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“You cannot do jump effectively in a first person prospective” – Strafex
Weather you agree with what Strafex was saying or not this statement proved to me how many closed minded individuals there is (no offence). Strafex is one person who is against change; he doesn’t think Donkey Kong belongs in a 3D world, more a 3D, linear prospective a.k.a Crash Bandicoot and he doesn’t believe that Metroid belongs in a first person prospective. It isn’t that he is against new and fresh ideas to refresh the game but he believes that a sequel should be true to the main dynamics of the game. So a Metroid sequel should feature jumping, exploring and shooting, if it doesn’t feature all these three effectively then it isn’t a true Metroid sequel. I’m not arguing with Strafex on the Metroid front, when the game comes out Metroid fans might well believe the game should have been third person, he has a far deeper insight to the game than I do but what I don’t like is his attitude to it all.
No it isn’t bitter or nasty, it is simple “Metroid can’t work in first person”, well that is where I disagree. Nintendo trains the future designers up by telling them that use your imagination to create what you want and then try and make it work. The main argument from Strafex is that in First Person you can shoot effectively, you can explore just as well but as for jumping well no, it won’t work. He explained both Turok and Quake attempted jumping and failed, I know that the jumping in these games are far from perfect, but because it has failed in the past doesn’t mean it will fail in the future. There is many ways to make people jump in first person mode effectively and most small minds such as mine can’t even comprehend. The best way to make first person jumping effective is by looking how people jump, that is first person and so therefore if we can mimic a realistic jump then we can succeed in a first person jumping game.
Well one mistake the other games made was the characters arms, would you still be holding a gun in the same position if you jumped, of course not to make a successful jump in first person would have to be removed, it may be graphical but it is one of those graphical moments that needs to look right to feel right. Second off is balance, we actually feel how far we jump, in a game we only see not feel and so how can we judge a successful jump in a game? Well recently analogue buttons have come into play so the harder you press the higher you jump and depending how far you move the analogue stick as the same time the further you jump as well. It is not impossible for developers to make a first person jump well but who will honestly put the effort in to do that? Nintendo would that is who, they have the time, money and effort and it is important to them that a game is done right when released. So Metroid being made by Nintendo tells me this will match and even beat what a third person Metroid could do, well the possibility of that happening is there it can be done the fact is it probably wont. Jumping was the only admittedly minor grumble at the E3 games show and so Strafex would be right that going into third person for the jumping bits may be the right thing to do. But that doesn’t say jumping can’t be done as well if not better than in first person than third.
On to Donkey Kong briefly, I agree with Strafex that Donkey Kong 64 would have been better if it was more like Crash Bandicoot but again I don’t think it can’t be done in a 3D world game. Yes they failed before as jumping has in first person but I think it can be done, imagination is the best key to gaming, forget everything that has happened before and remember where there is a will there’s a way.
Dringo.
Weather you agree with what Strafex was saying or not this statement proved to me how many closed minded individuals there is (no offence). Strafex is one person who is against change; he doesn’t think Donkey Kong belongs in a 3D world, more a 3D, linear prospective a.k.a Crash Bandicoot and he doesn’t believe that Metroid belongs in a first person prospective. It isn’t that he is against new and fresh ideas to refresh the game but he believes that a sequel should be true to the main dynamics of the game. So a Metroid sequel should feature jumping, exploring and shooting, if it doesn’t feature all these three effectively then it isn’t a true Metroid sequel. I’m not arguing with Strafex on the Metroid front, when the game comes out Metroid fans might well believe the game should have been third person, he has a far deeper insight to the game than I do but what I don’t like is his attitude to it all.
No it isn’t bitter or nasty, it is simple “Metroid can’t work in first person”, well that is where I disagree. Nintendo trains the future designers up by telling them that use your imagination to create what you want and then try and make it work. The main argument from Strafex is that in First Person you can shoot effectively, you can explore just as well but as for jumping well no, it won’t work. He explained both Turok and Quake attempted jumping and failed, I know that the jumping in these games are far from perfect, but because it has failed in the past doesn’t mean it will fail in the future. There is many ways to make people jump in first person mode effectively and most small minds such as mine can’t even comprehend. The best way to make first person jumping effective is by looking how people jump, that is first person and so therefore if we can mimic a realistic jump then we can succeed in a first person jumping game.
Well one mistake the other games made was the characters arms, would you still be holding a gun in the same position if you jumped, of course not to make a successful jump in first person would have to be removed, it may be graphical but it is one of those graphical moments that needs to look right to feel right. Second off is balance, we actually feel how far we jump, in a game we only see not feel and so how can we judge a successful jump in a game? Well recently analogue buttons have come into play so the harder you press the higher you jump and depending how far you move the analogue stick as the same time the further you jump as well. It is not impossible for developers to make a first person jump well but who will honestly put the effort in to do that? Nintendo would that is who, they have the time, money and effort and it is important to them that a game is done right when released. So Metroid being made by Nintendo tells me this will match and even beat what a third person Metroid could do, well the possibility of that happening is there it can be done the fact is it probably wont. Jumping was the only admittedly minor grumble at the E3 games show and so Strafex would be right that going into third person for the jumping bits may be the right thing to do. But that doesn’t say jumping can’t be done as well if not better than in first person than third.
On to Donkey Kong briefly, I agree with Strafex that Donkey Kong 64 would have been better if it was more like Crash Bandicoot but again I don’t think it can’t be done in a 3D world game. Yes they failed before as jumping has in first person but I think it can be done, imagination is the best key to gaming, forget everything that has happened before and remember where there is a will there’s a way.
Dringo.
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I've never really played Super Metroid much so i'm just looking forward to a good Nintendo shooter.
I like jam in my porridge.
And Prime will have 3rd person parts involved, which I beleive is used for the things like the grappling laser, I can't imagine trying to do that in 1st person..
And Prime will have 3rd person parts involved, which I beleive is used for the things like the grappling laser, I can't imagine trying to do that in 1st person..
all this talk of jumping has given me a headache....
...anyway, it greatly depends on the level of jumping -
"platform" ie hovering platforms, or jumping over crevices is not good in fps
"steps" waist height blocks work fine
it depends how the jumping works - PC doesn't work too bad, as in real life you can control your view concentrating on the edge - ie as you approach you begin to look towards your feet, keep the distance in mind and jump as you reach the end.
However a controller limits the speed with which you can change your view, so third perspective for jumping is probably advisable for a game like Metroid.
BUT for games like UNREAL TOURNAMENT, HALF LIFE, FRONTLINE, QUAKE, DOOM, GOLDENEYE, PERFECT DARK etc where the emphasis is on killing and "puzzling", with killing being a majority, jumping is less important if not a key skill for Unreal T and Counterstrike etc.
I just hope the game is good...
...anyway, it greatly depends on the level of jumping -
"platform" ie hovering platforms, or jumping over crevices is not good in fps
"steps" waist height blocks work fine
it depends how the jumping works - PC doesn't work too bad, as in real life you can control your view concentrating on the edge - ie as you approach you begin to look towards your feet, keep the distance in mind and jump as you reach the end.
However a controller limits the speed with which you can change your view, so third perspective for jumping is probably advisable for a game like Metroid.
BUT for games like UNREAL TOURNAMENT, HALF LIFE, FRONTLINE, QUAKE, DOOM, GOLDENEYE, PERFECT DARK etc where the emphasis is on killing and "puzzling", with killing being a majority, jumping is less important if not a key skill for Unreal T and Counterstrike etc.
I just hope the game is good...
Well, we're never gonna get a FPS with good jumping if we don't try...
If Metroid Prime offers a new idea to the problem, it can only be a good thing, a step in the right direction if you will...
If Metroid Prime offers a new idea to the problem, it can only be a good thing, a step in the right direction if you will...
Hey, I've just noticed Sonics a notable!
Congrats -you've been here for yonks and done loads - you deserved it!
Congrats -you've been here for yonks and done loads - you deserved it!
I agree completely with Strafex...
Jumping has never worked in the first person- look at any PC FPS game that uses it!
Some games aren't suited to 3d
One of the big point about Super Metroid is the jumping- which won't work in first person mode. That doesn't mean the new Prime won't be good- it will just have to have a different structure or emphasis- maybe puzzles over jumping etc?
Oh, and my view is not that of a closed mind. I'm all open to change... but no all change is good!
Sonic
Jumping has never worked in the first person- look at any PC FPS game that uses it!
Some games aren't suited to 3d
One of the big point about Super Metroid is the jumping- which won't work in first person mode. That doesn't mean the new Prime won't be good- it will just have to have a different structure or emphasis- maybe puzzles over jumping etc?
Oh, and my view is not that of a closed mind. I'm all open to change... but no all change is good!
Sonic
Meka Dragon wrote:
> Half the problem with jumping in FPS comes from players jumping before
> they reach the edge of the platform, as they can't see where it is,
> and then failing to make the next platform and falling to their
> death.
>
> This could be fixed with a Zelda-esque auto-jump. You run to the end
> of the platform, and it jumps for you. Simple.
Yeah, that should be a feature that FPS's use more often.
A well thought out idea, but an auto-jump still doesn't do Samus' potential skills justice.
Proper jumping can only be done in third person - likewise, proper aiming can't be done in third person. A Zelda style lock on or an auto-aim can make do, but to aim properly (in 3 dimensions that is), you need to go into first person.
> I have to say, I loved Super Metroid, but I'm not a bit fan of FPS, so
> I'm not sure how I'll like Metriod Prime.
>
> Would we be happier if Nintendo had taken an adapted Mario engine
> (because if anyone can jump, it's him), and stuck Metroid-esque
> graphics into it?
Well not quite. Combine both third and first person views for a Jet Force Gemini style mix and match where you get the best of both worlds!
> At least it's something different. As I said, I'm not a fan of FPS,
> but from impressions of those that have played it, it does sound very
> promising. The only question remains; Is it a good Metroid game, or a
> good FPS?
Well it's a bit Metroid, but not quite as Metroid as I'd have liked.
Still, it wouldn't have been right if Prime was better than it's Nes, Gameboy, Snes and GBA sequels, would it? :-D
> Half the problem with jumping in FPS comes from players jumping before
> they reach the edge of the platform, as they can't see where it is,
> and then failing to make the next platform and falling to their
> death.
>
> This could be fixed with a Zelda-esque auto-jump. You run to the end
> of the platform, and it jumps for you. Simple.
Yeah, that should be a feature that FPS's use more often.
A well thought out idea, but an auto-jump still doesn't do Samus' potential skills justice.
Proper jumping can only be done in third person - likewise, proper aiming can't be done in third person. A Zelda style lock on or an auto-aim can make do, but to aim properly (in 3 dimensions that is), you need to go into first person.
> I have to say, I loved Super Metroid, but I'm not a bit fan of FPS, so
> I'm not sure how I'll like Metriod Prime.
>
> Would we be happier if Nintendo had taken an adapted Mario engine
> (because if anyone can jump, it's him), and stuck Metroid-esque
> graphics into it?
Well not quite. Combine both third and first person views for a Jet Force Gemini style mix and match where you get the best of both worlds!
> At least it's something different. As I said, I'm not a fan of FPS,
> but from impressions of those that have played it, it does sound very
> promising. The only question remains; Is it a good Metroid game, or a
> good FPS?
Well it's a bit Metroid, but not quite as Metroid as I'd have liked.
Still, it wouldn't have been right if Prime was better than it's Nes, Gameboy, Snes and GBA sequels, would it? :-D
I'm gonna have to go with Dringo on the basis that if we never try something (just for a purely coincidental example lets say jumping in FPS) we'll never be able to do it! And I must say, jumping in FPS isn't ALL as bad as Turok... Half Life had sections navigating your way over and in between lasers, if you blew a single one you set off nuke and died! the lasers criss crossed all over the shop and you had to do tones of perfect jumping to get through! Although the quicksave feature meant it didn't get irritating...
Also, I reckon the Donkey Kong series has gone a bit astry... not really in terms of the gameplay... for once I'm gonna go a bit superficial... it didn't really have a Dk atmosphere... there were some secrets to be found, but nothing when compared to games such as DKC and especially DKC3 which had a whole extra world full of secrets, and each level had something like 2 bonus barrels so you had to collect bonus coins to get the right vehicles to get you over to the secret orld... or something...
Anyway, the point is DK64 didn't even seem to try to match the DKC series in terms of secrets and replay value... Really what a 3D DK game should have is less limitations (in terms of where you can go, especially on your friends like that rhino dude...), more secrets, more levels that are less littered with 100s of easy collectables, and more with a few harder to find ones to give some challenge... That's what I reckon... That's what I think anyway...
Also, I reckon the Donkey Kong series has gone a bit astry... not really in terms of the gameplay... for once I'm gonna go a bit superficial... it didn't really have a Dk atmosphere... there were some secrets to be found, but nothing when compared to games such as DKC and especially DKC3 which had a whole extra world full of secrets, and each level had something like 2 bonus barrels so you had to collect bonus coins to get the right vehicles to get you over to the secret orld... or something...
Anyway, the point is DK64 didn't even seem to try to match the DKC series in terms of secrets and replay value... Really what a 3D DK game should have is less limitations (in terms of where you can go, especially on your friends like that rhino dude...), more secrets, more levels that are less littered with 100s of easy collectables, and more with a few harder to find ones to give some challenge... That's what I reckon... That's what I think anyway...
Half the problem with jumping in FPS comes from players jumping before they reach the edge of the platform, as they can't see where it is, and then failing to make the next platform and falling to their death.
This could be fixed with a Zelda-esque auto-jump. You run to the end of the platform, and it jumps for you. Simple.
I have to say, I loved Super Metroid, but I'm not a bit fan of FPS, so I'm not sure how I'll like Metriod Prime.
Would we be happier if Nintendo had taken an adapted Mario engine (because if anyone can jump, it's him), and stuck Metroid-esque graphics into it?
At least it's something different. As I said, I'm not a fan of FPS, but from impressions of those that have played it, it does sound very promising. The only question remains; Is it a good Metroid game, or a good FPS?
This could be fixed with a Zelda-esque auto-jump. You run to the end of the platform, and it jumps for you. Simple.
I have to say, I loved Super Metroid, but I'm not a bit fan of FPS, so I'm not sure how I'll like Metriod Prime.
Would we be happier if Nintendo had taken an adapted Mario engine (because if anyone can jump, it's him), and stuck Metroid-esque graphics into it?
At least it's something different. As I said, I'm not a fan of FPS, but from impressions of those that have played it, it does sound very promising. The only question remains; Is it a good Metroid game, or a good FPS?
Dringo wrote:
> Arghhhh closed minded people. If i worked for Nintendo i'd prove you
> all wrong.
Making a FPS platformer? Dr Duck put it in pure simple words to show how it doesn't work.
> For christ sake strafex Metroid is old, they've got the plot and
> storyline and re-made it to the next generation.
So is Zelda, Mario World and Donkey Kong Country.
Yet people haven't forgotten them. Nostalgia is a powerful thing.
Many Snes owners hold Super Metroid in regard as the best Snes game ever - even better than Zelda!
Yes it isn't the same
> as the SNES version but i dont honestly care because it will be better than
> anyone can imagine
You've not seen my imagination! :-D (it'll still be alright though)
, is Mario Tennis like Mario 64... no! Is Paper
> Mario anything like Mario 64 GOD NO!!!! The fact is it is the new look
> for samus, you now have the ability to play from her P.O.V surly a
> true Metroid fan would see that they get to try a new experience with
> their chosen character!
Actually, I was sort of hoping for a METROID game.
Besides, I don't want a game that's ALL third person (because then you can't aim or look around properly), but I wanted a game where you could switch between views at your will, play things your own way.
Retro wasn't capable of merging views to get the best of both worlds.
They've done a fine job with the first person view, it's just they now won't be able to include everything that makes Metroid, Metroid.
> Yes one day Samus will return in third person but what we have is the
> ability to experience the world of brinstar etc...
World of Brinstar... Brinstar is an underground section of the Planet Zebes - hardly a world! And you say you know your Metroid! ;-D
in a way we never
> previously imagined. A new look on it, jumping may not look or feel or
> play as effectivly (although as i insist it can) but then this is a
> unique opertunity delivered to us to relive a metroid game as close to
> the originals as possible in a first person view...
"Super Metroid 3D" would include a first person view.
You can switch to it when you need it.
That was you get to look and aim but you can switch back to third person view when you need to go platforming - you get the best out of all worlds!
a new way of life
> for metroid and for that i will like it... Yep it isn't Super Metroid
> 3D but like the Celshaded Legend of Zelda we are getting our favourite
> game with a whole new twist.
There is one difference. Celda is classic Zelda with a different graphical style - fair enough, the gameplay is touched up but generally unchanged from the winning formula.
Metroid Prime is basically a cut down version of the Metroid Prime I "envisioned". Which is fair enough - Retro are only human and Metroid Prime will be a good game for what it is, it just won't be half the game it could've been had it been "Super Metroid 3D".
> Arghhhh closed minded people. If i worked for Nintendo i'd prove you
> all wrong.
Making a FPS platformer? Dr Duck put it in pure simple words to show how it doesn't work.
> For christ sake strafex Metroid is old, they've got the plot and
> storyline and re-made it to the next generation.
So is Zelda, Mario World and Donkey Kong Country.
Yet people haven't forgotten them. Nostalgia is a powerful thing.
Many Snes owners hold Super Metroid in regard as the best Snes game ever - even better than Zelda!
Yes it isn't the same
> as the SNES version but i dont honestly care because it will be better than
> anyone can imagine
You've not seen my imagination! :-D (it'll still be alright though)
, is Mario Tennis like Mario 64... no! Is Paper
> Mario anything like Mario 64 GOD NO!!!! The fact is it is the new look
> for samus, you now have the ability to play from her P.O.V surly a
> true Metroid fan would see that they get to try a new experience with
> their chosen character!
Actually, I was sort of hoping for a METROID game.
Besides, I don't want a game that's ALL third person (because then you can't aim or look around properly), but I wanted a game where you could switch between views at your will, play things your own way.
Retro wasn't capable of merging views to get the best of both worlds.
They've done a fine job with the first person view, it's just they now won't be able to include everything that makes Metroid, Metroid.
> Yes one day Samus will return in third person but what we have is the
> ability to experience the world of brinstar etc...
World of Brinstar... Brinstar is an underground section of the Planet Zebes - hardly a world! And you say you know your Metroid! ;-D
in a way we never
> previously imagined. A new look on it, jumping may not look or feel or
> play as effectivly (although as i insist it can) but then this is a
> unique opertunity delivered to us to relive a metroid game as close to
> the originals as possible in a first person view...
"Super Metroid 3D" would include a first person view.
You can switch to it when you need it.
That was you get to look and aim but you can switch back to third person view when you need to go platforming - you get the best out of all worlds!
a new way of life
> for metroid and for that i will like it... Yep it isn't Super Metroid
> 3D but like the Celshaded Legend of Zelda we are getting our favourite
> game with a whole new twist.
There is one difference. Celda is classic Zelda with a different graphical style - fair enough, the gameplay is touched up but generally unchanged from the winning formula.
Metroid Prime is basically a cut down version of the Metroid Prime I "envisioned". Which is fair enough - Retro are only human and Metroid Prime will be a good game for what it is, it just won't be half the game it could've been had it been "Super Metroid 3D".
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