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Everyone's heard about it on the news, not seen much discussion on here about it though, so thought I'd raise the subject.
For those who don't know much about it ... Jack Straw caused controversy amongst some Muslim groups by suggesting that women should refrain from wearing the full veil or 'Niqab', as it creates a 'barrier' between cultures. He has not tried to ban them or anything similar, he has just sought to open a discussion about how it affects our British culture, and if there are steps that might be taken to integrate our citizens from all backgrounds.
Personally, and not just because I'm from a non-Muslim background, I agree with his comments. I do think a lot of people find these veils intimidating, that the individuals wearing them are less approachable, and that it segregates in some way our multi-cultural society. We as humans naturally use body language and facial expressions to converse and understand one another ... it is natural to be wary of those who cover up. I wonder how people would react to me if I went shopping wearing a balaclava ... no doubt they would ask me to remove it ...
Upon reading up I discovered that it is not compulsory to wear these veils, it is more out of choice than anything, though I do not have a deep understanding of the Muslim faith, so I am willing to concede if this not entirely accurate.
Some more info : [URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5411320.stm[/URL]
Some groups have shown their disapproval of his comments though, calling them 'anti-muslim' and prejudiced. What strikes me is this country is supposed to be a democratic one, enjoying freedom of speech ... Jack Straw is not condemning them for wearing these veils, or even seeking to bring in laws about wearing them, he only wishes to open a discussion, open to all parties and cultures.
Don't know if we have any Muslim members on here, but I'd be interested to hear your comments regardless of faith or culture ...
For those who don't know much about it ... Jack Straw caused controversy amongst some Muslim groups by suggesting that women should refrain from wearing the full veil or 'Niqab', as it creates a 'barrier' between cultures. He has not tried to ban them or anything similar, he has just sought to open a discussion about how it affects our British culture, and if there are steps that might be taken to integrate our citizens from all backgrounds.
Personally, and not just because I'm from a non-Muslim background, I agree with his comments. I do think a lot of people find these veils intimidating, that the individuals wearing them are less approachable, and that it segregates in some way our multi-cultural society. We as humans naturally use body language and facial expressions to converse and understand one another ... it is natural to be wary of those who cover up. I wonder how people would react to me if I went shopping wearing a balaclava ... no doubt they would ask me to remove it ...
Upon reading up I discovered that it is not compulsory to wear these veils, it is more out of choice than anything, though I do not have a deep understanding of the Muslim faith, so I am willing to concede if this not entirely accurate.
Some more info : [URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5411320.stm[/URL]
Some groups have shown their disapproval of his comments though, calling them 'anti-muslim' and prejudiced. What strikes me is this country is supposed to be a democratic one, enjoying freedom of speech ... Jack Straw is not condemning them for wearing these veils, or even seeking to bring in laws about wearing them, he only wishes to open a discussion, open to all parties and cultures.
Don't know if we have any Muslim members on here, but I'd be interested to hear your comments regardless of faith or culture ...
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I agree we should have a discussion on the subject, but suspending teachers over it ... what? How ridiculous.
an update on this. You may have heard on the news that Tony Blair is 'standing by' the school's decision to suspend her, while another MP goes out and asks how could children possibly learn from someone behind a veil. It pains me to see how this country is so easily swayed by people of power raising and subsequently affecting people's actions whilst seemingly taking a so called fair point of view.
The teacher has had no problems in the past, her class has not complained.. yet anything the ministers say in an instant can change the stance of a previously trivial point. In this case I doubt the interviewers saw the veil as an issue when she applied for the job.
The teacher has had no problems in the past, her class has not complained.. yet anything the ministers say in an instant can change the stance of a previously trivial point. In this case I doubt the interviewers saw the veil as an issue when she applied for the job.
hippyman wrote:
> I don't mind being multicultural, but with Christian Laws set in
> place, why should we have our beliefs supressed to cater for a
> different religion?
Christian Laws? What does that mean! This country isn't a Christian state. It's a democracy based on universal humanitarian principles. If we were subject to Christian Laws, sex before marriage would be illegal, adulterers would get banged up in prison, and Sunday football would be blasphemy.
> I don't mind being multicultural, but with Christian Laws set in
> place, why should we have our beliefs supressed to cater for a
> different religion?
Christian Laws? What does that mean! This country isn't a Christian state. It's a democracy based on universal humanitarian principles. If we were subject to Christian Laws, sex before marriage would be illegal, adulterers would get banged up in prison, and Sunday football would be blasphemy.
A fair point but then two problems I have with that ...
One, I'm not religious at all, so I do not like to have any faith forced upon me, be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism etc. I take offence to people coming to my door trying to sell me eternal life ... we should be free to follow what we believe, not get told how to think. I was baptised when I was a child, but I had no choice in that, and I have no intention of practising any faith unless I truly believe in it.
Two, though we are primarily a christian nation, we also class ourselves as 'multi-cultural', something I approve of, because I think it's only through understanding other cultures that we'll lose this fear and prejudice that still prevails in modern day society. I'm still amazed just how much racism there is, I give up trying to argue with people who use derogatory terms against the asian population for example. It's an outdated way of thinking but people still choose to think that way ... even the younger members of society who live in a more ethnic-rich nation than it ever was before, who have asian friends, are getting this prejudice from their parents.
The media doesn't help, if you believed everything you read there you'd be putting a white cloak on your horse and start burning a few crosses. It's pathetic.
But then on the flip side of the coin, I think we're too afraid of offending our Muslim immigrant neighbours ... and I also think some of them are too quick to react whenever we suggest anything that may affect their way of life. We shouldn't be afraid to talk about things, this is a democratic society. We're all the same inside really.
One, I'm not religious at all, so I do not like to have any faith forced upon me, be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism etc. I take offence to people coming to my door trying to sell me eternal life ... we should be free to follow what we believe, not get told how to think. I was baptised when I was a child, but I had no choice in that, and I have no intention of practising any faith unless I truly believe in it.
Two, though we are primarily a christian nation, we also class ourselves as 'multi-cultural', something I approve of, because I think it's only through understanding other cultures that we'll lose this fear and prejudice that still prevails in modern day society. I'm still amazed just how much racism there is, I give up trying to argue with people who use derogatory terms against the asian population for example. It's an outdated way of thinking but people still choose to think that way ... even the younger members of society who live in a more ethnic-rich nation than it ever was before, who have asian friends, are getting this prejudice from their parents.
The media doesn't help, if you believed everything you read there you'd be putting a white cloak on your horse and start burning a few crosses. It's pathetic.
But then on the flip side of the coin, I think we're too afraid of offending our Muslim immigrant neighbours ... and I also think some of them are too quick to react whenever we suggest anything that may affect their way of life. We shouldn't be afraid to talk about things, this is a democratic society. We're all the same inside really.
I'm only stressing this because if we stick to what we is acceptable abroad, we'll be severely punished. I just don't think we should completly throw down our beliefs to suit some other religion.
I don't mind being multicultural, but with Christian Laws set in place, why should we have our beliefs supressed to cater for a different religion?
I don't mind being multicultural, but with Christian Laws set in place, why should we have our beliefs supressed to cater for a different religion?
We do class ourselves as a multi-cultural society, yet we also want these people to conform to british standards and law. It's hard to know where to draw the line.
hippyman wrote:
> I agree with Straw. I don't think he should back down. More
> certain on this after BA refused to allow a woman to wear a
> crucifix as an expression of her faith, yet Sikh's can wear huge
> bangles and Muslims wear veils - sickening this country, always
> penalising those who abide by it's laws and follow the home
> country faith.
>
> :(
I urge you to stop reading the papers and turn off the news. Because right now you're slowly turning into the classic 'Middle England' model that the newspapers promote. That is, bitter and negative about anything and everything that looks, talks and walks different to them. It's a downward spiral to conflict.
Straw's opinion in itself isn't the issue. He merely suggested that he would prefer that those wearing veils he talked to remove them beforehand, and they were not obligated to do so. There is nothing to 'back down' from. If everyone adopted the same stance, there would be minimal, if any confrontation on this issue. There is no harm in politely asking someone to make a meeting more comfortable on an individual basis.
Unfortunately, the message has been twisted in translation and the backlash is severe. An old man ripping the veil off a woman on the street in Liverpool, a teacher suspended for wearing one despite having done so harmoniously and without comment in her school until now. Endless scare stories of lack of integration and 'how can I see them' viewpoints.
The BA incident you mention is as wrong as the veil issue. We should be promoting multiculturalism, not eliminating it altogether. A sad state of affairs indeed.
> I agree with Straw. I don't think he should back down. More
> certain on this after BA refused to allow a woman to wear a
> crucifix as an expression of her faith, yet Sikh's can wear huge
> bangles and Muslims wear veils - sickening this country, always
> penalising those who abide by it's laws and follow the home
> country faith.
>
> :(
I urge you to stop reading the papers and turn off the news. Because right now you're slowly turning into the classic 'Middle England' model that the newspapers promote. That is, bitter and negative about anything and everything that looks, talks and walks different to them. It's a downward spiral to conflict.
Straw's opinion in itself isn't the issue. He merely suggested that he would prefer that those wearing veils he talked to remove them beforehand, and they were not obligated to do so. There is nothing to 'back down' from. If everyone adopted the same stance, there would be minimal, if any confrontation on this issue. There is no harm in politely asking someone to make a meeting more comfortable on an individual basis.
Unfortunately, the message has been twisted in translation and the backlash is severe. An old man ripping the veil off a woman on the street in Liverpool, a teacher suspended for wearing one despite having done so harmoniously and without comment in her school until now. Endless scare stories of lack of integration and 'how can I see them' viewpoints.
The BA incident you mention is as wrong as the veil issue. We should be promoting multiculturalism, not eliminating it altogether. A sad state of affairs indeed.
I agree with Straw. I don't think he should back down. More certain on this after BA refused to allow a woman to wear a crucifix as an expression of her faith, yet Sikh's can wear huge bangles and Muslims wear veils - sickening this country, always penalising those who abide by it's laws and follow the home country faith.
:(
:(
Silent Thunder wrote:
> I wish the
> media would think before they published, than maybe such things
> as the assault on the Muslim woman in Liverpool wouldn't have
> happened, but alas if there's a good story in it...
If it sells papers they'll print it, sad but that's how it is, who cares about the public backlash as long as they shift alot of copies eh?
> I wish the
> media would think before they published, than maybe such things
> as the assault on the Muslim woman in Liverpool wouldn't have
> happened, but alas if there's a good story in it...
If it sells papers they'll print it, sad but that's how it is, who cares about the public backlash as long as they shift alot of copies eh?
Haha, the Daily Mail. :-P
As for your point about them being around for decades, yes true enough, but I don't think there has ever been a stronger emphasis on social integration than at the moment. What with 9/11, 7/7 etc. it's a shame there are people who point the blame solely at Muslims, but again certain papers and groups would have it like this. So it's very important in some people's view that Muslims are integrated into society and some believe to do this the veil must be removed. Whether this is right or wrong, or whether there's a better way to integrate people, is up for debate though.
As for your point about them being around for decades, yes true enough, but I don't think there has ever been a stronger emphasis on social integration than at the moment. What with 9/11, 7/7 etc. it's a shame there are people who point the blame solely at Muslims, but again certain papers and groups would have it like this. So it's very important in some people's view that Muslims are integrated into society and some believe to do this the veil must be removed. Whether this is right or wrong, or whether there's a better way to integrate people, is up for debate though.
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