The "General Games Chat" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
Most people are probably aware that the PC can work pretty impressively at times as an emulator of Playstation and N64 games. Some people claim that games can even work better in this way than on the original console (better resolution, shorter load times, etc).
But does this really do any good for the games industry? Sony went out of their way to stop commercial emulators such as Bleem, but the freeware versions, still being updated today, have had no such attack.
One thing that is sometimes forgotten is that even playing a Playstation Emulator on a PC, you still need to have got hold of a real playstation game disk. On the other hand, you can sometimes play from the hard disk, and N64 games can be downloaded illegally from the web.
Another thing to note is that emulation of newer consoles is all but impossible. People have tried with the PS2, but any emulation will not run proper games, and there has been no serious attempt at Gamecube or X-Box emulation. (The most ever seen are GUIs, usually with some sort of virus attatched)
Personally, I believe that there is no harm in emulation as many people use it - playing official copies of PSX on a PC only encourages sales of older games. However, as it is, there is not really any need to buy the games themselves. PSX games can be copied to the hard-disk, and it is almost possible to play real N64 games on the PC - contary to what some sites say, downloading ROM images is illegal for any period of time, whether or not you own the game, just as making the images available publically is also illegal.
The best thing for the industry, in my opinion, would be if Sony offered their support for emulation. I can't really see this happening (in fact, it almost certainly won't), but I believe that it would help everyone. Sony could help develop PC emulation for old consoles, and provide adequate copy protection to stop the emulators from playing from copied games. Non-authorised emulators could be closed down in the same way as Sony have with Bleem.
Not only would this help prevent piracy, if the emulator remained freeware, no-one would realistically be annoyed except for those playing illegal games. Manufacturers have never made much money from consoles themselves - it all comes from the games. Sony could also make sure that PS2 emulation was not introduced until they were absolutely sure that it would not take away from PS2 sales - when the console is essentially dead.
Of course, I really can't imagine any of this happening, and the cartridge format of the dying N64 would make this very difficult for Nintendo, without offering some sort of PC hardware that could accept the cartridges. Somehow, the way things are going, this seems even more unlikely. But it seems crazy to me that large companies are grumbling about something that could potentially make them much more money.
Any opinions on this? Perhaps someone could offer a fuller explanation about why manufacturers have never done any of this - I suppose the biggest problem is that it would be expenisve initially, there is no guarantee that it would make money, and it goes against principles that have been upheld in the past.
Ah well,
See Ya ;-)
PinkPig
But does this really do any good for the games industry? Sony went out of their way to stop commercial emulators such as Bleem, but the freeware versions, still being updated today, have had no such attack.
One thing that is sometimes forgotten is that even playing a Playstation Emulator on a PC, you still need to have got hold of a real playstation game disk. On the other hand, you can sometimes play from the hard disk, and N64 games can be downloaded illegally from the web.
Another thing to note is that emulation of newer consoles is all but impossible. People have tried with the PS2, but any emulation will not run proper games, and there has been no serious attempt at Gamecube or X-Box emulation. (The most ever seen are GUIs, usually with some sort of virus attatched)
Personally, I believe that there is no harm in emulation as many people use it - playing official copies of PSX on a PC only encourages sales of older games. However, as it is, there is not really any need to buy the games themselves. PSX games can be copied to the hard-disk, and it is almost possible to play real N64 games on the PC - contary to what some sites say, downloading ROM images is illegal for any period of time, whether or not you own the game, just as making the images available publically is also illegal.
The best thing for the industry, in my opinion, would be if Sony offered their support for emulation. I can't really see this happening (in fact, it almost certainly won't), but I believe that it would help everyone. Sony could help develop PC emulation for old consoles, and provide adequate copy protection to stop the emulators from playing from copied games. Non-authorised emulators could be closed down in the same way as Sony have with Bleem.
Not only would this help prevent piracy, if the emulator remained freeware, no-one would realistically be annoyed except for those playing illegal games. Manufacturers have never made much money from consoles themselves - it all comes from the games. Sony could also make sure that PS2 emulation was not introduced until they were absolutely sure that it would not take away from PS2 sales - when the console is essentially dead.
Of course, I really can't imagine any of this happening, and the cartridge format of the dying N64 would make this very difficult for Nintendo, without offering some sort of PC hardware that could accept the cartridges. Somehow, the way things are going, this seems even more unlikely. But it seems crazy to me that large companies are grumbling about something that could potentially make them much more money.
Any opinions on this? Perhaps someone could offer a fuller explanation about why manufacturers have never done any of this - I suppose the biggest problem is that it would be expenisve initially, there is no guarantee that it would make money, and it goes against principles that have been upheld in the past.
Ah well,
See Ya ;-)
PinkPig
Page:
http://www.theshorthorn.com/archive/ 2001/fall/01-oct-23/sc102301-01.html
(SPACES)
about half way down under the section Is it legal, makes the claim of people having to delete them after 24 hours. I have looked through a lot of the laws as well on this (As part of my computer science degree) and I have yet to see anywhere which says this rule is not real. I haven't been able to find any *very reliable sources* either which say it is 100% true and people by law must delete them, any links would be helpful.
(SPACES)
about half way down under the section Is it legal, makes the claim of people having to delete them after 24 hours. I have looked through a lot of the laws as well on this (As part of my computer science degree) and I have yet to see anywhere which says this rule is not real. I haven't been able to find any *very reliable sources* either which say it is 100% true and people by law must delete them, any links would be helpful.
There is NO 24 hour rule - it's completely made up.
It's a case of if enough people believe it then it becomes the truth, but the fact of the matter is that no such rule exists (or has ever existed).
I have read various reports on software copyright (as part of a degree course, I'm not just sad!) and several of them have drawn attention to this particular subject and dismissed it as pure fantasy.
I'll try and dig a couple out and copy out a paragraph or so for your reading pleasures.
Having said that, I love retro emulation! Commodore 64 games with only a few seconds loading time? Pure gaming bliss!
It's a case of if enough people believe it then it becomes the truth, but the fact of the matter is that no such rule exists (or has ever existed).
I have read various reports on software copyright (as part of a degree course, I'm not just sad!) and several of them have drawn attention to this particular subject and dismissed it as pure fantasy.
I'll try and dig a couple out and copy out a paragraph or so for your reading pleasures.
Having said that, I love retro emulation! Commodore 64 games with only a few seconds loading time? Pure gaming bliss!
>
> No you can download them and keep them for 24 hours, you are only
> allowed to keep the ROM longer than that if you own the original copy
> of the games as well. It is the law and you will find it on a lot of
> places on the web those for and against distributation of ROMS on the
> net.
OK, If you say so - I don't really know. I bet Nintendo disagree, though, and I'm sure that reputable magazines have argued that the law has no 24 hour clause - it seems very strange to me. I'll try and find out more.
Also, well done on winning your prize,
See Ya ;-)
PinkPig
> No you can download them and keep them for 24 hours, you are only
> allowed to keep the ROM longer than that if you own the original copy
> of the games as well. It is the law and you will find it on a lot of
> places on the web those for and against distributation of ROMS on the
> net.
OK, If you say so - I don't really know. I bet Nintendo disagree, though, and I'm sure that reputable magazines have argued that the law has no 24 hour clause - it seems very strange to me. I'll try and find out more.
Also, well done on winning your prize,
See Ya ;-)
PinkPig
I think, now the old-generation consoles are no longer going to sell, Sony Nintendo and Sega should bring out emulator software, or PC versions of the games. This would increase their sales, and mean that you cannot download it, but have to buy the game as well. The amiga died a while ago, and there were emulators available for it later, and on the Amiga itself there were Atari emulators or something, but they didn't appear til the respective console died!
I don't think emulators are all that bad, but priacy costs the game industry loads and is part of the reason games cost a lot. Piracy is what games developers are cracking down on more now, and besides anything else, they are unreliable. There is also the problem that if you get your Playstation chipped, it could cause a fault and you will no longer be covered by the warranty, but anyone who gets their playstation chipped is asking for it, right?
I don't think emulators are all that bad, but priacy costs the game industry loads and is part of the reason games cost a lot. Piracy is what games developers are cracking down on more now, and besides anything else, they are unreliable. There is also the problem that if you get your Playstation chipped, it could cause a fault and you will no longer be covered by the warranty, but anyone who gets their playstation chipped is asking for it, right?
Emulation is all well and good in a retro point of view; getting to play all your favourites that are nowhere to be seen today. But this 24 Hour rule doesn't really give you enough time to do anything.
Maybe if after a certain amount of years, games could be emulated legaly and kept for however you want. Retro collecters will love it. Anyone else won't really care about playing good old classics.
There's one more thing though, if emulators had an invisible tag (Like WinZip downloads) that made them useless after 24Hours then the problem would be solved, but i'm sure even after this rule ROMs will be destributed in the way they are today.
Nice post ;-)
Maybe if after a certain amount of years, games could be emulated legaly and kept for however you want. Retro collecters will love it. Anyone else won't really care about playing good old classics.
There's one more thing though, if emulators had an invisible tag (Like WinZip downloads) that made them useless after 24Hours then the problem would be solved, but i'm sure even after this rule ROMs will be destributed in the way they are today.
Nice post ;-)
PinkPig wrote:
> One thing I think you're wrong about though is being able to keep ROMS
> for 24 hours. Emulation sites on the web say this, of course, but the
> law has no exemption over short periods. Distribution of ROM images
> over the net is illegal, whoever you intend will download them, just
> as is downloading copyrighted any copyrighted files. I think that the
> 24-rule has been made up by someone clever to give illegal sites some
> sort of authentic touch,
No you can download them and keep them for 24 hours, you are only allowed to keep the ROM longer than that if you own the original copy of the games as well. It is the law and you will find it on a lot of places on the web those for and against distributation of ROMS on the net.
> One thing I think you're wrong about though is being able to keep ROMS
> for 24 hours. Emulation sites on the web say this, of course, but the
> law has no exemption over short periods. Distribution of ROM images
> over the net is illegal, whoever you intend will download them, just
> as is downloading copyrighted any copyrighted files. I think that the
> 24-rule has been made up by someone clever to give illegal sites some
> sort of authentic touch,
No you can download them and keep them for 24 hours, you are only allowed to keep the ROM longer than that if you own the original copy of the games as well. It is the law and you will find it on a lot of places on the web those for and against distributation of ROMS on the net.
Phi11ip wrote:
> And just a question, how do you put cartridge games onto a PC? I don't
> get it?
You have to buy a rom dumper, you put the cartridge in and it copies the data to a file. It is either put onto removeable media or copied directly to a PC via cable.
The process can be reversed, ie you download a Snes/GBA/N64 game and can copy it to the unit and play it on the original harware.
The reason they never took off to the extent of, say, chipping your playstation is that they are hugely expensive, about £200 for a Snes backup unit (at todays prices, must have been more when they first came out!)
> And just a question, how do you put cartridge games onto a PC? I don't
> get it?
You have to buy a rom dumper, you put the cartridge in and it copies the data to a file. It is either put onto removeable media or copied directly to a PC via cable.
The process can be reversed, ie you download a Snes/GBA/N64 game and can copy it to the unit and play it on the original harware.
The reason they never took off to the extent of, say, chipping your playstation is that they are hugely expensive, about £200 for a Snes backup unit (at todays prices, must have been more when they first came out!)
0-MessiaH-0 wrote:
> GameCube games are near-impossible to RIP or do bad things with.
> Their smaller size is one reason. The second is that they are encoded.
> The third is that the surface of the disc is actually curved, so
> normal lasers will not be able to read the disc properly.
But it's gonna get cracked somehow, somebody is going to sit down and design a piece of software or modify their hardware. Just so tht they can crack the games.
It's like fighting P2P sharing programs, as soon as one is taken down, another appears just like that!
And just a question, how do you put cartridge games onto a PC? I don't get it?
> GameCube games are near-impossible to RIP or do bad things with.
> Their smaller size is one reason. The second is that they are encoded.
> The third is that the surface of the disc is actually curved, so
> normal lasers will not be able to read the disc properly.
But it's gonna get cracked somehow, somebody is going to sit down and design a piece of software or modify their hardware. Just so tht they can crack the games.
It's like fighting P2P sharing programs, as soon as one is taken down, another appears just like that!
And just a question, how do you put cartridge games onto a PC? I don't get it?
GameCube games are near-impossible to RIP or do bad things with. Their smaller size is one reason. The second is that they are encoded. The third is that the surface of the disc is actually curved, so normal lasers will not be able to read the disc properly.
Very valid points
I agree that X-Box / GC / PS2 emulation is a bad idea, and Nintendo are very much against it because it just encourages Piracy.
One thing I think you're wrong about though is being able to keep ROMS for 24 hours. Emulation sites on the web say this, of course, but the law has no exemption over short periods. Distribution of ROM images over the net is illegal, whoever you intend will download them, just as is downloading copyrighted any copyrighted files. I think that the 24-rule has been made up by someone clever to give illegal sites some sort of authentic touch,
See Ya ;-)
PinkPig
I agree that X-Box / GC / PS2 emulation is a bad idea, and Nintendo are very much against it because it just encourages Piracy.
One thing I think you're wrong about though is being able to keep ROMS for 24 hours. Emulation sites on the web say this, of course, but the law has no exemption over short periods. Distribution of ROM images over the net is illegal, whoever you intend will download them, just as is downloading copyrighted any copyrighted files. I think that the 24-rule has been made up by someone clever to give illegal sites some sort of authentic touch,
See Ya ;-)
PinkPig
Page: