea, but not a
> groundbreaking invention!
> Which is it... a natural progresssion or a novel idea?
A logical progression. Someone has to have the idea for the combination, granted - but it's not as if a new control system had been invented.
> Aye... but lets be straight here... they would be remarkably foolish to try and
> sell the machine for more?
I agree with you - but I've always questioned the spec/potential price of the X-box. If they can do it, we only stand to benefit.
> the same way they used to package the PS1 with the original
> controllers, knowing full well that the user would HAVE to pay
> eaxtra to buy the Dual Shock pads...
A Dual Shock pad was originally a 'luxury' item, though, and was never an essential purchase on the PS1, as the majority of titles had no facility - or even any need - for analogue control. PS2 software is a different matter though, and hence PS2's come with a DS2 pad.
Also, bear in mind that these 'tactics' are not exclusive to Sony. All console so far, in their basic packs, have required the customer to buy 'extras' at some point. You always have to buy a 2nd controller; you have to buy a memory card; Nintendo owners have to buy memory expansions to play some games, and - non-essential though it may be - the Rumble Pack for N64 is an optional extra, while it's an integral part of the Dual Shock.
All the companies have always done it, and when Microsoft arrive, they will be no different - as indicated by the 'optional' DVD controller.
> For basic work maybe... but I suspect the
> the official keyboard will have a few added extras that make using
> things a little easier in many situations...
Like any "Windows" keyboard. Makes things minimally easier, but ultimately a matter of personal choice.
> Even though it was Microsoft that pioneered this kind of development arrangement?
Microsoft pioneered non-exclusive deals with software publishers? I'm pretty sure I remember many independent, cross-platform, non-exclusive software publishers in the days when me and my friends used to play on our C64's and Spectrum's... when Microsoft was just a twinkle in the eyes of the young Mr. Gates.
The DC controller has an analogue stick.
An
> analogue joystick on a joypad is a logical
> progression, and
> *someone* had to make the connection first;
> in this case, it
> happened to be Nintendo. A combination of
> two existing technologies
> is a novel idea, but not a
> groundbreaking invention!
> Which is it... a natural progresssion or a novel idea?
A logical progression. Someone has to have the idea for the combination, granted - but it's not as if a new control system had been invented.
> Aye... but lets be straight here... they would be remarkably foolish to try and
> sell the machine for more?
I agree with you - but I've always questioned the spec/potential price of the X-box. If they can do it, we only stand to benefit.
> the same way they used to package the PS1 with the original
> controllers, knowing full well that the user would HAVE to pay
> eaxtra to buy the Dual Shock pads...
A Dual Shock pad was originally a 'luxury' item, though, and was never an essential purchase on the PS1, as the majority of titles had no facility - or even any need - for analogue control. PS2 software is a different matter though, and hence PS2's come with a DS2 pad.
Also, bear in mind that these 'tactics' are not exclusive to Sony. All console so far, in their basic packs, have required the customer to buy 'extras' at some point. You always have to buy a 2nd controller; you have to buy a memory card; Nintendo owners have to buy memory expansions to play some games, and - non-essential though it may be - the Rumble Pack for N64 is an optional extra, while it's an integral part of the Dual Shock.
All the companies have always done it, and when Microsoft arrive, they will be no different - as indicated by the 'optional' DVD controller.
> For basic work maybe... but I suspect the
> the official keyboard will have a few added extras that make using
> things a little easier in many situations...
Like any "Windows" keyboard. Makes things minimally easier, but ultimately a matter of personal choice.
> Even though it was Microsoft that pioneered this kind of development arrangement?
Microsoft pioneered non-exclusive deals with software publishers? I'm pretty sure I remember many independent, cross-platform, non-exclusive software publishers in the days when me and my friends used to play on our C64's and Spectrum's... when Microsoft was just a twinkle in the eyes of the young Mr. Gates.
Wòókiee Møn§†€R wrote:
So are
> we to assume that, had Sega or Sony come up with the
> "idea" first, Nintendo wouldn't have copied it?
Sega didnt...
An
> analogue joystick on a joypad is a logical progression, and
> *someone* had to make the connection first; in this case, it
> happened to be Nintendo. A combination of two existing technologies
> is a novel idea, but not a groundbreaking invention!
Which is it... a natural progresssion or a novel idea?
"Should" being the
> operative word. Let's wait and see before we compare; if it turns
> out to be true, then all the better for the paying public.
Aye... but lets be straight here... they would be remarkably foolish to try and sell the machine for more?
Why?
> Sony may release the initial unit, but why wouldn't 3rd-party
> companies. You don't have to buy Sony joypads, memory cards or
> cables, do you?
Trye... but there becoming wiser now... also the field has become much more 'their' territory so they have to create the rules... the same way they used to package the PS1 with the original controllers, knowing full well that the user would HAVE to pay eaxtra to buy the Dual Shock pads...
There are already games which benefit from the addition
> of a mouse and/or keyboard, but you don't *have* to buy them in
> order to play. The HD may or may not be required for some games,
> but is primarily designed to work in conjuction with Sony's online
> plans. Actually there is talk of the HD/modem unit being sold
> complete *with* such an 'essential' game, because Sony realise the
> problem of the 'catch 22' situation - online add-ons won't sell
> without suitably desirable software, and the software rarely sells
> without the necessary hardware.
Again I'm going to have to go with the Dual Shocks... they dont have to give away Dual Shock controllers... but after a few game releases, they became pretty much essentials... they can do the same with more expensive gardware too...
As long as it serves the purpose, does it
> really matter?
For basic work maybe... but I suspect the the official keyboard will have a few added extras that make using things a little easier in many situations...
As I've said previously, I don't
> have any objections or reservations about non-exclusive developer
Even though it was Microsoft that pioneered this kind of development arrangement?
So are
> we to assume that, had Sega or Sony come up with the
> "idea" first, Nintendo wouldn't have copied it?
Sega didnt...
An
> analogue joystick on a joypad is a logical progression, and
> *someone* had to make the connection first; in this case, it
> happened to be Nintendo. A combination of two existing technologies
> is a novel idea, but not a groundbreaking invention!
Which is it... a natural progresssion or a novel idea?
"Should" being the
> operative word. Let's wait and see before we compare; if it turns
> out to be true, then all the better for the paying public.
Aye... but lets be straight here... they would be remarkably foolish to try and sell the machine for more?
Why?
> Sony may release the initial unit, but why wouldn't 3rd-party
> companies. You don't have to buy Sony joypads, memory cards or
> cables, do you?
Trye... but there becoming wiser now... also the field has become much more 'their' territory so they have to create the rules... the same way they used to package the PS1 with the original controllers, knowing full well that the user would HAVE to pay eaxtra to buy the Dual Shock pads...
There are already games which benefit from the addition
> of a mouse and/or keyboard, but you don't *have* to buy them in
> order to play. The HD may or may not be required for some games,
> but is primarily designed to work in conjuction with Sony's online
> plans. Actually there is talk of the HD/modem unit being sold
> complete *with* such an 'essential' game, because Sony realise the
> problem of the 'catch 22' situation - online add-ons won't sell
> without suitably desirable software, and the software rarely sells
> without the necessary hardware.
Again I'm going to have to go with the Dual Shocks... they dont have to give away Dual Shock controllers... but after a few game releases, they became pretty much essentials... they can do the same with more expensive gardware too...
As long as it serves the purpose, does it
> really matter?
For basic work maybe... but I suspect the the official keyboard will have a few added extras that make using things a little easier in many situations...
As I've said previously, I don't
> have any objections or reservations about non-exclusive developer
Even though it was Microsoft that pioneered this kind of development arrangement?
> The original controllers had no analog sticks, and when
> the Dual Shock was originally released, most magazines, gaming pros,
> stated their stolen N64 idea... At the time I seem to remember Sony
> almost admitted to nicking the idea?
So are we to assume that, had Sega or Sony come up with the "idea" first, Nintendo wouldn't have copied it?
An analogue joystick on a joypad is a logical progression, and *someone* had to make the connection first; in this case, it happened to be Nintendo. A combination of two existing technologies is a novel idea, but not a groundbreaking invention!
> The X-Box should be
> being released at the same price as the PS2, including the
> extras...
"Should" being the operative word. Let's wait and see before we compare; if it turns out to be true, then all the better for the paying public.
> I suspect that if Sony release a Hard Drive, Keyboard,
> etc... that you will have to buy Sony manufactured hardware...
Why? Sony may release the initial unit, but why wouldn't 3rd-party companies. You don't have to buy Sony joypads, memory cards or cables, do you? We already know that USB peripherals work, and so far there are no signs of any Sony keyboards and mice. My personal choice, though, is always to buy official peripherals, and for good reason - so far, no 3rd-party product I've tried has been a patch on the quality of Sony's own.
> Equally I suspect that more than one 'essential' game purchase will
> require the use of the Hard Drive or mouse/keyboard to be able to
> play effectivly, essentially forcing the user to purchase the
> hardware.
There are already games which benefit from the addition of a mouse and/or keyboard, but you don't *have* to buy them in order to play. The HD may or may not be required for some games, but is primarily designed to work in conjuction with Sony's online plans. Actually there is talk of the HD/modem unit being sold complete *with* such an 'essential' game, because Sony realise the problem of the 'catch 22' situation - online add-ons won't sell without suitably desirable software, and the software rarely sells without the necessary hardware.
> Any standard 102 key keyboard that is...
As long as it serves the purpose, does it really matter?
> I was thinking mainly of the developers included (X-Box is
> around 500 developers I think?) X-Box has pretty much all the PS2
> developers + the other Western best developers (e.g.
> LionHead)
As I've said previously, I don't have any objections or reservations about non-exclusive developer deals. Developers have the right - and in my view, the obligation - to support as many platforms as possible. I've frequently stated that I think EA were wrong not to support the Dreamcast, and that belief holds true for any developer on any platform.
That said, the vast majority of well-known and respected developers have already pledged their support to PS2, and others who previously never touched consoles have also signed up. So I have no concerns, despite the ridiculous amount of anti-Sony scaremongering that seems to be going around.
> I originally thought Sony had done this as a marketing ploy... but
> they really have lost a LOT of cash, and, more importantly loss of
> face, which will cost them even more to re-earn
Such a cynic! :-) Sony had nothing to gain and everything to lose by holding back PS2 units. The hype for PS2 (generated, I have to say, mostly by an over-zealous gaming press, and not Sony themselves) had already peaked.
Sony want - maybe even need - to build a large user-base as quickly as they can; not only because of the other consoles due to appear in a year or so, but also to retrieve some of the massive investments they made in development of the PS2.
That *any* company would restrict supplies over and beyond the Christmas period, deliberately disappointing millions of potential buyers of such a highly sought-after item, and - as you say - losing no small amount of face in the process - is something which, IMHO, only fools and nay-sayers would truly have believed. (I mean no disrespect to you personally.)
Sony do have a lot of work to do, but it is my belief that they will succeed. Whether they will rule the next five years in the same way as the last five years remains to be seen. The one thing I am sure of, though, is that they will certainly standing proud and competing well.
> the Dual Shock was originally released, most magazines, gaming pros,
> stated their stolen N64 idea... At the time I seem to remember Sony
> almost admitted to nicking the idea?
So are we to assume that, had Sega or Sony come up with the "idea" first, Nintendo wouldn't have copied it?
An analogue joystick on a joypad is a logical progression, and *someone* had to make the connection first; in this case, it happened to be Nintendo. A combination of two existing technologies is a novel idea, but not a groundbreaking invention!
> The X-Box should be
> being released at the same price as the PS2, including the
> extras...
"Should" being the operative word. Let's wait and see before we compare; if it turns out to be true, then all the better for the paying public.
> I suspect that if Sony release a Hard Drive, Keyboard,
> etc... that you will have to buy Sony manufactured hardware...
Why? Sony may release the initial unit, but why wouldn't 3rd-party companies. You don't have to buy Sony joypads, memory cards or cables, do you? We already know that USB peripherals work, and so far there are no signs of any Sony keyboards and mice. My personal choice, though, is always to buy official peripherals, and for good reason - so far, no 3rd-party product I've tried has been a patch on the quality of Sony's own.
> Equally I suspect that more than one 'essential' game purchase will
> require the use of the Hard Drive or mouse/keyboard to be able to
> play effectivly, essentially forcing the user to purchase the
> hardware.
There are already games which benefit from the addition of a mouse and/or keyboard, but you don't *have* to buy them in order to play. The HD may or may not be required for some games, but is primarily designed to work in conjuction with Sony's online plans. Actually there is talk of the HD/modem unit being sold complete *with* such an 'essential' game, because Sony realise the problem of the 'catch 22' situation - online add-ons won't sell without suitably desirable software, and the software rarely sells without the necessary hardware.
> Any standard 102 key keyboard that is...
As long as it serves the purpose, does it really matter?
> I was thinking mainly of the developers included (X-Box is
> around 500 developers I think?) X-Box has pretty much all the PS2
> developers + the other Western best developers (e.g.
> LionHead)
As I've said previously, I don't have any objections or reservations about non-exclusive developer deals. Developers have the right - and in my view, the obligation - to support as many platforms as possible. I've frequently stated that I think EA were wrong not to support the Dreamcast, and that belief holds true for any developer on any platform.
That said, the vast majority of well-known and respected developers have already pledged their support to PS2, and others who previously never touched consoles have also signed up. So I have no concerns, despite the ridiculous amount of anti-Sony scaremongering that seems to be going around.
> I originally thought Sony had done this as a marketing ploy... but
> they really have lost a LOT of cash, and, more importantly loss of
> face, which will cost them even more to re-earn
Such a cynic! :-) Sony had nothing to gain and everything to lose by holding back PS2 units. The hype for PS2 (generated, I have to say, mostly by an over-zealous gaming press, and not Sony themselves) had already peaked.
Sony want - maybe even need - to build a large user-base as quickly as they can; not only because of the other consoles due to appear in a year or so, but also to retrieve some of the massive investments they made in development of the PS2.
That *any* company would restrict supplies over and beyond the Christmas period, deliberately disappointing millions of potential buyers of such a highly sought-after item, and - as you say - losing no small amount of face in the process - is something which, IMHO, only fools and nay-sayers would truly have believed. (I mean no disrespect to you personally.)
Sony do have a lot of work to do, but it is my belief that they will succeed. Whether they will rule the next five years in the same way as the last five years remains to be seen. The one thing I am sure of, though, is that they will certainly standing proud and competing well.
meka_dragon wrote:
That's how seriously I take any topic comparing
> an available console with games, to a console that won't be released
> here for another year.
Which is why you'll never make your millions on financial speculative market my good man! ;)
That's how seriously I take any topic comparing
> an available console with games, to a console that won't be released
> here for another year.
Which is why you'll never make your millions on financial speculative market my good man! ;)
Wòókiee Møn§†€R wrote:
>Analogue sticks were not stolen from the N64, they have
> been around for many, many years; I had a game system in >the 80's
> which had analogue sticks and 2 fire buttons.
But the analog sticks on the keypad (which were unique to the N64, was activly stolen by Sony...
The original controllers had no analog sticks, and when the Dual Shock was originally released, most magazines, gaming pros, stated their stolen N64 idea... At the time I seem to remember Sony almost admitted to nicking the idea?
Which is either a bonus or hindrance, depending
> on your viewpoint. Do you pay extra for somethin you don't really
> want or need, or have to buy an add-on, making the the initial unit
> cheaper. No company will ever please everyone in this
> area.
The X-Box should be being released at the same price as the PS2, including the extras...
I suspect that if Sony release a Hard Drive, Keyboard, etc... that you will have to buy Sony manufactured hardware... Equally I suspect that more than one 'essential' game purchase will require the use of the Hard Drive or mouse/keyboard to be able to play effectivly, essentially forcing the user to purchase the hardware.
Nonsense. For a start, you can plug any
> USB keyboard into the PS2 to use the YABASIC that comes with the
> machine; and any USB mouse/keyboard will work with Unreal
> Tournament.
Any standard 102 key keyboard that is...
Last counts I read (and I admit that I don't keep
> constantly updated on this issue) was around 150 developers for
> X-Box, with over 300 for PS2. That was some time ago, and has
> probably changed. However, I personally don't see this as an
> issue.
I was thinking mainly of the developers included (X-Box is around 500 developers I think?) X-Box has pretty much all the PS2 developers + the other Western best developers (e.g. LionHead)
Production problems
> will no doubt account for much of that. After the initial glut of
> launch sales, production problems meant that none were available for
> a few months; obviously this will be reflected as falling sales -
> you can't sell what you don't have. With Sony increasing
> production, I expect these figures to change fairly soon.
I originally thought Sony had done this as a marketing ploy... but they really have lost a LOT of cash, and, more importantly loss of face, which will cost them even more to re-earn
>Analogue sticks were not stolen from the N64, they have
> been around for many, many years; I had a game system in >the 80's
> which had analogue sticks and 2 fire buttons.
But the analog sticks on the keypad (which were unique to the N64, was activly stolen by Sony...
The original controllers had no analog sticks, and when the Dual Shock was originally released, most magazines, gaming pros, stated their stolen N64 idea... At the time I seem to remember Sony almost admitted to nicking the idea?
Which is either a bonus or hindrance, depending
> on your viewpoint. Do you pay extra for somethin you don't really
> want or need, or have to buy an add-on, making the the initial unit
> cheaper. No company will ever please everyone in this
> area.
The X-Box should be being released at the same price as the PS2, including the extras...
I suspect that if Sony release a Hard Drive, Keyboard, etc... that you will have to buy Sony manufactured hardware... Equally I suspect that more than one 'essential' game purchase will require the use of the Hard Drive or mouse/keyboard to be able to play effectivly, essentially forcing the user to purchase the hardware.
Nonsense. For a start, you can plug any
> USB keyboard into the PS2 to use the YABASIC that comes with the
> machine; and any USB mouse/keyboard will work with Unreal
> Tournament.
Any standard 102 key keyboard that is...
Last counts I read (and I admit that I don't keep
> constantly updated on this issue) was around 150 developers for
> X-Box, with over 300 for PS2. That was some time ago, and has
> probably changed. However, I personally don't see this as an
> issue.
I was thinking mainly of the developers included (X-Box is around 500 developers I think?) X-Box has pretty much all the PS2 developers + the other Western best developers (e.g. LionHead)
Production problems
> will no doubt account for much of that. After the initial glut of
> launch sales, production problems meant that none were available for
> a few months; obviously this will be reflected as falling sales -
> you can't sell what you don't have. With Sony increasing
> production, I expect these figures to change fairly soon.
I originally thought Sony had done this as a marketing ploy... but they really have lost a LOT of cash, and, more importantly loss of face, which will cost them even more to re-earn
davey(was_dave) wrote:
> Hey, Mr Shanks...some very good points there...but....
> I thought
> that the X-box USB ports were the controller ports, and hence a
> different shape to normal USB?
> maybe I've been misled.....
Shouldnt matter if they are... USB equipment it intended to be daisy chained (which is why most PC's come with only 2 USB ports...
for instance I'm using a USB keyboard, which although only plugging into one USB port at the back of the PC, has, itself has 2 USB ports, which I use for my mouse and gamepad...
so as long as the controllers hhave USB ports attached, there should be little or no problems ...
> Hey, Mr Shanks...some very good points there...but....
> I thought
> that the X-box USB ports were the controller ports, and hence a
> different shape to normal USB?
> maybe I've been misled.....
Shouldnt matter if they are... USB equipment it intended to be daisy chained (which is why most PC's come with only 2 USB ports...
for instance I'm using a USB keyboard, which although only plugging into one USB port at the back of the PC, has, itself has 2 USB ports, which I use for my mouse and gamepad...
so as long as the controllers hhave USB ports attached, there should be little or no problems ...
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