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Watched Red Dragon last night.
Quick capsule review: Terrible film, waste of good source material and a shoddy remake of the existing version.
Good things about it?
Emily Watson. I've seen her in Breaking The Waves and a couple of other movies and she continues to give good performances in otherwise bad films. Red Dragon is no exception.
Ted Tally, the screenwriter for Silence of The Lambs did this one, so I initially had high hopes for it. But I should have known it was going to be bad when I heard the casting for this one.
In the book, the character breakdowns are thus:
Will Graham - A man burnt out, weary from his experiences and haunted by previous cases. Enjoying his middle-aged seclusion in Florida with wife and stepchild. Originally played by William Peterson. Who is it this time?
Edward Norton. A good actor for sure, but playing a middle-aged burn-out? He looks about 25 in Red Dragon and displays no weariness at all, no sense he's been through the ringer. He's perky, chipper "Hi! I'm an FBI agent!"
Francis Dolarhyde - A muscular, blond, 6'3" man with a hairlip. A quiet, powerhouse of a man uncomfortable around others and consumed by innner demons. Played originally by Tom Noonan. In this version?
Ralph Fiennes. A 5'10" weedy Englishman with a brown buzzcut hairdo and a small scar to indicate his hairlip.
So casting threw me. I love Red Dragon, it's one of the most compact, well written thrillers of recent times. Contains set-pieces to die for, expert characterisations and a sense of frustration in trying to catch Dolarhyde.
Manhunter, directed by Michael Mann in 1980-something, is a superb realisation of this book.
Sure, it's full of typical Mann-erisms like blue filters and artfully arranged shots but it does a good job of getting inside the characters and is underplayed.
Red Dragon is cheesy, OTT "And-here-is-a-plot-point" style that lacks any kind of sense of dread or urgency.
What I dont get is how they included most of the major points of the book, but drained them of any interest of excitement.
The opening of Manhunter has Graham and Crawford on a beach staring out to sea. Crawford is trying to convince Graham to come back and is met with hostility and repressed fear. When Crawford lays pictures of the families down and says "If you can't look anymore, I understand" - Graham takes an age to pick them up, refusing to turn them over until he's gathered himself.
Red Dragon? "Hi Crawford!" "Here are some pics" "Damn, they look like nice families"
There's no sense of "I dont want to do this but I have no choice", it's "I must stop this evil maniac because, goshdarnit, somebody has to".
In the book, Dolaryhde goes to the Brooklyn Musuem to eat the Blake painting, to consume The Dragon and take control of his destiny. He eats the painting and leaves, on his way out the security desk phone is ringing and he is trying to get out before the guard picks up the phone. It describes how everything goes into slow-motion as he tries to get out before the phone is picked up. A sense of drama and "will he/wont he?"
The movie? He scoffs the pic and just strolls out smiling.
Nice waste of potential.
And the ending?
Manhunter differs to the book but it works.
Book version: Dolaryde sets fire to his house, leaves Reba in there and blows his head off with a shotgun. She escapes, everything is resolved. Graham goes back to Florida to his family. A few days later, he's out in the dunes with his stepson and Dolarhyde appears from nowhere, drives a knife into his cheek before being killed. Graham is taken to hospital where Crawford explains that Dolarhyde blew the head off someone else and hid, making sure Reba got out alive and then came for Graham. There's a real shock when Dolarhyde appears with a knife, you think "How the ###?".
A potential for a damn good shock/suprise ending for the movie.
So what happens in Red Dragon?
The house burns, Reba escapes and Graham goes back to Florida.
The family is enjoying a quiet night and then Crawford gets a call saying it wasn't Dolarhyde that burned in the house.
He phones Graham to warn him, who has just gone into his house to see why his son hasn't come back out.
So the audience is aware that Dolarhyde is in there with the son as Graham goes in. You know he's not in any danger at all, so Dolarhyde appears and blah blah blah, they shoot each other and Graham's wife finishes off Dolarhyde.
That's exactly why Red Dragon doesn't work. There's no sense of surprise to any of it. Instead of having Dolaryhde appear from nowhere and BAM!, you get the standard "Don't go into the house!" set-up and happy ending.
Ralph Fiennes is horribly miscast in this. He's not bothered by his hairlip, wheras in the book and Manhunter, Dolarhyde covers his lip with his knuckle when talking and is shy. Fiennes is just "Hello! You like my tattoo?". In Manhunter, after sleeping with Reba, Dolarhyde lays there in the night and puts her hand over his disfigured mouth and quietly cries himself to sleep. There's a sense he's tortured about how he feels about her, how he cant believe someone doesn't find him repulsive.
Red Dragon? Nothing at all. They get it on and that's that.
Red Dragon is a bad remake of Manhunter and, worse than that, is a waste of bloody good source material.
Taken as non-related to the "Lecter Series", it's a 2nd rate thriller that does nothing new and adds nothing to the genre.
But bearing in mind it's the originator of the whole Lecter trilogy,it's a crime to have made such a lazy movie and squander every opportunity possible.
Avoid.
Quick capsule review: Terrible film, waste of good source material and a shoddy remake of the existing version.
Good things about it?
Emily Watson. I've seen her in Breaking The Waves and a couple of other movies and she continues to give good performances in otherwise bad films. Red Dragon is no exception.
Ted Tally, the screenwriter for Silence of The Lambs did this one, so I initially had high hopes for it. But I should have known it was going to be bad when I heard the casting for this one.
In the book, the character breakdowns are thus:
Will Graham - A man burnt out, weary from his experiences and haunted by previous cases. Enjoying his middle-aged seclusion in Florida with wife and stepchild. Originally played by William Peterson. Who is it this time?
Edward Norton. A good actor for sure, but playing a middle-aged burn-out? He looks about 25 in Red Dragon and displays no weariness at all, no sense he's been through the ringer. He's perky, chipper "Hi! I'm an FBI agent!"
Francis Dolarhyde - A muscular, blond, 6'3" man with a hairlip. A quiet, powerhouse of a man uncomfortable around others and consumed by innner demons. Played originally by Tom Noonan. In this version?
Ralph Fiennes. A 5'10" weedy Englishman with a brown buzzcut hairdo and a small scar to indicate his hairlip.
So casting threw me. I love Red Dragon, it's one of the most compact, well written thrillers of recent times. Contains set-pieces to die for, expert characterisations and a sense of frustration in trying to catch Dolarhyde.
Manhunter, directed by Michael Mann in 1980-something, is a superb realisation of this book.
Sure, it's full of typical Mann-erisms like blue filters and artfully arranged shots but it does a good job of getting inside the characters and is underplayed.
Red Dragon is cheesy, OTT "And-here-is-a-plot-point" style that lacks any kind of sense of dread or urgency.
What I dont get is how they included most of the major points of the book, but drained them of any interest of excitement.
The opening of Manhunter has Graham and Crawford on a beach staring out to sea. Crawford is trying to convince Graham to come back and is met with hostility and repressed fear. When Crawford lays pictures of the families down and says "If you can't look anymore, I understand" - Graham takes an age to pick them up, refusing to turn them over until he's gathered himself.
Red Dragon? "Hi Crawford!" "Here are some pics" "Damn, they look like nice families"
There's no sense of "I dont want to do this but I have no choice", it's "I must stop this evil maniac because, goshdarnit, somebody has to".
In the book, Dolaryhde goes to the Brooklyn Musuem to eat the Blake painting, to consume The Dragon and take control of his destiny. He eats the painting and leaves, on his way out the security desk phone is ringing and he is trying to get out before the guard picks up the phone. It describes how everything goes into slow-motion as he tries to get out before the phone is picked up. A sense of drama and "will he/wont he?"
The movie? He scoffs the pic and just strolls out smiling.
Nice waste of potential.
And the ending?
Manhunter differs to the book but it works.
Book version: Dolaryde sets fire to his house, leaves Reba in there and blows his head off with a shotgun. She escapes, everything is resolved. Graham goes back to Florida to his family. A few days later, he's out in the dunes with his stepson and Dolarhyde appears from nowhere, drives a knife into his cheek before being killed. Graham is taken to hospital where Crawford explains that Dolarhyde blew the head off someone else and hid, making sure Reba got out alive and then came for Graham. There's a real shock when Dolarhyde appears with a knife, you think "How the ###?".
A potential for a damn good shock/suprise ending for the movie.
So what happens in Red Dragon?
The house burns, Reba escapes and Graham goes back to Florida.
The family is enjoying a quiet night and then Crawford gets a call saying it wasn't Dolarhyde that burned in the house.
He phones Graham to warn him, who has just gone into his house to see why his son hasn't come back out.
So the audience is aware that Dolarhyde is in there with the son as Graham goes in. You know he's not in any danger at all, so Dolarhyde appears and blah blah blah, they shoot each other and Graham's wife finishes off Dolarhyde.
That's exactly why Red Dragon doesn't work. There's no sense of surprise to any of it. Instead of having Dolaryhde appear from nowhere and BAM!, you get the standard "Don't go into the house!" set-up and happy ending.
Ralph Fiennes is horribly miscast in this. He's not bothered by his hairlip, wheras in the book and Manhunter, Dolarhyde covers his lip with his knuckle when talking and is shy. Fiennes is just "Hello! You like my tattoo?". In Manhunter, after sleeping with Reba, Dolarhyde lays there in the night and puts her hand over his disfigured mouth and quietly cries himself to sleep. There's a sense he's tortured about how he feels about her, how he cant believe someone doesn't find him repulsive.
Red Dragon? Nothing at all. They get it on and that's that.
Red Dragon is a bad remake of Manhunter and, worse than that, is a waste of bloody good source material.
Taken as non-related to the "Lecter Series", it's a 2nd rate thriller that does nothing new and adds nothing to the genre.
But bearing in mind it's the originator of the whole Lecter trilogy,it's a crime to have made such a lazy movie and squander every opportunity possible.
Avoid.
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The sagacious one wrote:
>
> Porno: with Keanu Reeves as Begbie?
>
> No!
Noooooo!!!
Actually, it would probably be more expensive to get the oringinal stars now.....
>
> Porno: with Keanu Reeves as Begbie?
>
> No!
Noooooo!!!
Actually, it would probably be more expensive to get the oringinal stars now.....
But then he'd have to say:
"He is Ralph Fien-ning his methods..."
It just doesn't work, does it?
"He is Ralph Fien-ning his methods..."
It just doesn't work, does it?
And he doesn't insist his name is pronounced "Raife" when it quite clearly spells "Ralph"
What a pretentious assball
What a pretentious assball
I'll agree with that. Haven't seen Noonan or whatever his name is, but he has the big plus that he was never in the English Patient.
Yep, this is what I was saying. Only with more words and stuff.
Red Dragon is Manhunter for people that don't want to think a little.
Lector in Manhunter "He's a very shy boy Will"
Lector in Red Dragon "Look for someone with tattoos, maybe a facial disfigurement and dentures"
Hello?
Why investigate at all, why not just examine dentist records?
Muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh
Go buy Manhunter, it's better. And Tom Noonan is a better Dolarhyde than Ralph Fiennes.
Red Dragon is Manhunter for people that don't want to think a little.
Lector in Manhunter "He's a very shy boy Will"
Lector in Red Dragon "Look for someone with tattoos, maybe a facial disfigurement and dentures"
Hello?
Why investigate at all, why not just examine dentist records?
Muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh
Go buy Manhunter, it's better. And Tom Noonan is a better Dolarhyde than Ralph Fiennes.
On Monday I saw Manhunter, on Wednesday I saw Red Dragon. I haven’t read the book.
I didn’t dislike Red Dragon, I thought it was a watch-able movie, but Manhunter is superior in many, almost every aspect.
I’d agree that the film was miscast, though I didn’t really have a problem with Norton. The newspaper reporter was awful though, in comparison. In Red Dragon he comes across as a slob, but in Manhunter he seems much smarter, and a more interesting character. Oh, and in Manhunter Graham is so annoyed at the reporter, he throws him onto the car, rather than pushing him against it. Also, damn, I’m useless with character names, Will Graham’s wife, she was better looking in Manhunter.
Emily Watson and Harvey Keitel are good in Red Dragon though. Keitel doesn’t do anything special, but he’s there, and how can you not like Harv? But Emily Watson makes a convincing blind woman.
Anyway, onto the detail in the film, spoilers here and the like, no doubt.
Red Dragon seemed not to understand Will Graham’s way of getting into the killer’s head. We had Norton almost seeing through the eye of the killer, rather than getting into his way of thinking, but then that angle was dropped anyway, and Norton went to see Lektor (is that spelt differently in the movies, I know it has a 'k' in Manhunter, you see it on a file).
Actually, I reckon that was the main difference between the two Will Graham's. Norton was along for the ride, and got given all the answers. He was only brought in to the investigation to get Hannibal on side. In Manhunter Will Graham is needed because of the way he thinks, and it's his thinking that solves it.
Basically Hopkins was over used. Manhunter was superior as Graham figured it out for himself, with the tapes, but in Red Dragon Hannibal practically had to tell him.
Manhunter's ending was better, as it used 'In Ga Gadda Da Vida' rather than the 'oh no he's going after the family' lark, but I understand that was in the book.
Still, it was crap to see Norton shouting at the kid like Dolarhyde's gran did. I didn't like that angle at all. The mother figure obsession thing has been done so many times before, and better, with films such as Psycho, for instance.
***POO I lost the rest of this post. Didn't save properly.***
Anyway, I'd rather people queue up to go see Red Dragon than xXx or MBFGW, but Manhunter is superior to them all.
I didn’t dislike Red Dragon, I thought it was a watch-able movie, but Manhunter is superior in many, almost every aspect.
I’d agree that the film was miscast, though I didn’t really have a problem with Norton. The newspaper reporter was awful though, in comparison. In Red Dragon he comes across as a slob, but in Manhunter he seems much smarter, and a more interesting character. Oh, and in Manhunter Graham is so annoyed at the reporter, he throws him onto the car, rather than pushing him against it. Also, damn, I’m useless with character names, Will Graham’s wife, she was better looking in Manhunter.
Emily Watson and Harvey Keitel are good in Red Dragon though. Keitel doesn’t do anything special, but he’s there, and how can you not like Harv? But Emily Watson makes a convincing blind woman.
Anyway, onto the detail in the film, spoilers here and the like, no doubt.
Red Dragon seemed not to understand Will Graham’s way of getting into the killer’s head. We had Norton almost seeing through the eye of the killer, rather than getting into his way of thinking, but then that angle was dropped anyway, and Norton went to see Lektor (is that spelt differently in the movies, I know it has a 'k' in Manhunter, you see it on a file).
Actually, I reckon that was the main difference between the two Will Graham's. Norton was along for the ride, and got given all the answers. He was only brought in to the investigation to get Hannibal on side. In Manhunter Will Graham is needed because of the way he thinks, and it's his thinking that solves it.
Basically Hopkins was over used. Manhunter was superior as Graham figured it out for himself, with the tapes, but in Red Dragon Hannibal practically had to tell him.
Manhunter's ending was better, as it used 'In Ga Gadda Da Vida' rather than the 'oh no he's going after the family' lark, but I understand that was in the book.
Still, it was crap to see Norton shouting at the kid like Dolarhyde's gran did. I didn't like that angle at all. The mother figure obsession thing has been done so many times before, and better, with films such as Psycho, for instance.
***POO I lost the rest of this post. Didn't save properly.***
Anyway, I'd rather people queue up to go see Red Dragon than xXx or MBFGW, but Manhunter is superior to them all.
Manhunter: class
Red Dragon: as above without the cl
Hopkin's Hannibal is too old to be taken seriously...
Red Dragon: as above without the cl
Hopkin's Hannibal is too old to be taken seriously...
What "huge faults" does Manhunter have, and how does Red Dragon hold attention from start to finish?
And as for Lecter not featuring enough in it, have you read the novel? He's in the movie more than the book, it's a Hopkins vanity vehicle.
And as for Lecter not featuring enough in it, have you read the novel? He's in the movie more than the book, it's a Hopkins vanity vehicle.
What?
Hopkins has turned Lector into a screen legend.
One of the main faults with Red Dragon(I only saw it yesterday) is that Lector doesn't feature enough in it.
Manhunter has huge faults, and fails to hold the audience's attention for the whole movie, whereas Red Dragon is gripping from start to finish.
And don't get me started about Hannibal. It's a good movie. A little over worked, but you couldn't possibly refer to it in any negative way. Could you?!
Oh wait, you already have......
Hopkins has turned Lector into a screen legend.
One of the main faults with Red Dragon(I only saw it yesterday) is that Lector doesn't feature enough in it.
Manhunter has huge faults, and fails to hold the audience's attention for the whole movie, whereas Red Dragon is gripping from start to finish.
And don't get me started about Hannibal. It's a good movie. A little over worked, but you couldn't possibly refer to it in any negative way. Could you?!
Oh wait, you already have......
Cox is the one who is the balllicker!
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