Viewing Thread:
"Do some parents WANT their children abducted?"

Okay, so the thread title is a little OTT, but you do have to wonder sometimes.

It is now three weeks to the day that Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman were abducted, and kids that we don't know are still knocking on our door asking various questions.

My friend Mark was round today, and as he left just 20 minutes ago, two little girls - no more than 8 or 9 years old - came running down the path from two doors away, stopped at the door and asked me if I wanted to hear them sing. I said 'no thank you' and shut the door.

Now I have a healthy dislike of children - I've hated kids since I was practically a kid myself, whether it be babies or youngsters; in fact I can only tolerate mid-to-late teens onwards. I can't stand having them around me - I get away from them as soon as I possibly can - and I have absolutely no intention of ever having kids myself. But having said that, I could never actually harm them.

Still, I have to wonder why - with all that happens - parents still let their kids go out alone, or go knocking on the doors of total strangers. Apart from Holly and Jessica, we've also had Sarah Payne. Even older kids aren't safe - we still don't know what's happened to Amanda 'Milly' Dowler.

We live on a large council estate, and on any given day you can walk around and see any number of 'strange' people, who I personally wouldn't want to know - let alone trust with kids. I know you're not supposed to judge a book by its cover and so on, but let's face it - we all do, and we've all been given 'the creeps' by strange-looking people at one time or another.

We've also had young kids knock asking us if we want to buy various trinkets etc. Now, if I were to say, "Yes okay, come in while I get some money", I doubt a young kid is going to think twice about coming into my house if he/she thinks there's some cash in it.

Going back to the girls wanting to sing - that's two little girls, approaching a 6' 3" guy who they'd never seen or spoken to before. My friend had gone, and there was no-one else around. If I were paedophile, that's an open invitation isn't it? I could have grabbed them - easy target. They could have screamed, but no-one would have paid any attention because the kids round here are always screaming. And by the time anyone realised, it would be too late.

I know you can't keep kids in and stop them playing, but for crying out loud, these kids need to have some education and discipline drummed into them - and parents need to take responsibility for them.

There's a woman across the way from us who has abuot six kids, all young. They're out playing every day during the school holidays and make a lot of noise. Then all of a sudden, it goes quiet. Or all of a sudden you'll hear a scream, and then crying. Not once has either of the parents come out to see what's happening, where the kids are, or if they're okay.

A lot of parents these days give the impression that they don't care where their kids are or what they're doing, as long as they're not under their feet and getting in their way. When we do hear them speaking to the kids, they're usually yelling at them about something or other.

I'm not suggesting for one second that Holly and Jessica's parents were bad parents, but the fact that even after this tragedy young girls are still out alone, unsupervised and knocking on the doors of strangers, suggests to me that there ARE many bad parents out there.

They seem to ignore and forget about their kids on a daily basis - yet were such a tragedy to happen to them, they'd be on TV sobbing their hearts out, their kids suddenly becoming the centre of their universe, and blaming the Government for not doing enough to protect their kids.

I know that sounds cold, but I hope those of you that have kids will know what I'm getting at. Yes, kids should be able to go out safely, without parents worrying about these monsters. But the fact is, they can't. These sickos do exist, and too many parents these days don't take responsibility for their kids, being too eager to pass the buck to someone else. "It's the Government's fault for not doing enough to lock up the perverts."

Sure, there is a responsibilty on the Government's behalf to do something more about it. But the bulk of responsibility for the safety of children lies solely with the parents. If you are not prepared to take that responsibility, you have no business bringing a child into this world.

I share the same attitude as yourself when it comes to kids wookie. I cant stand them, especially these days when a good sense of manners and good behaviour have been thrown out of the door, probably because the kid was conceived to get some more government benefits.

I see these kids being abducted on TV, i have to be honest here, i dont care. Call me heartless or whatever, but i don't know these people, so im not that bothered when their kids go missing. Maybe you understand more when you are a parent, but hopefully for me i will never have that insight.

Just maybe a week or two ago i opened the door to an 8 year old girl looking for the betterware book to deliver back to her mum, i saw her fat mum sitting in the taxi she drives across the street. But i also noticed she drove slightly ahead of them, i could easily have covered her mouth and dragged her inside. Her mum wouldnt have a clue where she would have gone, and by the time the police came, im sure the girl would be gone.

It may not be the fault of the parents all the time, but they have to take responsibility for their kids sometimes, if they don't, who will?

Belldandy wrote:
If someone
> is being abducted or is abducted then any chance they get is probably
> going to be their only chance and in that situation you need to be
> lethal and aim to take out the abductor or at least incapcitate them.
> Eyes, groin, neck - all vulnerable.
>
> However, I doubt any of us, even people like me without children,
> wants to see kids being shown how to do this kind of thing.

I agree, but in such a sick society, maybe it is the lesser of the two evils......

<- Pappa Lazarou -> wrote:
> Perhaps we could train them in the use of none-lethal weapons such as
> a kubotan, or even any sticks found on the floor. It wouldn't be
> difficult.

Wouldn't work. Doesn't matter if you're an adult or a kid, if you're abducted then you've probably got no weapon of any sort apart from your own hands and legs.

The trouble from then on is that non-lethal doesn't work. If someone is being abducted or is abducted then any chance they get is probably going to be their only chance and in that situation you need to be lethal and aim to take out the abductor or at least incapcitate them. Eyes, groin, neck - all vulnerable.

However, I doubt any of us, even people like me without children, wants to see kids being shown how to do this kind of thing.

As for the lights on the car thing - they showed you where the wires are on most american cars - they were on the left and right hand sides of the trunk, either beneath a hatch that opened or at the edge of the boot liner that lifted up, you just pull them and the lights die.

~~Belldandy~~

i realise those aren't your ideas belldandy, but to be honest I find them to be unlikely to work.

A child (unless it is a particularly gifted one) wouldn't know what wire to pull on a car rear-light array (i doubt most adults would). And as for the child getting out of holds, I posted a message earlier saying that self defence should be taught in schools, but even I have to admit it unlikely a child could do anything at all to escape an adults grasp.

The only thing likely to work would be something truly nasty like biting their face or groin. Maybe these are the tactics we should be teaching children? Not a nice thought though.

Perhaps we could train them in the use of none-lethal weapons such as a kubotan, or even any sticks found on the floor. It wouldn't be difficult.

Like somebody has said before, and it also appears true in the case of the Soham case, children are most likely too be abducted/abused/killed by a person they know. Nearly every police and law enforcement agency in the world agrees on that.

This makes the current media frenzy over child safety rather pointless as there is little that can be done to guard against a "trusted" person doing something.

Last week on Fox News (Anybody see it ?) there was a company in America featured that parents could send their kids to for the day that showed them how to escape from an abductor or draw attention to themselves. Whether a child's going to remember it is maybe debatable, but even so what was shown was good stuff - things like how anyone can in the trunk of a car can disable a vehicles back lights (this increases the chance of police stopping a car), how to break a hold (a kinda flick of the wrist maneuver that utilises the way our arms work to make it possible for kids to do it).

Now admittedly, this may be extreme, but if it saves one life then it's good and I think we should do more in this country for children apart from telling them not to talk to strangers !

~~Belldandy~~

Meka Dragon wrote:
> Every now and again the greasy mother will look around and shout "Oi!
> Tracey! Get back here!"

I have seen this so many times, it's unbelievable. And of course, if anything happened to the children, the parents would accept no responsibilty (assuming the mother/father acted just like you mention above Meka)

You must be real careful with your kids, huh?

It's amazing how often you see little children, like 2 and 3 year olds, walking around town WAY behind their parents. Every now and again the greasy mother will look around and shout "Oi! Tracey! Get back here!" I always think that anyone could snatch a child easily on a busy street, right in the centre of town. My kids only walk when holding my hand, or if on reins, because I don't want them abducted. I'm kinda fond of them.

BUT you can't keep them in forever. I used to walk 3 miles into town when I was 10, with friends. I doubt I'd let Malibu or Georgia do that, but you can hardly deny them going to the local playing fields, and you can't be with them all the time, they need some freedom, or they'll resent you.

Personally I reckon the answer is getting your children to carry tracking devices. I mean, you can have a chip implanted in your dog or cat in case that goes missing, surely you can put a tracker and panic button on a watch easily enough?

Education is a large part of it too. You've got to teach your children not to trust anyone, and sheltering them from news of other abductions certainly doesn't help. I'd rather my children be scared and safe than care-free, and likely to talk to strangers.

Mr.Snuggly wrote:
> Even worse are the parents who dress their kids up like adults, and
> enter them into those kiddy competitions. How that can possibly be
> justified as moralistic is totally beyond me.

They use their children to achieve what they never could...and in an American's case, they will stop for nothing, and no expense is spared. Sad really, using their children as aquirers of trophies they would never get alone..

Of course, they deny it, but hey.

People under a certain IQ shouldn't be allowed to have kids at all. Goaty's right about the sense of community not being there any more, and a complete lack of safety stuff on kid's TV - you'll be lucky if you get one ad of that lad being hit by a car, and that's it. No 'Tell your parents where you are', no 'Don't talk to strangers', nothing.

Even worse are the parents who dress their kids up like adults, and enter them into those kiddy competitions. How that can possibly be justified as moralistic is totally beyond me.

One thing I notice a lot of, especially round my way, are the number of kids out late at night.
I was never allowed out past a certain time when I was a kid, or if I was then it was outside my house.
Not only that, but there was a sense of community - a whole bunch of kids that played together, all the parents knew each other and someone always knew where we were.

Wheras now, I'm seeing kids (under 10) out on the streets at 9pm and later, and that's down to the parents not taking an active interest in the welfare of their children.
I'm not saying anyone deserves to have their kids abducted, that is one of the worst nightmares I can think of, nor am I saying "Well if you don't know where your kids are then..." because I think, however reckless, kids should be able to be outside at midnight without fear of being murdered.

There doesn't seem to be any government-driven awareness of safety for kids.
I remember public service announcements as a kid on the tv. "Charlie says..." that warned you about strangers, playing with matches, not telling your parents where you were going etc etc.
That stuck in my head and I never strayed too far.

I don't know if child-snatching is a recent phenomenon, it must have gone on when I was a kid but I just dont remember hearing about it.
No sense of community anymore, a large number of parents that just don't care where their kids are as long as they ain't screaming indoors disturbing Eastenders.

I have no clue or answer as to how to rectify this situation.
All I do know is that, however cynical I may be and however much I dislike children - I wouldn't wish recent events on any parents - however slack they may be.