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Everyone's heard about it on the news, not seen much discussion on here about it though, so thought I'd raise the subject.
For those who don't know much about it ... Jack Straw caused controversy amongst some Muslim groups by suggesting that women should refrain from wearing the full veil or 'Niqab', as it creates a 'barrier' between cultures. He has not tried to ban them or anything similar, he has just sought to open a discussion about how it affects our British culture, and if there are steps that might be taken to integrate our citizens from all backgrounds.
Personally, and not just because I'm from a non-Muslim background, I agree with his comments. I do think a lot of people find these veils intimidating, that the individuals wearing them are less approachable, and that it segregates in some way our multi-cultural society. We as humans naturally use body language and facial expressions to converse and understand one another ... it is natural to be wary of those who cover up. I wonder how people would react to me if I went shopping wearing a balaclava ... no doubt they would ask me to remove it ...
Upon reading up I discovered that it is not compulsory to wear these veils, it is more out of choice than anything, though I do not have a deep understanding of the Muslim faith, so I am willing to concede if this not entirely accurate.
Some more info : [URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5411320.stm[/URL]
Some groups have shown their disapproval of his comments though, calling them 'anti-muslim' and prejudiced. What strikes me is this country is supposed to be a democratic one, enjoying freedom of speech ... Jack Straw is not condemning them for wearing these veils, or even seeking to bring in laws about wearing them, he only wishes to open a discussion, open to all parties and cultures.
Don't know if we have any Muslim members on here, but I'd be interested to hear your comments regardless of faith or culture ...
For those who don't know much about it ... Jack Straw caused controversy amongst some Muslim groups by suggesting that women should refrain from wearing the full veil or 'Niqab', as it creates a 'barrier' between cultures. He has not tried to ban them or anything similar, he has just sought to open a discussion about how it affects our British culture, and if there are steps that might be taken to integrate our citizens from all backgrounds.
Personally, and not just because I'm from a non-Muslim background, I agree with his comments. I do think a lot of people find these veils intimidating, that the individuals wearing them are less approachable, and that it segregates in some way our multi-cultural society. We as humans naturally use body language and facial expressions to converse and understand one another ... it is natural to be wary of those who cover up. I wonder how people would react to me if I went shopping wearing a balaclava ... no doubt they would ask me to remove it ...
Upon reading up I discovered that it is not compulsory to wear these veils, it is more out of choice than anything, though I do not have a deep understanding of the Muslim faith, so I am willing to concede if this not entirely accurate.
Some more info : [URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5411320.stm[/URL]
Some groups have shown their disapproval of his comments though, calling them 'anti-muslim' and prejudiced. What strikes me is this country is supposed to be a democratic one, enjoying freedom of speech ... Jack Straw is not condemning them for wearing these veils, or even seeking to bring in laws about wearing them, he only wishes to open a discussion, open to all parties and cultures.
Don't know if we have any Muslim members on here, but I'd be interested to hear your comments regardless of faith or culture ...
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I dare you to read some of the comments on the Daily Mail site, or even on BBC's have Your Say forum :) All of a sudden it seems that veils are the worst thing to exist. Funny that, I could have sworn they have been around for decades.. why didn't we kick up a fuss then?
biglime wrote:
> As a
> politician he should have taken this into consideration
> beforehand much like the Pope and his speech. Sometimes its not
> the source, but the reaction that causes all the trouble.
I'd agree as a politician he should claim a certain amount of responsibility, but he can't be responsible for how the media have interpretted his comments, which unfortunately, as you said, have been blown totally out of proportions. I wish the media would think before they published, than maybe such things as the assault on the Muslim woman in Liverpool wouldn't have happened, but alas if there's a good story in it...
> As a
> politician he should have taken this into consideration
> beforehand much like the Pope and his speech. Sometimes its not
> the source, but the reaction that causes all the trouble.
I'd agree as a politician he should claim a certain amount of responsibility, but he can't be responsible for how the media have interpretted his comments, which unfortunately, as you said, have been blown totally out of proportions. I wish the media would think before they published, than maybe such things as the assault on the Muslim woman in Liverpool wouldn't have happened, but alas if there's a good story in it...
Geffdof wrote:
Its not an attack on the religion, its simply a
> suggestion of how to intergrate better into our society.
And as a result it has blown up out of proportions due to the responses, both pro and against concerning the issue. As a politician he should have taken this into consideration beforehand much like the Pope and his speech. Sometimes its not the source, but the reaction that causes all the trouble.
As for the issue itself, why not just leave them alone? It's been that way for the past, well hoever long they have stayed here. Noone kicked up such a huge fuss until Straw brought it up 'innocently'
Its not an attack on the religion, its simply a
> suggestion of how to intergrate better into our society.
And as a result it has blown up out of proportions due to the responses, both pro and against concerning the issue. As a politician he should have taken this into consideration beforehand much like the Pope and his speech. Sometimes its not the source, but the reaction that causes all the trouble.
As for the issue itself, why not just leave them alone? It's been that way for the past, well hoever long they have stayed here. Noone kicked up such a huge fuss until Straw brought it up 'innocently'
Silent Thunder wrote:
> And I know you said that in the Koran it doesn't actually
> explicitly say that all women of faith must wear a veil, but
> some interpret it that it does.
That's fair enough, but I think this illustrates the problem I have with religion ... some people interpret religion as a way of being educated, living in harmony with those around them and a path to enlightenment. Others interpret it differently and see it as an excuse to kill themselves and innocent people.
Slightly off subject I know, sometimes I just can't help having a pop at religion though ... seems to me it causes too much bloody hassles in a supposedly 'civilised' world.
> And I know you said that in the Koran it doesn't actually
> explicitly say that all women of faith must wear a veil, but
> some interpret it that it does.
That's fair enough, but I think this illustrates the problem I have with religion ... some people interpret religion as a way of being educated, living in harmony with those around them and a path to enlightenment. Others interpret it differently and see it as an excuse to kill themselves and innocent people.
Slightly off subject I know, sometimes I just can't help having a pop at religion though ... seems to me it causes too much bloody hassles in a supposedly 'civilised' world.
Borat §agdiyev wrote:
> I wonder how people would react to me if I went shopping wearing
> a balaclava ... no doubt they would ask me to remove it ...
I think that's a fair enough point, it's like the hoodie argument in relation to Jack Straw's comments. A fair few people have said if people have to remove their hoodies in public places then shouldn't Muslim women remove their veils? I have to admit at first I thought this was a pretty good argument. But then I thought, why do people wear hoodies? In quite a few cases it’s because they want to be seen as ‘cool’, part of a gang and in some occasions they even want to appear intimidating and anti-social. Then I thought, why do Muslim women wear veils? It's not because they want to be 'cool'. I don't think they aim to be intimidating and the only gang they are members of is not a gang at all, but a religion. Whilst we must remember that it is as much the right of a person to wear a hoodie as it is for a Muslim woman to wear a veil, the woman is wearing the veil because it is part of something they believe in – their religion. I’m afraid wearing a hoodie is not part of any religion I recognise.
And I know you said that in the Koran it doesn't actually explicitly say that all women of faith must wear a veil, but some interpret it that it does. It's purely their choice, a choice they can change at any time, but we musn't force change on them (not that Jack Straw was saying this) like that bloke in Liverpool who tore a veil from a woman's face. I think we should just respect their decision whatever it is, even if it does make it hard to interpret their entire body language.
> I wonder how people would react to me if I went shopping wearing
> a balaclava ... no doubt they would ask me to remove it ...
I think that's a fair enough point, it's like the hoodie argument in relation to Jack Straw's comments. A fair few people have said if people have to remove their hoodies in public places then shouldn't Muslim women remove their veils? I have to admit at first I thought this was a pretty good argument. But then I thought, why do people wear hoodies? In quite a few cases it’s because they want to be seen as ‘cool’, part of a gang and in some occasions they even want to appear intimidating and anti-social. Then I thought, why do Muslim women wear veils? It's not because they want to be 'cool'. I don't think they aim to be intimidating and the only gang they are members of is not a gang at all, but a religion. Whilst we must remember that it is as much the right of a person to wear a hoodie as it is for a Muslim woman to wear a veil, the woman is wearing the veil because it is part of something they believe in – their religion. I’m afraid wearing a hoodie is not part of any religion I recognise.
And I know you said that in the Koran it doesn't actually explicitly say that all women of faith must wear a veil, but some interpret it that it does. It's purely their choice, a choice they can change at any time, but we musn't force change on them (not that Jack Straw was saying this) like that bloke in Liverpool who tore a veil from a woman's face. I think we should just respect their decision whatever it is, even if it does make it hard to interpret their entire body language.
Removing sunglasses or balaclavas when having a converation with someone is the sort of social etiquette that we are raised with in this country. You could say its part of our culture. There have been problems recently with yobs in hooded tops making people feel intimidated and I think that these veils are no different. Its not an attack on the religion, its simply a suggestion of how to intergrate better into our society.
I agree with what he said, as do (I suspect) the majority of people. And let's face it, that's why Straw brought it up.. he still has political ambitions. (It also served to take the tabloid headlines away for the Tory party conference.)
From what i read all he asked for was for them to remove their veils when they are visiting surgeries so people can communicate with them better seeing as we do rely alot on body language and facial expressions to communicate. Doesn't seem like a harsh request to me
Everyone's heard about it on the news, not seen much discussion on here about it though, so thought I'd raise the subject.
For those who don't know much about it ... Jack Straw caused controversy amongst some Muslim groups by suggesting that women should refrain from wearing the full veil or 'Niqab', as it creates a 'barrier' between cultures. He has not tried to ban them or anything similar, he has just sought to open a discussion about how it affects our British culture, and if there are steps that might be taken to integrate our citizens from all backgrounds.
Personally, and not just because I'm from a non-Muslim background, I agree with his comments. I do think a lot of people find these veils intimidating, that the individuals wearing them are less approachable, and that it segregates in some way our multi-cultural society. We as humans naturally use body language and facial expressions to converse and understand one another ... it is natural to be wary of those who cover up. I wonder how people would react to me if I went shopping wearing a balaclava ... no doubt they would ask me to remove it ...
Upon reading up I discovered that it is not compulsory to wear these veils, it is more out of choice than anything, though I do not have a deep understanding of the Muslim faith, so I am willing to concede if this not entirely accurate.
Some more info : [URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5411320.stm[/URL]
Some groups have shown their disapproval of his comments though, calling them 'anti-muslim' and prejudiced. What strikes me is this country is supposed to be a democratic one, enjoying freedom of speech ... Jack Straw is not condemning them for wearing these veils, or even seeking to bring in laws about wearing them, he only wishes to open a discussion, open to all parties and cultures.
Don't know if we have any Muslim members on here, but I'd be interested to hear your comments regardless of faith or culture ...
For those who don't know much about it ... Jack Straw caused controversy amongst some Muslim groups by suggesting that women should refrain from wearing the full veil or 'Niqab', as it creates a 'barrier' between cultures. He has not tried to ban them or anything similar, he has just sought to open a discussion about how it affects our British culture, and if there are steps that might be taken to integrate our citizens from all backgrounds.
Personally, and not just because I'm from a non-Muslim background, I agree with his comments. I do think a lot of people find these veils intimidating, that the individuals wearing them are less approachable, and that it segregates in some way our multi-cultural society. We as humans naturally use body language and facial expressions to converse and understand one another ... it is natural to be wary of those who cover up. I wonder how people would react to me if I went shopping wearing a balaclava ... no doubt they would ask me to remove it ...
Upon reading up I discovered that it is not compulsory to wear these veils, it is more out of choice than anything, though I do not have a deep understanding of the Muslim faith, so I am willing to concede if this not entirely accurate.
Some more info : [URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5411320.stm[/URL]
Some groups have shown their disapproval of his comments though, calling them 'anti-muslim' and prejudiced. What strikes me is this country is supposed to be a democratic one, enjoying freedom of speech ... Jack Straw is not condemning them for wearing these veils, or even seeking to bring in laws about wearing them, he only wishes to open a discussion, open to all parties and cultures.
Don't know if we have any Muslim members on here, but I'd be interested to hear your comments regardless of faith or culture ...
Page: