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Yup, after reading through a few posts on here and seeing how many people take my stance of staying away from the life forums, I wanted to do this topic.
Yesterday I watched Kofi Annan, on Sky, answer questions about the whole Iraq situation. One thing that stood out more than ever, to me, was that this was a guy who actually did want so see a true United Nations. To quote; "The council acts best when it is united."
It's right, but not the case we are seeing right now. It is, as you all know, divided into pro, anti, and "what do we get if we support you" groups of nations. America is essentially threatening the withdrawal and denial of aid to several nations if they do not get in line with the US stance. To me that is plain wrong because aid is aid, it is something you give to those who need it, and yes, you expect friendship in return maybe, but not an automatic over-ride on a nation's stance on an issue. What happened to political sovereignty ?
To add to this, General Meyes, speaking from the Pentagon, in response to a question about Turkey's refusal to let the US use military bases, said this; "We will open a second front in Northern Iraq with or without Turkey's help."
Excuse me ? What on earth is the point in saying that ? It is simply fuelling the belief that the USA will do whatever it wants and steam roller over everything in its way to do so.
Think back to New Years Eve 1999, the Millennium, the year 2000, a new century, was near. Conflict, on the level we are seeing now, and may well see, was not happening. Iraq was contained, terrorism was a rare occurence outside of the Middle East, Israel and the Palestinians were at a somewhat uneasy halt, there was much talk of alleviating third world debt, in other words the outlook was positive. I, and no doubt many others, thought this was the start of some of the better chapters in history. It wasn't a perfect world by far, but many were giving it a damn good go.
A year and half later it fell apart, around 20 men, and a bunch of guys in a cave, ended the illusion. At the time the response, Operation Enduring Freedom, seemed the right thing to do, in my opinion. Now ? well many Afghani's have a better life for sure, but the root of the problem, the hardcore terrorists and leaders, were long gone. We killed many many fighters who in all realism would never have left Afghanistan. The objective was to get those behind 9/11, and disassemble the infrastructure of Al Queda, and their Taliban supporters, in Afghanistan. To a degree it worked, but many spread around the world.
The USA, UK, and the West in general, have hardened security to counter terrorists, so the terrorists are hitting people outside of those areas. Kenya, Bali, Phillipines, Indonesia - easy targets. We're not really winning, we're displacing.
Originally I believed that George Bush was a good man in the wrong place at the wrong time. But his policies are destroying most hope for any kind of better future for us, the people of Iraq, and anyone else his policies effect. That US ambassador's letter was right, in a way. Everything that America and successive administrations have worked for, the alliances and trusts, is being destroyed overnight.
For what ? The world, and international politics, is ripping itself apart because of a small oil rich nation which has largely been ignored for over ten years. Iraq is, in the face of overwhelming odds, making some slow concessions.
I beleived at one point that concessions like these were always stalling tactics, ploys to spin out time. But, what if this is a case of two different kinds of culture, politics, governments, clashing and not understanding each other ? Do we really want to do this because of misunderstanding ?
The announced strategy today, is another reason for my change of heart. More ordinance than was used in the entire Gulf War, will hit Baghdad in one night on the first day of war. That is, to anyone who knows what kind of weapons will be used, insane. I don't know about shock and awe but it's going to do little to win over Iraqi civilians, even I will admit that that amount of weaponry will kill more innocents than it will targets.
Bush is, I fear, losing sight of the objective - the weapons of mass destruction and Saddam. We know full well that anyone in the Iraqi military who opposes Saddam is dead, along with his family, and anyone else who supports him. We know that the scientists we question cannot give us what we want, and that they endanger themselves and their families if they do. A full on invasion is overkill, because whilst Iraqi soliders are dying, Saddam will be safe, and more than likely flee or hide.
What needs to happen, is for people to back down and admit they are wrong, like I'm doing now. You can carry on saying something for so long that to go back on it seems impossible, a loss of face, but when the stakes are potentially thousands of lives, it has to be done.
Bush needs to back down, and the other countries need to give him the space and support so he can do so and retain some credibility. You may think Bush does not deserve such support, but is is the only way America could back down now. Saddam also needs to back down, give the UN more time and access, and in a perfect world, Saddam would step back, allow free elections - like Iran is suggesting - and let a semblance of democracy begin. Again, America needs to give Iraq space. 250 000 troops is overkill, they'll wipe out the entire Iraqi army but not Saddam. The threat of force has obtained co operation, but it is a a somewhat hard handed way of doing it.
Maybe we don't need war, but neither is containment an option again. It's killing the Iraqi's and doing nothing for the UN's image in the Iraq.
You may have noticed a deviation from my normal tone here, slightly.
Let me make this clear; I believe in America, and the idea of the American dream, and that given the right person America can be an agent of true democracy, freedom and all that entails. In fact given the right people in charge of many countries, and I can offer no idea of who these people would be, except to say they would be "Good" people - however you define them - , this could be a different world.
George Bush is not one of these good men, neither is Saddam, neither is Yassir Arafat, neither is Ariel Sharon. Between them, these four men are destroying any hope of a finer world for all of us, and not just for us - as in the West - but for everyone. War isn't going to make that world because the peace it creates is just an absence of war, not true peace.
Apologies to all who I have belittled, and argued with, but it was what I believed then. I still believe in America - whatever you think that is - but not Bush. In many ways he is changing what America is and stands for, and I am thinking that the UN is now the only organisation, along with people in the US administration, who can stop this before it is too late.
More and more I think that if we attack Iraq, in this way, at this time, we wave goodbye to peace for our, and our childrens, lifetimes, and maybe beyond.
If you read this far, thanks for reading.
Yesterday I watched Kofi Annan, on Sky, answer questions about the whole Iraq situation. One thing that stood out more than ever, to me, was that this was a guy who actually did want so see a true United Nations. To quote; "The council acts best when it is united."
It's right, but not the case we are seeing right now. It is, as you all know, divided into pro, anti, and "what do we get if we support you" groups of nations. America is essentially threatening the withdrawal and denial of aid to several nations if they do not get in line with the US stance. To me that is plain wrong because aid is aid, it is something you give to those who need it, and yes, you expect friendship in return maybe, but not an automatic over-ride on a nation's stance on an issue. What happened to political sovereignty ?
To add to this, General Meyes, speaking from the Pentagon, in response to a question about Turkey's refusal to let the US use military bases, said this; "We will open a second front in Northern Iraq with or without Turkey's help."
Excuse me ? What on earth is the point in saying that ? It is simply fuelling the belief that the USA will do whatever it wants and steam roller over everything in its way to do so.
Think back to New Years Eve 1999, the Millennium, the year 2000, a new century, was near. Conflict, on the level we are seeing now, and may well see, was not happening. Iraq was contained, terrorism was a rare occurence outside of the Middle East, Israel and the Palestinians were at a somewhat uneasy halt, there was much talk of alleviating third world debt, in other words the outlook was positive. I, and no doubt many others, thought this was the start of some of the better chapters in history. It wasn't a perfect world by far, but many were giving it a damn good go.
A year and half later it fell apart, around 20 men, and a bunch of guys in a cave, ended the illusion. At the time the response, Operation Enduring Freedom, seemed the right thing to do, in my opinion. Now ? well many Afghani's have a better life for sure, but the root of the problem, the hardcore terrorists and leaders, were long gone. We killed many many fighters who in all realism would never have left Afghanistan. The objective was to get those behind 9/11, and disassemble the infrastructure of Al Queda, and their Taliban supporters, in Afghanistan. To a degree it worked, but many spread around the world.
The USA, UK, and the West in general, have hardened security to counter terrorists, so the terrorists are hitting people outside of those areas. Kenya, Bali, Phillipines, Indonesia - easy targets. We're not really winning, we're displacing.
Originally I believed that George Bush was a good man in the wrong place at the wrong time. But his policies are destroying most hope for any kind of better future for us, the people of Iraq, and anyone else his policies effect. That US ambassador's letter was right, in a way. Everything that America and successive administrations have worked for, the alliances and trusts, is being destroyed overnight.
For what ? The world, and international politics, is ripping itself apart because of a small oil rich nation which has largely been ignored for over ten years. Iraq is, in the face of overwhelming odds, making some slow concessions.
I beleived at one point that concessions like these were always stalling tactics, ploys to spin out time. But, what if this is a case of two different kinds of culture, politics, governments, clashing and not understanding each other ? Do we really want to do this because of misunderstanding ?
The announced strategy today, is another reason for my change of heart. More ordinance than was used in the entire Gulf War, will hit Baghdad in one night on the first day of war. That is, to anyone who knows what kind of weapons will be used, insane. I don't know about shock and awe but it's going to do little to win over Iraqi civilians, even I will admit that that amount of weaponry will kill more innocents than it will targets.
Bush is, I fear, losing sight of the objective - the weapons of mass destruction and Saddam. We know full well that anyone in the Iraqi military who opposes Saddam is dead, along with his family, and anyone else who supports him. We know that the scientists we question cannot give us what we want, and that they endanger themselves and their families if they do. A full on invasion is overkill, because whilst Iraqi soliders are dying, Saddam will be safe, and more than likely flee or hide.
What needs to happen, is for people to back down and admit they are wrong, like I'm doing now. You can carry on saying something for so long that to go back on it seems impossible, a loss of face, but when the stakes are potentially thousands of lives, it has to be done.
Bush needs to back down, and the other countries need to give him the space and support so he can do so and retain some credibility. You may think Bush does not deserve such support, but is is the only way America could back down now. Saddam also needs to back down, give the UN more time and access, and in a perfect world, Saddam would step back, allow free elections - like Iran is suggesting - and let a semblance of democracy begin. Again, America needs to give Iraq space. 250 000 troops is overkill, they'll wipe out the entire Iraqi army but not Saddam. The threat of force has obtained co operation, but it is a a somewhat hard handed way of doing it.
Maybe we don't need war, but neither is containment an option again. It's killing the Iraqi's and doing nothing for the UN's image in the Iraq.
You may have noticed a deviation from my normal tone here, slightly.
Let me make this clear; I believe in America, and the idea of the American dream, and that given the right person America can be an agent of true democracy, freedom and all that entails. In fact given the right people in charge of many countries, and I can offer no idea of who these people would be, except to say they would be "Good" people - however you define them - , this could be a different world.
George Bush is not one of these good men, neither is Saddam, neither is Yassir Arafat, neither is Ariel Sharon. Between them, these four men are destroying any hope of a finer world for all of us, and not just for us - as in the West - but for everyone. War isn't going to make that world because the peace it creates is just an absence of war, not true peace.
Apologies to all who I have belittled, and argued with, but it was what I believed then. I still believe in America - whatever you think that is - but not Bush. In many ways he is changing what America is and stands for, and I am thinking that the UN is now the only organisation, along with people in the US administration, who can stop this before it is too late.
More and more I think that if we attack Iraq, in this way, at this time, we wave goodbye to peace for our, and our childrens, lifetimes, and maybe beyond.
If you read this far, thanks for reading.
Page:
Star Fury wrote:
> Yeah yeah, go read, listen to, or watch Bill Hicks.
---
Kill yourself.
Go on.
Do it now.
> Yeah yeah, go read, listen to, or watch Bill Hicks.
---
Kill yourself.
Go on.
Do it now.
Star Fury wrote:
Despite overwhelming evidence I will
> not admit that, as the war's aims included regime change, and I
> opposed the war, that this actually supported Saddam's legitimacy.
--
This is his point, mongoloid.
What overwhelming evidence? Your idiotic, spastic mind just says "overwhelming evidence" and refuses to say what it is.
Kill yourself.
Do it.
End it now, it can all be so much easier for you and so much more fun for the rest of the world.
Kill yourself.
Go on.
Despite overwhelming evidence I will
> not admit that, as the war's aims included regime change, and I
> opposed the war, that this actually supported Saddam's legitimacy.
--
This is his point, mongoloid.
What overwhelming evidence? Your idiotic, spastic mind just says "overwhelming evidence" and refuses to say what it is.
Kill yourself.
Do it.
End it now, it can all be so much easier for you and so much more fun for the rest of the world.
Kill yourself.
Go on.
About two weeks. Well done. That's the longest you've managed yet.
Read my original post again moron.
Never said I was leaving, said I was posting less and less and only in things that mattered.
Getting this mongoloid chimpanzee to off himself is worth the 30 seconds it takes.
Go on Star, kill yourself.
Never said I was leaving, said I was posting less and less and only in things that mattered.
Getting this mongoloid chimpanzee to off himself is worth the 30 seconds it takes.
Go on Star, kill yourself.
Well, you were taking a break for a while, then you got angry because people disagreed with you and said balls to it.
I'd ask you to post more, if it made any difference, because a helluva lot of people enjoy your posts.
I'd ask you to post more, if it made any difference, because a helluva lot of people enjoy your posts.
And I enjoy posting, but the continual mindlessness (that feels wrong but is spelt right) was making me angry - and I can't be arsed to get annoyed at a website - so I remove myself.
Just post occasionally now, in and out - less hassle for my brain and easier on the temper.
Sorry for calling you a moron - I'll concentrate on trying to get Star Fury to killhimself instead of insulting decent posters.
Just post occasionally now, in and out - less hassle for my brain and easier on the temper.
Sorry for calling you a moron - I'll concentrate on trying to get Star Fury to killhimself instead of insulting decent posters.
Not a problem. I come here less now as well. People like this guy and Kyz22 have suddenly appeared and they irk me.
Post more anyway. IB had a sulk because you left and he's gone somewhere to cry. That's a good thing.
Post more anyway. IB had a sulk because you left and he's gone somewhere to cry. That's a good thing.
Goatboy wrote:
> Star Fury wrote:
> Yeah yeah, go read, listen to, or watch Bill Hicks.
>
> ---
>
> Kill yourself.
> Go on.
> Do it now.
Oh that is soooooooooooo old now, before it was, like, your pent up frustration kinda thing, but now it's boring.
RE: Overwhelming Evidence.
*Terrorist camps in north destroyed.
*Major terrorist captured.
*Iraqi scientists claiming that evidence was ordered destroyed 4 days before war began.
*The Iraqi people finally turning against the regime, against all the odds.
*Total lack of evidence to support the "war for oil" idea offered by you, apart from your tenuos "Bush=texan=oil" assumptions.
*Total lack of Vietnam style conflict having happened.
*Anti-war campaigner George Galloway's real motives unmasked, and defend him if you can, the guy is a traitor, speaking from a country where we have a somewhat iffy chance of legal extradition.
*Millions of US$ from oil for food program sitting in boxes/safes/properties which the US, rightly, claimed was being diverted by Saddam for his own uses.
*Evidence of Saddam's forces murdering over 1000 Iranian POWS
*Evidence of the murder of thousands of Iraqi political prisoners
*Evidence of the torture, imprisonment (you did see the underground, walled off prisons right ?) and rape of 1000's more Iraqi political prisoners.
*Iraq fired missiles at Kuwait.
*Evidence the entire IRaqi army was prepared for Bio-warfare, when Saddam knows full well we only use those weapons in retaliation, so why have them, considering the cost, eh ?
*Evidence of massive purchases from China and Russia of military equipment whose defensive uses were limited.
*Hiding of weapons and systems in schools, hospitals, graveyards.
*Execution of US + UK POWS and numerous Geneva convention breaches. In the case of Jessica Lynch she was treated so badly that an Iraqi civilian walked 6 miles to contact US Marines, putting his own family in danger, and then made the same round trip two more times, all to help the "invaders".
But oh no, this was war for oil and should never have happened, you, and others, would rather have had no conflict and have Saddam sitting on his throne, which, face facts, is where we would be today if there had been no war.
Sure, you can make a list of events in the USA's history, and the UK's and (INSERT EVERY NATION ON EARTH HERE) but the fact is Iraq needed sorting. UN had 12 years, failed. We gave it 6 months, then went in, and we'll stay this time until the job is done.
Name any dictator led regime that has been overthrown peacefully in history (not including ones where said dictator has died naturally) and democracy restored. Go on.
> Star Fury wrote:
> Yeah yeah, go read, listen to, or watch Bill Hicks.
>
> ---
>
> Kill yourself.
> Go on.
> Do it now.
Oh that is soooooooooooo old now, before it was, like, your pent up frustration kinda thing, but now it's boring.
RE: Overwhelming Evidence.
*Terrorist camps in north destroyed.
*Major terrorist captured.
*Iraqi scientists claiming that evidence was ordered destroyed 4 days before war began.
*The Iraqi people finally turning against the regime, against all the odds.
*Total lack of evidence to support the "war for oil" idea offered by you, apart from your tenuos "Bush=texan=oil" assumptions.
*Total lack of Vietnam style conflict having happened.
*Anti-war campaigner George Galloway's real motives unmasked, and defend him if you can, the guy is a traitor, speaking from a country where we have a somewhat iffy chance of legal extradition.
*Millions of US$ from oil for food program sitting in boxes/safes/properties which the US, rightly, claimed was being diverted by Saddam for his own uses.
*Evidence of Saddam's forces murdering over 1000 Iranian POWS
*Evidence of the murder of thousands of Iraqi political prisoners
*Evidence of the torture, imprisonment (you did see the underground, walled off prisons right ?) and rape of 1000's more Iraqi political prisoners.
*Iraq fired missiles at Kuwait.
*Evidence the entire IRaqi army was prepared for Bio-warfare, when Saddam knows full well we only use those weapons in retaliation, so why have them, considering the cost, eh ?
*Evidence of massive purchases from China and Russia of military equipment whose defensive uses were limited.
*Hiding of weapons and systems in schools, hospitals, graveyards.
*Execution of US + UK POWS and numerous Geneva convention breaches. In the case of Jessica Lynch she was treated so badly that an Iraqi civilian walked 6 miles to contact US Marines, putting his own family in danger, and then made the same round trip two more times, all to help the "invaders".
But oh no, this was war for oil and should never have happened, you, and others, would rather have had no conflict and have Saddam sitting on his throne, which, face facts, is where we would be today if there had been no war.
Sure, you can make a list of events in the USA's history, and the UK's and (INSERT EVERY NATION ON EARTH HERE) but the fact is Iraq needed sorting. UN had 12 years, failed. We gave it 6 months, then went in, and we'll stay this time until the job is done.
Name any dictator led regime that has been overthrown peacefully in history (not including ones where said dictator has died naturally) and democracy restored. Go on.
For somebody that doesn't care, you sho'nuff post enough Bell.
*packs away rod and boxes tackle*
You're easier to play than Starfox.
Mongoloid.
And I would respond with serious debate, but it's like beating a kitten.
Run along retard.
*pats head and saunters away*
*packs away rod and boxes tackle*
You're easier to play than Starfox.
Mongoloid.
And I would respond with serious debate, but it's like beating a kitten.
Run along retard.
*pats head and saunters away*
Oh, and yet again your "evidence" consists of you saying "This is the case" without any backing up with links etc.
Pft.
Never said it was a war for oil.
Never said Hussein should be left there.
And you were so dumb for your "anti-war means pacifist" comment, which you haven't responded to.
Just as you were quick to disappear from a debate about Chomsky when it became blindingly obvious you hadn't actually read anything by him at all.
And you still haven't answered my questions from a few pages back, apart from some excuse about "I just wrote it for a reaction"
Kid, you got beat and went on the offensive because you were shown to be the mongoloid, groupthink, armchair Thatcher you are.
For a, what?...18/19yr old you like to think you're the font of all knowledge.
I can't wait for you get out into the world, reality will slap you so hard across the face it'll knock Bush's **** from your slack mouth.
*dusts hands*
Now run along Mongoloid and kill yourself.
Go on.
Pft.
Never said it was a war for oil.
Never said Hussein should be left there.
And you were so dumb for your "anti-war means pacifist" comment, which you haven't responded to.
Just as you were quick to disappear from a debate about Chomsky when it became blindingly obvious you hadn't actually read anything by him at all.
And you still haven't answered my questions from a few pages back, apart from some excuse about "I just wrote it for a reaction"
Kid, you got beat and went on the offensive because you were shown to be the mongoloid, groupthink, armchair Thatcher you are.
For a, what?...18/19yr old you like to think you're the font of all knowledge.
I can't wait for you get out into the world, reality will slap you so hard across the face it'll knock Bush's **** from your slack mouth.
*dusts hands*
Now run along Mongoloid and kill yourself.
Go on.
Page: