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I don't know how to say this without shocking you so I'll just come right out and say it; anti-Americanism really gets on my nerves. I really cannot stand the blinkered and unconditional hatred of all things American that spews endlessly and mindlessly from the mouths of people who couldn't actually tell you what it is that they would like done instead, but know that if America wants it then they will oppose it. Even after September 11th (which, when mentioned now, seems like the most ancient of history don't you think?), there were warranted reminders that America's policy in the Middle East had done much to provide the breeding grounds for this seemingly new species of terrorist. They soon degenerated into justifications for why America SHOULD be destroyed. I'm sure you've heard the sort of thing; well meaning types who nod in agreement at how awful the atrocity was only to launch into a learned-by-rote "If you think that's bad, look at what America has done...." spiel.
Which, in itself, isn't so bad; America's various governments are indeed responsible for some horrendous acts across the world. But to listen to some of these people, you'd think that the destruction of the WTC was an act of youthful high spirits ("Cor, what about those terrorists eh? Cheeky little blighters..."), whilst every act of oppression or destruction committed by the US was planned by Satan and executed by the direct descendants of Hitler. I'm not blind to the countless tortures, murders, acts of brutality, and curtailing of freedoms that can be directly or indirectly attributed to America. But neither am I willing to gloss over the degenerate and hate fuelled ideals of Al-Quaida.
Now there's a name you probably won't have read or heard about in a while: Al-Quaida. Remember them? What with all the fuss about Iraq, you may have forgotten that they ever existed, or assumed that they no longer do. Well, sad to say that they are alive and bombing. They are an organisation that has anti-Semitism and totalitarianism at the heart of its beliefs. One only has to look at the effects of Taliban rule in Afghanistan to get a taste of what life would be like with them as the world’s foremost power. They are to Islam what the Nazi's were to patriotism; a good idea twisted to suit the needs of evil men.
You may yet hear some of those rabid anti-Americans mention them, but only to say that the US don't want to mention them as it will distract you from hating Iraq with all of your sheep-like soul. Those same anti-Americans will then forget all about Al-Quaida, and proceed to tell you why you should hate the US. In other words, they will treat you with all the contempt that they accuse the US of treating you with, and try to get you bleating a refrain more to their liking.
To put it another way, I dislike anti-Americanism because many of those who fall into this bracket are exactly what they accuse the US as a whole of being; selfish little fools who disguise their simplistic hatred by dressing it up in high minded motives that fall apart under close inspection. To put it another way, I also dislike them because they allow people to dismiss all criticism of America, be it justified or not. And whilst I am generally pro-American, I have found myself growing more and more disillusioned with the land of the free.
There are a number of reasons for this and I won't presume to bore you with all of them. I think, however, that the crux of the matter lies in the fact that, like every other pro-American, I believed the hype about the American dream. Does anyone even remember that any more? Has the world grown so weary and cynical that we say the words with a sneer on our face? It was supposedly the birthright of every American to dream the impossible dream; that they may one day achieve whatever it is that they want, maybe even be President one day, so long as they are willing to work hard to get it.
Now it seems that the American dream is over. It has been dreamt by a select few, and it is THEIR dream, not yours. THEY will achieve whatever they want, and you will be expected to keep your head down and keep yourself busy with 3rd rate dreams; maybe it's that home entertainment system that you've been saving for. Perhaps a new car, or a better house. If that is what you want, you will die content. But don't expect to make a difference, or have any say in the way things are done. That dream is reserved is for the rich, the powerful, the established circle of a few hundred people who don't much care about anything beyond what they want.
When anti-Americans bray their mantra, it is these few to whom they should be addressing their bile. Instead they implicate the whole nation in the shortsighted stupidity of a few men, and so Americans are (understandably) bullish in defending themselves against what appears to be an unwarranted attack. Yet in defending their nation and its actions so unconditionally, they are defending those few men who are only patriotic Americans so long as America can be milked for all it is worth. To steal a literary reference, the American people are akin to Don Quixote. America's elite are the idle and worthless nobility who contribute nothing and take everything. If you really want to stretch the metaphor to breaking point, anti-Americans are the knight who demand Quixote abandon his dreams and return to drudge and normality.
So why should I, or anyone else in Europe, care about America and it's people? Well, partly because the alternatives to American world dominance is perpetual warfare with extremists who think nothing of butchering thousands of civilians in the name of a prophet who preached peace and brotherhood. Or dominance by a nation who, despite having a fifth of all the world within their borders, are not exactly renowned for their love of human rights. For all my desire to see a just and equal world, a tarnished American dream is better than no dream at all. However, it's mainly because the same thing is starting to happen right here.
How many people have given up having any say in the way the nation is run? How many people spend their lives worrying about their job and all of it's mind numbing day to day minutiae rather than sparing just a single thought about whether or not life is really getting better for them? How many people can say that they have ambition beyond getting their next house, or car, or whatever pretty gadget that will make their life easier? Speaking personally, I don't want to be free to do exactly what my increasingly corrupt and self-serving government tell me to do. I would like the freedom to be able to make a difference (and the freedom to not want to make a difference either; I'm realistic enough to accept that politics isn't exactly everyone's cup of tea!). It's not so remote a possibility that someday we will all be like Don Quixote; mocked and abused by rulers who don't care if we live or die. If we can turn anti-Americanism into pro-Freedom, that would be one step on the road to ensuring that such a thing never happens.
Which, in itself, isn't so bad; America's various governments are indeed responsible for some horrendous acts across the world. But to listen to some of these people, you'd think that the destruction of the WTC was an act of youthful high spirits ("Cor, what about those terrorists eh? Cheeky little blighters..."), whilst every act of oppression or destruction committed by the US was planned by Satan and executed by the direct descendants of Hitler. I'm not blind to the countless tortures, murders, acts of brutality, and curtailing of freedoms that can be directly or indirectly attributed to America. But neither am I willing to gloss over the degenerate and hate fuelled ideals of Al-Quaida.
Now there's a name you probably won't have read or heard about in a while: Al-Quaida. Remember them? What with all the fuss about Iraq, you may have forgotten that they ever existed, or assumed that they no longer do. Well, sad to say that they are alive and bombing. They are an organisation that has anti-Semitism and totalitarianism at the heart of its beliefs. One only has to look at the effects of Taliban rule in Afghanistan to get a taste of what life would be like with them as the world’s foremost power. They are to Islam what the Nazi's were to patriotism; a good idea twisted to suit the needs of evil men.
You may yet hear some of those rabid anti-Americans mention them, but only to say that the US don't want to mention them as it will distract you from hating Iraq with all of your sheep-like soul. Those same anti-Americans will then forget all about Al-Quaida, and proceed to tell you why you should hate the US. In other words, they will treat you with all the contempt that they accuse the US of treating you with, and try to get you bleating a refrain more to their liking.
To put it another way, I dislike anti-Americanism because many of those who fall into this bracket are exactly what they accuse the US as a whole of being; selfish little fools who disguise their simplistic hatred by dressing it up in high minded motives that fall apart under close inspection. To put it another way, I also dislike them because they allow people to dismiss all criticism of America, be it justified or not. And whilst I am generally pro-American, I have found myself growing more and more disillusioned with the land of the free.
There are a number of reasons for this and I won't presume to bore you with all of them. I think, however, that the crux of the matter lies in the fact that, like every other pro-American, I believed the hype about the American dream. Does anyone even remember that any more? Has the world grown so weary and cynical that we say the words with a sneer on our face? It was supposedly the birthright of every American to dream the impossible dream; that they may one day achieve whatever it is that they want, maybe even be President one day, so long as they are willing to work hard to get it.
Now it seems that the American dream is over. It has been dreamt by a select few, and it is THEIR dream, not yours. THEY will achieve whatever they want, and you will be expected to keep your head down and keep yourself busy with 3rd rate dreams; maybe it's that home entertainment system that you've been saving for. Perhaps a new car, or a better house. If that is what you want, you will die content. But don't expect to make a difference, or have any say in the way things are done. That dream is reserved is for the rich, the powerful, the established circle of a few hundred people who don't much care about anything beyond what they want.
When anti-Americans bray their mantra, it is these few to whom they should be addressing their bile. Instead they implicate the whole nation in the shortsighted stupidity of a few men, and so Americans are (understandably) bullish in defending themselves against what appears to be an unwarranted attack. Yet in defending their nation and its actions so unconditionally, they are defending those few men who are only patriotic Americans so long as America can be milked for all it is worth. To steal a literary reference, the American people are akin to Don Quixote. America's elite are the idle and worthless nobility who contribute nothing and take everything. If you really want to stretch the metaphor to breaking point, anti-Americans are the knight who demand Quixote abandon his dreams and return to drudge and normality.
So why should I, or anyone else in Europe, care about America and it's people? Well, partly because the alternatives to American world dominance is perpetual warfare with extremists who think nothing of butchering thousands of civilians in the name of a prophet who preached peace and brotherhood. Or dominance by a nation who, despite having a fifth of all the world within their borders, are not exactly renowned for their love of human rights. For all my desire to see a just and equal world, a tarnished American dream is better than no dream at all. However, it's mainly because the same thing is starting to happen right here.
How many people have given up having any say in the way the nation is run? How many people spend their lives worrying about their job and all of it's mind numbing day to day minutiae rather than sparing just a single thought about whether or not life is really getting better for them? How many people can say that they have ambition beyond getting their next house, or car, or whatever pretty gadget that will make their life easier? Speaking personally, I don't want to be free to do exactly what my increasingly corrupt and self-serving government tell me to do. I would like the freedom to be able to make a difference (and the freedom to not want to make a difference either; I'm realistic enough to accept that politics isn't exactly everyone's cup of tea!). It's not so remote a possibility that someday we will all be like Don Quixote; mocked and abused by rulers who don't care if we live or die. If we can turn anti-Americanism into pro-Freedom, that would be one step on the road to ensuring that such a thing never happens.
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unknown kernel wrote:
> The owner of my local curry house persuaded me to join the Palestinian
> Solidarity Campaign (we spent a lot of time together before I learnt
> to cook).
One of the funniest sentences I've ever read.
Anyway, onto what Goatboy said - if I'm honest I don't really care either. I'm apathetic on the matter to some extent. But it's still fun to have debates and stuff about it, whether someone's opinion is changed or not. Maybe "fun" is the wrong word. Well whatever, if we hated debating about things we wouldn't do it.
> The owner of my local curry house persuaded me to join the Palestinian
> Solidarity Campaign (we spent a lot of time together before I learnt
> to cook).
One of the funniest sentences I've ever read.
Anyway, onto what Goatboy said - if I'm honest I don't really care either. I'm apathetic on the matter to some extent. But it's still fun to have debates and stuff about it, whether someone's opinion is changed or not. Maybe "fun" is the wrong word. Well whatever, if we hated debating about things we wouldn't do it.
Personally I think demonstrations are a waste of time. Mostly they jst divert the police form doing something useful. Besides, I'm not pro war, or anti war so I'd be stuck for one to go to anyway.
~~Belldandy~~
~~Belldandy~~
Oh, I forgot to say: viva la part time revolution.
Goatboy wrote:
> I don't care. You do and engage in lengthy debates here.
> What do you do apart from argue here?
> Same as me - nothing.
I don't know about anyone else, but I do as much as I can without becoming a full time revolutionary. I've been on anti-war demos. The owner of my local curry house persuaded me to join the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign (we spent a lot of time together before I learnt to cook). I joined a political party. I've made long and boring posts on this forum.
The trouble is I have a life to live as well. So instead of planning to blow up parliament I play computer games, drink, attempt to sleep with girls and go to work. And, short of taking the Bush/Bin Laden method of 'persuasion', there isn't a whole lot more I could do.
> I don't care. You do and engage in lengthy debates here.
> What do you do apart from argue here?
> Same as me - nothing.
I don't know about anyone else, but I do as much as I can without becoming a full time revolutionary. I've been on anti-war demos. The owner of my local curry house persuaded me to join the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign (we spent a lot of time together before I learnt to cook). I joined a political party. I've made long and boring posts on this forum.
The trouble is I have a life to live as well. So instead of planning to blow up parliament I play computer games, drink, attempt to sleep with girls and go to work. And, short of taking the Bush/Bin Laden method of 'persuasion', there isn't a whole lot more I could do.
allardini wrote:
> Would Mr. Goatboy comment on the subgect?
-----
I dont care.
Really, I don't.
Apart from losing my Uncle in the Pentagon attack, I couldn't care less what happens or what people do to each other.
Go Blair, Bush and Bin Laden.
Bomb each other, bomb us.
In the words of current nerdlinger Liam Lynch "So I was...I was down at the local forum and they were all like eeuurrgh...whatever"
And before y'all start getting red-faced, answer me this:
I don't care. You do and engage in lengthy debates here.
What do you do apart from argue here?
Same as me - nothing.
I'm just honest enough to say "Couldn't give a toss, mate"
> Would Mr. Goatboy comment on the subgect?
-----
I dont care.
Really, I don't.
Apart from losing my Uncle in the Pentagon attack, I couldn't care less what happens or what people do to each other.
Go Blair, Bush and Bin Laden.
Bomb each other, bomb us.
In the words of current nerdlinger Liam Lynch "So I was...I was down at the local forum and they were all like eeuurrgh...whatever"
And before y'all start getting red-faced, answer me this:
I don't care. You do and engage in lengthy debates here.
What do you do apart from argue here?
Same as me - nothing.
I'm just honest enough to say "Couldn't give a toss, mate"
Blank wrote:
>
> I think this is pretty much all opinion and little fact. We can't
> really give a right or wrong answer to it - it's all down to opinion,
> whether informed or not.
...is the correct answer! We are forced to rely on what we can glean from the media. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we remember that various parts of the media have their own agendas to follow.
>
> I think this is pretty much all opinion and little fact. We can't
> really give a right or wrong answer to it - it's all down to opinion,
> whether informed or not.
...is the correct answer! We are forced to rely on what we can glean from the media. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we remember that various parts of the media have their own agendas to follow.
Ashley wrote:
> Um, Al Quaeda aren't the only ones i'm suspicious of, I think Mr light
> could have a secret identity.
I'm with you on that one, but who ?
> Um, Al Quaeda aren't the only ones i'm suspicious of, I think Mr light
> could have a secret identity.
I'm with you on that one, but who ?
I think it could all be solved by the only phrase you would need if you ever went to Germany:
"Verkaufen sie wiener würstchen in der allgemeinen bibliothek?"
Ich wundere mich...
"Verkaufen sie wiener würstchen in der allgemeinen bibliothek?"
Ich wundere mich...
Um, Al Quaeda aren't the only ones i'm suspicious of, I think Mr light could have a secret identity.
Belldandy wrote:
> Only if you assume these reasons justify that action - which they
> didn't.
That's a matter of opinion. I'm sure you wouldn't go as far as to say that you can empathise fully with the "terrorists", and know everything they have experienced? I'm not a terrorist supporter, but I'm just looking from their point of view.
> you yourself Blank make reference - whether
> intentionally or not - to why these reasons seem to have credence or
> justify the action
All I'm saying is that there is a reason for their actions. A cause. Whether it justifies the response or not isn't really for me to say. It depends on your beliefs. You could see it that one huge act is repayment for years of lesser acts, I'm not trying to lean either way.
> you say the "uninformed" - suggesting
> the "informed" few know better, that they are somehow
> enlightened - which they aren't.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across that way. What I meant by the "uninformed" was the people who just spout what they have been told, in an attempt to look clever or elevated, rather than the people who have actually thought about it and looked at it from all angles. No one can ever be enlightened, especially in a case like this, and I'd be the first one to say that.
> There was one undisputed reason. Osama bin Laden ordered it done, and
> they did it.
I think that's a bit of a flat statement. Maybe, and the evidence is pointing this way but it is as far as I'm aware unproven, Osama bin Laden did just order it. But there must be a reason why he did this, and his earlier attempt (if indeed he is to blame). Again, some might say his reason still did not justify his actions. But some do - most of us will have seen the TV pictures of people danicng in the streets after Septmeber 11th - and while I'm sure these actions were somewhat "hammed up" for the cameras, we get the impression that they weren't exactly depressed by the events.
I think this is pretty much all opinion and little fact. We can't really give a right or wrong answer to it - it's all down to opinion, whether informed or not.
> Only if you assume these reasons justify that action - which they
> didn't.
That's a matter of opinion. I'm sure you wouldn't go as far as to say that you can empathise fully with the "terrorists", and know everything they have experienced? I'm not a terrorist supporter, but I'm just looking from their point of view.
> you yourself Blank make reference - whether
> intentionally or not - to why these reasons seem to have credence or
> justify the action
All I'm saying is that there is a reason for their actions. A cause. Whether it justifies the response or not isn't really for me to say. It depends on your beliefs. You could see it that one huge act is repayment for years of lesser acts, I'm not trying to lean either way.
> you say the "uninformed" - suggesting
> the "informed" few know better, that they are somehow
> enlightened - which they aren't.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across that way. What I meant by the "uninformed" was the people who just spout what they have been told, in an attempt to look clever or elevated, rather than the people who have actually thought about it and looked at it from all angles. No one can ever be enlightened, especially in a case like this, and I'd be the first one to say that.
> There was one undisputed reason. Osama bin Laden ordered it done, and
> they did it.
I think that's a bit of a flat statement. Maybe, and the evidence is pointing this way but it is as far as I'm aware unproven, Osama bin Laden did just order it. But there must be a reason why he did this, and his earlier attempt (if indeed he is to blame). Again, some might say his reason still did not justify his actions. But some do - most of us will have seen the TV pictures of people danicng in the streets after Septmeber 11th - and while I'm sure these actions were somewhat "hammed up" for the cameras, we get the impression that they weren't exactly depressed by the events.
I think this is pretty much all opinion and little fact. We can't really give a right or wrong answer to it - it's all down to opinion, whether informed or not.
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